PipeChat Digest #4207 - Wednesday, January 7, 2004
 
Re: Beethoven ... ?
  by "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com>
Re: extreme examples from the 60's and 70's
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Beethoven ... ?
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Carpeting etc.
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Spooky
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: The Eight Little
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Beethoven ... ?
  by "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net>
Re: Carpeting etc.
  by "Del Case" <dcase@puc.edu>
Re: Carpeting etc.
  by "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Carpeting etc.
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: The RCO on line for a move
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk>
... the queasier they get...
  by "Charlie Lester" <crlester@137.com>
RE: Beethoven ... ?
  by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve>
RE: Choral music for K-1
  by "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net>
Re:  Gregorian Chant accompaniments
  by <bruce.shaw@shaw.ca>
Re: Banjo/organ? + accordian
  by <bruce.shaw@shaw.ca>
Re: Gregorian Chant accompaniments
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Epiphany Service - Trinity, Wall Street
  by <OrganNYC@aol.com>
Re: 8 short etc.
  by <bruce.shaw@shaw.ca>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Beethoven ... ? From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:11:52 -0600   Since it appears that no one else has responded, I'll try. Beckmann lists, as original organ works:   2 Praeludien durch alle Tonarten (or Circular Preludes), Op. 39, for = Klavier or Organ 5 pieces for Floetenuhr, WoO 33/1-5 Organ Fugue in D (John Henderson labels this Op. 137, from 1783) Prelude in f, WoO 55 Prelude in e, HV 29   He also lists many dozen transcriptions. Bob Lind   ----- Original Message ----- From: MusicMan <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>   > I know that he wrote some idiosyncratic pieces (which are seldom performed) > for odd and peculiar combinations, so, enlighten me, gentle readers, = about > his organ output (if amy ?). > > Harry [|musician] Grove    
(back) Subject: Re: extreme examples from the 60's and 70's From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 04:39:04 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Of course no-one was listening!   That is a very old English tradition which we jealously preserve to this day!   Let's get serious for a moment.........   If you go back to the 18th century, the vast majority of clergymen were utter twits......some would argue that they still are. They came from very respectable families, were seldom in the parish, delegated spiritual work to curates and drew huge incomes from tithes.   Spiritually, the Reformation did very little for England, but politically, as in Holland, it enabled the merchant classes to gain the upper hand and break away from the theocracy of Rome; which, of course, had controlled the finances of Europe.   It was only with non-conformity, revivalist activity, strict morality, some sound teaching and the desire to improve society, which witnessed a re-birth in active "religion" in the 19th century. In effect, "religion" probably staved off revolution, and did give us, at least, a sense of social justice and law enforcement.   As for "the Word of God," I expect it was buried among all this somewhere, and after the Reformation, at least people could read it for themselves; no matter how corrupted and elaborated the "Word" had become.   I suspect that the greatest miracle of all, was not the Resurrection, but the fact that Christianity has survived in England......a land of free-thinking eccentrics if ever there was one!   I confess.......(rare).......that I listened to a sermon last week, because the priest was talking about the origins of the Universe and God's hand in it all. For once, I wasn't offended, for he took the agnostic stance for fear of limiting the infinity of creation to his own finite understanding.   Afterwards, I approached him, told him a couple of jokes about cosmology and then said, "I think we have to examine our consciences, and decide if the will of God is best served by the study of sub-atomic particles."   It reminds me of the delightful oversight uttered by the Methodist Minister, who said in his summing up,"Are we going to be awake and ready, like the wise virgins, or are we going to sleep with the unwise virgins!"   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- Cole <rcolev@woh.rr.com> wrote:   > No doubt, it was "heard". Was anybody listening? > > Ross Coulson "Cole" Votaw -- Springfield, Ohio, USA >     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus  
(back) Subject: Re: Beethoven ... ? From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 04:47:13 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Now this IS interesting......   Ever since the 1960's, I have been aware of some superb "organ music" by Beethoven.   Now, I have to try a remember the source of this enlightenment spanning 40 years.   "If" I remember correctly, a certain Wilhelm Culmbach (Kulmbach?) in Germany, re-created some very fine student exercises of Beethoven's into playable Trio Sonaten. They were broadcast by the BBC on Radio 3, probably sometime between 1966 and 1968, and the music was absolutely superb.   It seems that Beethoven wrote these exercises whilst making a careful study of Bach's music, and assuming that most of the notes are actually by Beethoven, I think it would be fair to say that he matched Bach in quality.   Does anyone remember this, or know of the sources?   Actually, I MAY still have that broadcast on reel to reel mono tape, along with some other fascinating material from the same period.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK       --- Robert Lind <lindr@core.com> wrote: > Since it appears that no one else has responded, > I'll try. Beckmann lists, > as original organ works: > > 2 Praeludien durch alle Tonarten (or Circular > Preludes), Op. 39, for Klavier > or Organ > 5 pieces for Floetenuhr, WoO 33/1-5 > Organ Fugue in D (John Henderson labels this Op. > 137, from 1783) > Prelude in f, WoO 55 > Prelude in e, HV 29 > > He also lists many dozen transcriptions. > Bob Lind >     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus  
(back) Subject: Re: Carpeting etc. From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 04:58:28 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Aha! That explains that other bit of escaping gas we know as "The lost chord."   Using the same thinking, Sullivans "Lost Chord" and a triumphal trump at King's College, Cambridge, would combine to make a forty fart motet.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> wrote: As Sir David > Willcocks is reported to have said of King's College > Chapel in Cambridge, > "in an acoustic like this a fart sounds like a > sevenfold Amen."     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus  
