PipeChat Digest #4193 - Friday, January 2, 2004
 
Rite II, my rector's apparelled alb! (caution: rant ahead)
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: PipeChat Digest #4190 - 01/02/04
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: PipeChat Digest #4191 - 01/02/04
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk>
The Old Gen. Seminary Roosevelt, etc.
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
(no subject)
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Parish demographics and finding an organist
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: PipeChat Digest #4190 - 01/02/04
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
Recital schedules
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: Iconoclasm & art (long)
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Is the Church in a bad way?
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
RTR FM
  by "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com>
Re: RTR FM
  by "Greg Corbett" <corbettg@theatreorgans.com>
IRC
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: PipeChat Digest #4192 - 01/02/04
  by <hydrant@baskerbeagles.com>
 

(back) Subject: Rite II, my rector's apparelled alb! (caution: rant ahead) From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 11:41:29 -0800       DERREINETOR@aol.com wrote: > Colin, > > There is certainly a "via media"--at least at my Parish. > > We were a mission church of the Cowley Fathers from about 1880 until > around 1986, when we became a Parish in the Episcopal Diocese of > Massachusetts (interestingly, our current Bishop is SSJE). For some > years before 1880, our Bowdoin St. building was the site of the Church > of the Advent, before it moved to Brimmer St. Before that, the building > was a Congregational Church whose pastor was Lyman Beecher, the uncle of =   > Harriet Beecher Stowe, and was a major stop on the Underground Railroad. > > Currently, our liturgy is what I would call "Rite II Anglo-Catholic" > (see the ECUSA BCP). That is, contemporary language making use of both > Gregorian and Sarum Rite chant and with a Schola Cantorum with a > repertoire which spans the centuries (up to the present--I write for > them often) which includes but is not limited to the "Cathedral > Tradition".   I would call it "anglo-papist" ... Rite II has no historical authority in the Anglican Church. If I want that liturgy, there are a zillion Roman churches I can attend.   As an aside, some members of this list have lamented the > 1979 revision of our BCP. I have never understood the objection, as our > "Rite I" is to 98% identical to the 1928 US Prayerbook. There was always =   > the option (which remains to this day) to use the American Missal (a > prissy, "spiky" document indeed).   Nor do I see any need to disparage the Missal. Generations of faithful anglo-catholics worshipped with it; many Saints were formed by its spirituality; I wonder if your Cowley Fathers would be amused at your characterization ... after all, they PRODUCED the American Missal.   As an Anglo-Catholic, I applaud the > "new" prayerbook, as "Rite II" signifies a theological triumph of the > "Catholic party" over the low-churchmen while being accomodating, > especially where Eucharistic theology is concerned.   What's to be applauded? the demise of the Book of Common Prayer?   What's to be accommodated? The Catholic Faith admits of no accomodation, OR reform. It is Revealed Truth. Either it is the Mass, or it isn't. Either Christ pleads his "one, true, pure, immortal Sacrifice" on Mount Calvary before God the Father for the living and the dead in every Mass, or he doesn't. There IS no "via media" where THAT'S concerned.   Rite II has also > become the norm in the United States, thankfully.   I see no reason to thank ANYBODY that the historical Book of Common Prayer has been overturned for a mess of pottage and language more appropriate to government bureaucracy than the worship of Almighty God.   I also note that the sorrowful reality of Rite II becoming the norm in US Episcopal churches has resulted in (1) services that are odorless, colorless, and tasteless; and (2) the demolishing of MANY outstanding ANGLICAN music programs.   Older A-C practices, > such as the "Last Gospel" or reciting the Angelus before the "Ite Missa > Est" still remain as options--and we at St. John's make use of them = often. > > What is attractive about our Parish, however, runs deeper than fine > music and liturgy. In the spirit of our roots as a parish steeped in > social justice and in the spirit of the Oxford Movement, we run a soup > kitchen seven days per week. We also host activities for the homeless > and poor such as painting and provide counseling for those wanting to > get off the street or into treatment centres. EVERYONE is invited to our =   > worship, though none compelled to come in order to receive social > services. If they do come, they find people from all classes and walks > of life dressed casually--who give the "kiss of peace" to everyone, > Boston Brahmin and Street-dweller alike.   