(back) Subject: Spooky From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 05:15:19 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   I am all a jitter!   I do a lot of work for "Parcelforce" (GPO...UK post office) and I have been in the old station at Birmingham!   To hear that it is to become the new HQ of the RCO is...well....spooky!   I think the new organ should have a Post Horn, at the very least.   I wonder if they would like me to do the opening ceremonies? (No strings attached)   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   (Always use the post-code)     --- "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> wrote: > > As you may know, the RCO is planning to move again, > this time to the former > Curzon Street Station in Birmingham. This is a > beautiful classical building > that was the original passenger terminus of the > London & Birmingham Railway, > built in 1838.   __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus  
(back) Subject: Re: The Eight Little From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 21:47:42 +0800   Well, Del, I think it is taking a rather presumptuous line to say that the Eight are not up to Bach's usual standard, given that they were allegedly (by some authorities) written by Bach as exercises for his students. They are probably still the first "real" organ music given to students today.   The fact that some academics allege that Bach did not write them impresses me not at all. History is littered with the writings of academics who come up with theories which are either impossible to prove or else are discredited. They are only human after all, and some, to put it politely have strange theories!! Is there still a Flat Earth Society? If not it is not long dead. Do any academics still claim that Shakespeare did not write his plays as they did only a few years ago? Will some genius come up in 300 years' time with a theory that Beethoven did not write his sonatas?   Well, let me say that while I am playing the G major of the Little Preludes and Fugues I will still fantasise that it was indeed written by Bach. Others may disagree with me but that is their prerogative. It won't change the music will it?   ---- Original Message ---- From: dcase@puc.edu   >bobelms wrote: >> I support your remarks 100% Andres. It's a tall poppy syndrome - >cut down the biggest. Bach is the biggest! > > >Sorry, but I don't subscribe to the "tall poppy" idea. There have >been many examples of works attributed intentionally or accidentally to >composers who did not write them. To identify these is in no way cutting that person down but, rather, may in many cases be doing them a favor. > >If I were a known composer and someone attributed a work to me that I >did not compose and was not up to my usual standard (or even better than my usual work) I would consider it a favor for that erroneous attribution to become known. > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Beethoven ... ? From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 08:58:05 -0500   Dear Colin and List,   I have in my library the following:   Edited by Marcel Dupr=E9 in the series: "Anthology of Classic Masters of = the Organ." A Fugue in E Minor which would keep one's Organ Masters supple.   Edited by the ubiquitous Robert Leech Bedell: Three Trios for Organ by Beethoven. There is a notation on the bottom of page 1, "An original work for two Manuals and Pedal."   These all look interesting, whatever their provenance. I take delivery of = a small tracker practice Organ within the next couple of weeks, after which = I will delve into more of this stuff in a library of Organ music accumulated over many years. My library, by the way, incorporates much music bought = in the 60s from a lovely old man, a founder of the Canadian College of Organists, who was not able to play anymore, and wanted to be sure the = music fell into the hands of someone who would play it. His name was Frederick Tristram Egener. He knew Guilmant and also Gaston Dethier, and their music forms a fair part of the library.   Sorry for this somewhat wandering piece!   Malcolm Wechsler www.mander-organs.com   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 7:47 AM Subject: Re: Beethoven ... ?     > Hello, > > Now this IS interesting...... > > Ever since the 1960's, I have been aware of some > superb "organ music" by Beethoven. > > Now, I have to try a remember the source of this > enlightenment spanning 40 years. > > "If" I remember correctly, a certain Wilhelm Culmbach > (Kulmbach?) in Germany, re-created some very fine > student exercises of Beethoven's into playable Trio > Sonaten. They were broadcast by the BBC on Radio 3, > probably sometime between 1966 and 1968, and the music > was absolutely superb. > > It seems that Beethoven wrote these exercises whilst > making a careful study of Bach's music, and assuming > that most of the notes are actually by Beethoven, I > think it would be fair to say that he matched Bach in > quality. > > Does anyone remember this, or know of the sources? > > Actually, I MAY still have that broadcast on reel to > reel mono tape, along with some other fascinating > material from the same period. > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell UK >      
(back) Subject: Re: Carpeting etc. From: "Del Case" <dcase@puc.edu> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 08:06:09 -0700       Charlie Lester wrote: > > I could not agree more with John Foss about the curse of > carpeting. And padded pews. And window curtains. And drapes > covering the organ chambers. And acoustic tiling.     While I have no use for any carpet in a worship space, if one must have it, there is vinyl backed carpet with a very short, dense pile that can be glued down without pad that is not nearly as bad as typical carpet.   Del W. Case Pacific Union College  
(back) Subject: Re: Carpeting etc. From: "F Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:07:29 -0600   Hello, Del, et al: > While I have no use for any carpet in a worship space, if one > must have it, there is vinyl backed carpet with a very short, > dense pile that can be glued down without pad that is not > nearly as bad as typical carpet. We used that kind of carpet in our most recent re-modeling of our sanctuary, and we picked up about 1 second of reverb. We went from about 0.5-second reverb with people/1.5-seconds empty, to about 2.5 seconds empty, and the hang time for the sound has allowed our people to discover the pleasure of singing together again. We also discarded the old padded opera seats. F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..  