That, at least, is true to the teachings of Fr. Dolling and the early anglo-catholics; it was also true of EVERY anglo-catholic parish I served, Missal on the altar or no.   > > We have excellent preaching and adult education. All are welcome. Though =   > we are "high church", we are socially liberal and inclusive--in short, > "Anglican"--embracing Scripture, Tradition and Reason. The Right Rev'd > V. Gene Robinson preached at our Rector's installation last year, for > example.   Our churches were quietly inclusive before "Prayer Book Revision" was a malevolent gleam in the devil's eye. I don't see the connection between the two.   > > We are growing and thriving. It's a great example of the possibilities > of the Anglican "via media". The combination of fine preaching, liturgy > and music (Scripture and Tradition) and Reason (adult education, > outreach, inclusiveness, modern language) is working for us. Who needs a =   > guitar Mass? > > Bill H. > St. John's, Bowdoin St., Boston MA   What's NEEDED is a place that will allow us older anglo-catholics to DIE in the Faith and the liturgy that we were BAPTIZED into.   I have left strict instructions that the new Prayer Book is NOT to be used for my Last Rites OR funeral, and if a Rite II priest appears at my deathbed, if I'm conscious, I will send him away. Better to face the Last Judgement unshriven than to have the sound of that pernicious drivel be the last thing I hear on this earth!   I was born a traditional anglo-catholic; I was raised a traditional anglo-catholic; I served the Church for fifty years as a traditional anglo-catholic; and I intend to DIE a traditional anglo-catholic     Cheers,   Bud Clark San Diego        
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4190 - 01/02/04 From: "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 19:53:42 +0000 (GMT)   Isn't a bit invidious to claim "xxx" as "first lady of the organ" however excellent she may be? There are several women organists out there who might lay claim to this title. (Though I still think the organ is a man's instrument!) John Foss   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : Opera Censorship and the right to silence   ________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html  
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4191 - 01/02/04 From: "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 19:57:07 +0000 (GMT)   Stroking cats has been shown to lower your blood pressure. I stroke mine regularly! John Foss   Colin Mitchell wrote "Babble away on pipechat and stroke the cat."     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : Opera Censorship and the right to silence   ________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html  
(back) Subject: The Old Gen. Seminary Roosevelt, etc. From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:02:17 -0500   Greetings of the New Year,   I don't know what happened to the Roosevelt at General. I left for Canada = in 1966, and whatever happened to it happened after that. I agree fully with Peter about that Holtkamp. I think it is one of the finest Organs Walter = Sr. ever made. I don't recall what year it was, but I well remember Fenner Douglass's dedication recital. By invitation, I was also there for his practice the day before, and was happy to have all that chance of soaking = up those lovely sounds. The recital was one of those occasions at which just about every Organist of note in New York was present.   I am not sure what recordings there are of that instrument. I do remember that Weinrich made at least one.   When I said earlier that my partner and I often attended Evensong at the Seminary on Sundays, I could have mentioned that this was part of our = quite regular routine, taking advantage of what The City churches (not that = City, Colin) had to offer musically of a Sunday afternoon and evening. We could choose from the Cathedral, St. Mary the Virgin, and the Seminary among others, and somehow, the times allowed for a visit to all three. At St. Mary's, it was McNeill Robinson who improvised sometimes as one possessed. The choir did a wonderfully diverse repertoire. At the Cathedral, it was = the splendid choir of Boys and Men under Alec. There were, of course, other places, but I think those three were the most interesting most of the = time. There was a newspaper, the late, lamented "World Telegram and Sun" that = had a church music listing each Saturday, a super useful service, not now available anywhere that I know of except what one can glean from TAO listings.   So be it,   Malcolm Wechsler www.mander-organs.com   ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@cox.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 11:40 AM Subject: Re: Musical Training for the Clergy in Seminary     > I'm fond of the General Seminary Holtkamp, but what happened to the > Roosevelt? > > Cheers, > > Bud > > Storandt, Peter wrote: > > > And, of course, David has the splendid successor Holtkamp to support = his > > musicianship.... > >      