(back) Subject: Re: Carpeting etc. From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 08:37:41 -0800   I cannot for the LIFE of me understand why ANYONE would put carpet in a worship space TODAY, with all the other alternatives available. As many have pointed out, the FILTH they collect is a nightmare, particularly for the hyper-allergenic. Another thing: a shampooed carpet never really dries, breeding even MORE mold and mildew.   St. Matthew's chose to go with a slate tile floor in the chancel, and a polished, colored concrete floor in the nave, though I would have gone with faux parquet to give it a warmer look. But in any case we ended up with a room that seats 150 and has 3 seconds' reverb when the church is FULL. And that's WITH the upholstered pews from the old church that we couldn't afford to discard.   The only other things we did were   (1) triple drywall, overlapped so seams didn't coincide, and screwed together, rather than nailed to make it more rigid.   (2) epoxy resin paint on the ceiling and the walls ... 2 coats.   (3) a forty-foot ceiling   An aside: carpet was not common in homes OR churches (at least not in the South) until the 1960s. The house I grew up in had polished hardwood floors throughout ... so did the churches, except that First Baptist had an aisle runner. The Episcopal church had a polished hardwood floor in the nave, and Spanish tile in the chancel and sanctuary. NO church had upholstered pews, INCLUDING the ones where the preacher held forth for 45 minutes or more every Sunday.               Del Case wrote:   > > Charlie Lester wrote: > >>I could not agree more with John Foss about the curse of >>carpeting. And padded pews. And window curtains. And drapes >>covering the organ chambers. And acoustic tiling. > > > > While I have no use for any carpet in a worship space, if one > must have it, there is vinyl backed carpet with a very short, > dense pile that can be glued down without pad that is not > nearly as bad as typical carpet. > > Del W. Case > Pacific Union College > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: The RCO on line for a move From: "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:08:24 +0000 (GMT)   I followed the link given by John Speller in his post. The old railway station planned for the RCO's new home looks a fine building - though not quite on the scale of the magnificent one used in Paris by the Musee D'Orsay, which houses paintings by Van Gogh, Monet, Sisley and so on. Now, that building (Paris) is cathedral like in its proportions with magnificent acoustics. I don't think we have any list members in France, but what a superb opportunity for an organ! John Foss   John Speller writes : "...the RCO is planning to move again, this time to the former Curzon Street Station in Birmingham."   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : Opera Censorship and the right to silence   ________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html  
(back) Subject: ... the queasier they get... From: "Charlie Lester" <crlester@137.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 09:14:46 -0800   =3D-> Reverberant churches make most protestants queasy, and the more protestant they are, the queasier they get (chuckle). <-=3D   Well, that's painting with rather a broad brush stroke. While it's easy to reinforce the stereotype of Catholic and Anglican houses of worship having vaulted ceilings, resonant spaces, etc., and the Baptists, Pentecostals, etc., worshipping in gigantic living rooms upholstered from stem to stern, the reality does not necessarily bear witness to the stereotype.   I recently had occasion to visit a friend's church in "another town" (not far from L.A.). It's an Episcopal church, and is as high-church as you can get. A beautiful "smells-n-bells" liturgy with enough processionals in the service to qualify for low-impact aerobic workouts. Yet the sanctuary is as dry acoustically as any I have ever seen. The whole floor, even under the pews, is carpeted. The walls are covered with a combination of "distressed" wood paneling and flocked-cloth wallpaper, and the ceiling, while exposed-beam, is fairly low and the wooden beams were not sealed. They have an electronic organ that's been trussed up with electronic reverberation that not only makes it sound worse, it also sounds odd --- the organ has lots of reverb but nothing else in the room does. It's shockingly awful.   At the same time, there's a non-denominational church not too far from here whose sanctuary has fabulously warm and resonant acoustics. Carpeting is at a minimum and the pews are bare. A tall, concave ceiling with a dome in the center gives a glorious bell-like ring to the sound and it's really a fabulous sound. That they also have an electronic organ is moot; in this space and the way it was installed (with a huge audio system including refrigerator-sized subwoofer cabinets), it sounds incredible. This church is as "low" liturgically as the other example is "high."   And so it goes.   ~ C      