(back) Subject: From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:16:40 -0600     Bud said: But a lot of our colleagues can't seem to grasp that that DEVALUES music in the eyes of the congregation and governing body. "You get what you pay for." Nobody expects a plumber to fix to pipes for nothing; nobody expects the roofer to mend the roof for nothing."   I dunno, Bud. In the circles in which I've run, plumbers, roofers, electricians, etc. OFTEN donated their services to the churches of which they were a member. To me, the value of the service is not determined by whether or not the provider is paid to do it.\     Responding to Alan Freed--I don't have a specific source for the average size of a congregation offhand, but I believe it to be accurate. I am the only organist in my congregation, not my denomination. I am Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), and we have some very fine organists and some fine colleges.   The denomination of my youth was a historically related group known as the "independent Christian churches and churches of Christ."   Both these are demographically middle class groups without a strong liturgical tradition.   However, we all know it is difficult to engage a competent organist--and yes, I suspect it's primarily salary related. Even if we could all instantly pay $50K a year to our musicians, there would still be a shortage for several years until supply would catch up!   Oh, and Bud, the small symphony orchestras with which I have any familiarity--professional orchestras, but NOT top tier, typically struggle to pay $12-17K for a nine month season. The players augment their salaries by teaching and by summer engagements and whatever.   Dennis Steckley          
(back) Subject: Parish demographics and finding an organist From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 15:45:02 -0500   On 1/2/04 3:16 PM, "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> wrote:   > Responding to Alan Freed--I don't have a specific source for the average > size of a congregation offhand, but I believe it to be accurate. I am > the only organist in my congregation, not my denomination. I am > Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), and we have some very fine > organists and some fine colleges.   That's OK, Dennis; I'll see what I can dig up, and share it with you. I think it will support what you've said. And I'm glad to hear about your schools. I KNOW you have some fine organs and organists; it=B9s been AGES, but I recall hearing very good things about First National City Christian Church (approximately!!) in Washington, D.C. LBJ=B9s church, during his administration, as I recall. >=20 > The denomination of my youth was a historically related group known as > the "independent Christian churches and churches of Christ." >=20 > Both these are demographically middle class groups without a strong > liturgical tradition. >=20 > However, we all know it is difficult to engage a competent organist--and > yes, I suspect it's primarily salary related. Even if we could all > instantly pay $50K a year to our musicians, there would still be a > shortage for several years until supply would catch up!   Oh yes indeed! $50K would be neat bait, all right. We're terribly lucky i= n NYC because I think many organists come here for study, retital-going, etc. And, I suppose, just for the "prestige" of having served any post (even at poor salary, and HIGH cost of living) in the Big Apple. (We have a few ric= h parishes here, of course; but most, like mine, pinch the pennies just like anywhere else.)   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4190 - 01/02/04 From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 15:41:22 -0600   Now, now, John, please don't tell me I shouldn't play ;-) Alicia -who wouldn't give the organist in question the title either   -----Original Message----- From: John Foss <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> (Though I still think the organ is a > man's instrument!) > John Foss      
(back) Subject: Recital schedules From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 15:36:37 -0600   Lately I've been getting my info on organ recitals from the season listings in The Diapason - better than TAO in some cases. Although I must say that the latest edition of TAO was a fount of information on several subjects - I was pleasantly surprised at how much I learned.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com (whose Molly had a traumatic experience with a Walmart shopping bag today)   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Malcolm Wechsler   There was a newspaper, the late, lamented "World Telegram and Sun" that had a church music listing each Saturday, a super useful service, not now available anywhere that I know of except what one can glean from TAO listings.          
(back) Subject: Re: Iconoclasm & art (long) From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 15:29:32 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   As the reply was addressed to me, I must offer a few thoughts in response.   OF COURSE the essential ethos of Christianity may be conveyed by a whole spectrum of presentation....God knows, I see it all on cable TV!! (Just love those American preachers with tears rolling down their faces!)   However, I often wonder if there wasn't a "moment" when everything suddenly changed....not an exact "moment", but more a period in time of perhaps a decade or two.   For arguments sake, let's call it the 60's and 70's, which correspond to the start of the period of decline in church attendance which continues to this day.   What is the problem?   Is it Christianity itself?   Is it a lack of faith?   Is it a conflict of belief?     Of all the four questions I pose, the second one is the least problematic. I firmly believe that Christianity (and also aspects of Islam and even Buddhism) is as relevant to-day as it has always been. Indeed, the foundation of Christianity has shaped much of the western world, and been enshrined in law as well as a sense of good neighbourliness. That foundation can find many, many expressions through different styles of presentation. I have no quibble with that variety.   However, the internal foundation of the wider church, is more often than not, based on the historical "faith of our fathers" philosophy. How many times I have heard sermons attempt to justify "traditional belief" and "the word of God" I have lost count, but I know that such expressions of faith fall upon deaf ears in many instances.....even in church!   How then, does anyone expect traditional faith to have the slightest influence on the non-believer?   In the age of communication, I perceive religious faith as a poor relation to scholarly research and scientific, evidential presentation, and I make no apology for the fact that I regard Genesis as trash; no matter how inspired the guesswork.   I can therefore do without the various creeds (which I refuse to utter) which make a mockery of the evidence.   I don't NEED Jesus to be born of a Jewish family or born of a virgin, in the hope that this meets with approval by my peers.   I don't NEED one holy, catholic and apostolic church.   Much as I admire the beauty and imagination of Jewish religious writing, I don't NEED it.   Other than the fact that "you can't keep a good man down", I don't NEED a resurrection.   Even less do I NEED angels, archangels, seraphim, cherubims, fields of wheat, tribalism, tedious genealogy, irrelevant customs, deeply suspicious miracles, holy shrouds, miracle cures, burning bushes or holy water. I'm afraid that, to me, this is merely the "religion industry."   God knows, if I wanted this, I could just take up voodoo and pretend that I had special powers!!   I'm sorry to be so hard hitting, but this to me is the chasm that traditional religion has to bridge in the contemporary world, and using the imagery of yesteryear or "the faith of our fathers" is about as practical as attempting to teach my cat Latin.   As a contemporary person in a contemporary world, I feel huge frustration that I cannot express, musically, the faith I DO NEED to express, because the lazy, self indulgent, backward looking clergy of today have failed to deliver.   I DON'T NEED supercharged tradition posing as modern liturgy. I want NEW LITURGY and NEW UNDERSTANDINGS which reflect the knowledge and science of TODAY.   I'll tell you something for free, absolutely NOTHING WOULD CHANGE in the Christian message, WHICH WE ALL NEED.   Sorry to be so abrasive!   Love one another and have a good New Year.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK       --- DERREINETOR@aol.com wrote: > Colin, > > There is certainly a "via media"--at least at my > Parish......   > What is attractive about our Parish, however, runs > deeper than fine music and > liturgy. In the spirit of our roots as a parish > steeped in social justice   __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/  
(back) Subject: Is the Church in a bad way? From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 19:35:32 -0500   Colin wrote;   >What is the problem? > >Is it Christianity itself? > >Is it a lack of faith? > >Is it a conflict of belief?   To which I have to put my tuppence worth in;   None of the above!   It is Materialism, pure and simple! Since World War II we have been bombarded with the need to buy, buy, buy! - and we have succumbed to the concept that if you see it, you have to have it!   Earlier this week there was a comment on the fact that Television was the cause of there being so few Church musicians available, and what do we see =   most of the time on Television? - Buy, buy, buy!   Where our forefathers made do with what they had, we seem to have to buy everything that is offered. No matter what, the only thing that counts is =   the Almighty Dollar, - whether you are making it or spending it. My perception on this is that the acquisition of "stuff" is uppermost in peoples minds, and the last thing that they want to hear is the = mumbo-jumbo that the preachers dissemble week by week.   I am a Christian, but seldom go to church, for the simple reason that although the basic tenets are there, it is also the place where some = people will show off their worldly possessions. In fact, if it were not for the music, I think that a lot of people would stop going.   The Ministers are preaching a tale that nobody can really believe any = more, - Genesis, the Virgin Birth, Miracles, Resurrection, - you name it, - in this day and age it is simply not believed any longer. The reality is = that we can buy our way through this world, and sometimes even help others not so well off, - but you do not need to be a member of any Faith to do that.   The real truth is that we should all be living to help one and other, this =   is one of the needs of this world, - but Messrs. Bush and Blair, with plenty of others like them prefer that we only listen to the sound of success - measured by the Almighty Dollar.   Take away the crassness of materialism, and we might be well on the road = to being a better bunch of people.   Happy New Year to you all!   Bob Conway        