(back) Subject: RE: Beethoven ... ? From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <agun@telcel.net.ve> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 14:53:41 -0400   Andres Gunther agun@telcel.net.ve   What an irony if we consider that Beethoven started as organist in Bonn at age 13 ...   Cheers Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.   ----- Original Message ----- From: MusicMan <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 8:42 PM Subject: Beethoven ... ?     > 'Beethoven .......' Now there's a word that seldom springs to organists lips (SNIP)      
(back) Subject: RE: Choral music for K-1 From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 14:18:07 -0500       On 6 Jan 2004 at 23:21, Mark Hopper wrote:   > Shirley, > Anyone who works with children and youth choral groups of any age > should be a member of the Choristers Guild.   We are. And we're in prime Helen Kemp country too. Also, the associate = director of music is chair of the local Guild.   > > In my opinion, the best primary age material (4-5 yrs.) comes from > Michael Bedford.   Yes, I'd seen some of his stuff, and I'd forgotten about him. Thanks for = the reminder.   Thanks, Mark.   --Shirley    
(back) Subject: Re: Gregorian Chant accompaniments From: <bruce.shaw@shaw.ca> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:45:29 -0700   We do chanted unison psalms for Evensong. While not necessarily = Gregorian, they do occasionally end up in some interesting modes, = especially Mixolydian whereupon I find the only way to cobble up an = accompaniment that will fit is to use harmonies borrowed from jazz.            
(back) Subject: Re: Banjo/organ? + accordian From: <bruce.shaw@shaw.ca> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:47:39 -0700   >Kinda like Lawrence Welk/Ralston. You'll try anything once for senior citizens.   That brings back memories. I used to repair/sell organs for the Thomas = Organ company. The boss considered the Lawrence Welk Show mandatory = viewing.        
(back) Subject: Re: Gregorian Chant accompaniments From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 12:01:34 -0800   I was taught to use only root and first inversion chords built on the notes of the modal scale which DIDN'T require the introduction of accidentals, or the tritone.   Cheers,   Bud   bruce.shaw@shaw.ca wrote: > We do chanted unison psalms for Evensong. While not necessarily = Gregorian, they do occasionally end up in some interesting modes, = especially Mixolydian whereupon I find the only way to cobble up an = accompaniment that will fit is to use harmonies borrowed from jazz. > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Epiphany Service - Trinity, Wall Street From: <OrganNYC@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 15:06:57 EST   I had the pleasure of attending the Epiphany Service last night at Trinity =   Church, Wall Street. The featured eucharistic setting was the anonymous = "Mass of Tournai" ("the earliest known example in which all five movements of = the ordinary were put together under one title") as accompanied by a = Renaissance Band (shawm, sackbut, etc.). The choir also sang Handl's "Omnes de Saba = venient" at the Offertory, and Palestrina's "Videntes stellam Magi gavisi sunt" at Communion (for double choir). I especially enjoyed Owen Burdick's wild accompaniment a la Belgian Street Organ for "We Three Kings" (Sequence = Hymn at about 20 minutes into the video). Sean Jackson, Associate Organist, played an unfamiliar (to me) miscellaneous Bach piece for the postlude.   The video can be viewed at www.trinitywallstreet.org by clicking on "Feast = of the Epiphany" and then selecting Full Service.   Enjoy!   Steve Lawson - NYC    
(back) Subject: Re: 8 short etc. From: <bruce.shaw@shaw.ca> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2004 13:34:43 -0700   The 8 short never really struck me as "Bachish" if I may coin the word.   I've always judged Bach's works by how the feel under the fingers and how = they challenge the listener. I always considered them "student" works - = either written specifically for a student, or by a student.   I never really considered an Italian influence until last Sunday evening = when, having played the first four fugues from the Art of Fugue as a = prelude to Evensong, someone took my aside and asked if they were = Frescobaldi.   One work that has always upset me is the G Major Prelude and Fugue BWV = 550. It just feels so very WRONG under the fingers and the fugue seems = kind of pointless. Is there any question as to its authenticity?   J. W. Bruce Shaw Organist and Choirmaster St. Stephen the Martyr Edmonton, Alberta CANADA