(back) Subject: RTR FM From: "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 21:01:07 -0500   Hey gang,   Anyone getting RTR FM? I can get live365 and then silence.   Cheers, Mack    
(back) Subject: Re: RTR FM From: "Greg Corbett" <corbettg@theatreorgans.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 18:10:41 -0800   Me too, real dead silence! I flipped a message to RTR, hopefully there is = a tech kicking around that can resolve. ----- Original Message ----- From: "mack02445" <mack02445@mindspring.com> To: "Pipechat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:01 PM Subject: RTR FM     > Hey gang, > > Anyone getting RTR FM? I can get live365 and then silence. > > Cheers, > Mack > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >        
(back) Subject: IRC From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 18:18:18 -0800   Waiting for Father John to bring me Holy Communion from the 5:30 Mass at the Cathedral ... I'll be on shortly.   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4192 - 01/02/04 From: <hydrant@baskerbeagles.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 22:12:38 -0500       ---- Original message ---- >Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 13:34:02 -0600 >From: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> >Subject: PipeChat Digest #4192 - 01/02/04 >To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > >PipeChat Digest #4192 - Friday, January 2, 2004 > > RE: Musical Training for the Clergy in Seminary > by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> > Re: Musical Training for the Clergy in Seminary > by <quilisma@cox.net> > Re: Playing the organ > by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> > RE: Musical Training for the Clergy in Seminary > by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> > Re: Iconoclasm & art (long) > by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> > Re: Iconoclasm & art (long) > by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> > Re: Iconoclasm & art (long) > by "chemphill" <chemphill@wi.rr.com> > BAARPIJP > by "Charlie Lester" <crlester@137.com> > Re: Iconoclasm & art (long) > by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> > Re: Musical Training for the Clergy in Seminary > by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> > RE: Musical Training for the Clergy in Seminary > by "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> > Re: Iconoclasm & art (long) > by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> > Re: BAARPIJP > by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> > Re: Musical Training for the Clergy in Seminary > by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> > Re: Musical Training for the Clergy in Seminary > by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> > Re: Musical Training for the Clergy in Seminary > by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> > RE: Musical Training for the Clergy in Seminary > by "Paul Marshall" <p.marsh@rcn.com> > > >------------------------------------------------------------- --------- > >Subject: RE: Musical Training for the Clergy in Seminary >From: "Storandt, Peter" <pstorandt@okcu.edu> >Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 10:26:01 -0600 > >And, of course, David has the splendid successor Holtkamp to support his >musicianship.... > >-----Original Message----- >From: Alan Freed >Subject: Musical Training for the Clergy in Seminary   >> Does your denomination have colleges? With music departments? Is there pressure on those departments (if they exist) to PRODUCE at least mildly competent musicians? Is that a way to go? (I think it's made a HUGE difference for Lutherans.)>   It has also made a significant difference for the Southern Baptists, as well. For the most part, the "Minister of Music" in a Baptist Church is clergy, and thereby receives salary and benefits. Unfortunately, there are few, if any, Music Ministers who also play the organ, since "arm waving" seems to be a very important part of the job. Accompanists, pianists and organists, are considered support staff and are quite often volunteers and occupy a position pretty far down on the staff hydrant. No benefits, little salary, and very seldom even get their names in the bulletin, although secretaries do (as upper level support staff). But, as with many protestant denominations, practice and custom vary widely.     >Subject: Re: Playing the organ >From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>   >Well, Dennis, you certainly COULD in some congregations. And you DO. ... It would be a (literal) reach in most Lutheran parishes. Bordering on the impossible. Think of the Preface-Sanctus! A lot of things that are usually >accompanied would just have to be a cappella. But that's not terrible, either! But if you WANT a sung/accompanied "Per ipsum" and Agnus Dei, OY! >   This is easily solved by having a keyboard wired to the main organ. This keyboard could be discreetly placed on the communion table or, in more contemporary/permissive parishes worn around the neck much like a gittar. If the main organ is blessedly a tracker, then the communion table could be built around a very carefully designed portative.   <You could certainly do Prelude and Postlude (thus making the job easier for a marginal sub)--but people might "miss" you at the door after service. >   If the console/keydest is located other than in a gallery, it shouldn't be a problem. People love sitting on the bench and chatting with the organist during postludes. ;-) Scritchies and Haruffaroo-bahawow...   Bruce and the Baskerbeagles http://baskerbeagles.com a great way to shop http://www.smartmall.biz?717886 HELP FEED ANIMALS FOR FREE http://tinyurl.com/2j5i and = http://pets.care2.com