PipeChat Digest #4223 - Thursday, January 15, 2004 Re: question about salvage value by "John Vanderlee" <email@example.com> NYC by "David Baker" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: hypothetical question by <email@example.com> Re: NYC by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: Preserving musical instruments by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sebastian's new commission by <email@example.com> Re: Congregational Singing at Funerals by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Re: Congregational Singing at Funerals by "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Organist/Choir Director position, Madison, WI by "Mike Franch" <email@example.com> Re: Preserving musical instruments by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Welcome aboard Maynard! by "Bob Conway" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Preserving musical instruments by <email@example.com> Re: Preserving musical instruments by <DudelK@aol.com> Re: Congregational Singing at Funerals (A bit long) by <RVScara@aol.com> RE: hypothetical question by "Glenda" <firstname.lastname@example.org> St.Paul's, DeKalb by "james nerstheimer" <email@example.com> Re: hypothetical question by "Douglas A. Campbell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: hypothetical question by "Mike Gettelman" <email@example.com> Re: "reycling" pipe organs by "Ed Steltzer" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Pipe Organs in Mansions by "Daniel Hopkins" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: question about salvage value From: "John Vanderlee" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:52:53 -0800 >Is there any salvage value in "old" magnets from organ >chests or pipe racks? My church is ready to take all >the old parts to the dump tomorrow. I just got a >look at them yesterday for the first time. The pipes >are in a crawl space under the church in dirt. They >have been there several years. I understand this was >a used theater organ at one time. Does anyone know >where I can find out about the pipes or should they >just be given away/sold as souvenirs? >Clarice Snyder > >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:email@example.com >Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:email@example.com The question is: Is it from a discernable bran d of organ? History?? John V
(back) Subject: NYC From: "David Baker" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 12:05:12 -0500 In one of Bud's posts, he listed five or six organs going begging. One of them was the "NYC Holy Name Molller". I assume he is referring to the R.C. church at 96th & Amsterdam. Has this organ been abandoned??? The last I heard the parish had spent quite a bit of money to restore it. It is indeed a splendid instrument, being of the Whitelegg era. Please update me on the status! Thanks. David Bake
(back) Subject: Re: hypothetical question From: <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:24:38 -0700 >Which organist would you be willing to drive up to 2 hrs. to hear in recital? And why? (e.g. previous experience, reputation, etc.) Jeremy Spurgeon - organist, All Saint's Cathedral, Edmonton http://www.esowinspear.com/Artists_and_Performers/Artist_Pages_A_to_Z/Spurg= eon_Jeremy.htm Marie Giesbrecht - University of Alberta = http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/MUSORG/ Jacobus Kloppers - Edmonton, Alberta = http://www.eccsociety.com/members/kloppers.htm J.W. Bruce Shaw Organist and Choirmaster St. Stephen the Martyr Anglican Church (Anglo-Catholic) Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(back) Subject: Re: NYC From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:07:56 EST It's an essentially unaltered 4-manual Whitelegg of amazing design; = 1938, loaded with mixtures (two in the pedal, three on the great, and more), = plenty of fine reeds. There was a blower fire some years ago, and they opted for an = imitation organ. Several organists have attempted to have the organ resurrected. I do not know its current status, and stopped enquiring, despite being = so close that I could tend to the instrument with no difficulty. Seb
(back) Subject: Re: Preserving musical instruments From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:17:14 -0800 (PST) Hello, Sebastian is, of course, absolutely right about the preservation of historic instruments of real musical worth. The supreme examples of organised, official restoration rest in Europe, and especially in Holland; where organs are regarded as art treasures to rival any other. Even the relatively poor countries, such as Poland and the Czech Republic seem to respect their organ past, whilst there are many restored treasures in East and West Germany. It's a strange thing, but the Dutch even seem to have more respect for the restoration of old English organs than we do here in the UK.....there are quite a few fine, restored examples. We really do not have that many restored organs, but we do have an awful lot of enlarged, butchered or otherwise modified ones. French organ building and restoration seems to be in a sorry state, and some of the things that have been done to Cavaille-Coll organs, border on criminal activity. Indeed, neglect and inactivity would seem to be a better option. Of course, in a small, intimate building such as Sebastian describes in NY, the organ project is entirely in keeping with the surroundings and the musical purpose to which the organ will be put. I'm sure that we all wish him well. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK "Small is beautiful" --- TubaMagna@aol.com wrote: > Now that we've gotten the humor out of our > systems, we really MUST be > more serious and careful about how we refer to > historic material that is > incorporated into new organs __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
(back) Subject: Sebastian's new commission From: <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:54:52 -0800 Congratulations! It will be perfectly LOVELY, I'm SURE! Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Re: Congregational Singing at Funerals From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:56:09 EST R, Very sensible policies! Bill H.
(back) Subject: Re: Congregational Singing at Funerals From: "Alan Freed" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:16:06 -0500 On 1/15/04 1:26 AM, "RVScara@aol.com" <RVScara@aol.com> wrote: > as a recessional, technically "outside" the service, to keep things > Liturgical. I=B9ve heard that reasoning for a Sunday mass. But for a funeral, which (it seems to me) has an hour to go, as the procession moves to the place of interment, and continues even there? Alan
(back) Subject: Organist/Choir Director position, Madison, WI From: "Mike Franch" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:25:31 -0600 If anyone is looking to move to Madison, WI, here's an opening in our = area. Please pass on to any of your colleagues that might be interested. Organist/Choir Director position. Dale Heights Presbyterian Church is seeking a 1/4 time organist/choir director. Responsibilities include providing organ and piano music for = one Sunday service year round as well as leading the choir from September through May. (Thursday night rehearsal.) Salary $10,000. If interested please contact Dale Heights at 608-233-0134. Mike Franch Madison, WI _________________________________________________________________ Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software =97 optimizes dial-up to the = max! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=3Den-us&page=3Dbyoa/plus&ST=3D1
(back) Subject: Re: Preserving musical instruments From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 15:38:43 EST Sebastian is very right to get serious about this issue. I play an = instrument which has been moved at least once, thrice modified tonally with pipework from several different sources, and electrified then re-trackerized. Some = people might think this instrument is junk--indeed a very highly esteemed = predecessor of mine thought just that. I am thankful to have it, and while it indeed = has its quirks (what instrument doesnt), I think it's lovely as does the = majority of the congregation. The question I would like to throw out is an ethical one. This particular instrument was saved from an almost successful campaign to replace it with = an instrument more in line with the personal taste of the organist at the = time. "Independent" reports from organ builders were procured to magnify flaws. = One referred to the large amount of "junk" pipework used in a rebuilding--much = of which is actually very lovely H&H and Roosevelt pipework. The organ was = purposely used in such a way as to suggest that it was insufficient to accompany a = large congregation (I cannot prove this, but "old timers" say that it became "insufficient" just about the time a new organ was contemplated). = Fortunately, this effort was unsuccessful and an interesting old instrument was saved. So, my ethical questions are these: when, if ever, is it OK to push for a = new instrument PURELY because the old one does not indulge your personal taste = or "purist" sensibilities,not because it is no longer practical to repair or = the congregation has literally outgrown it? I have heard of organists = purposely sabotaging an instrument (either mechanically or by deliberately showing = off its flaws), though I don't know anyone personally who has done this. Would = most of my colleagues agree that doing something like this is unethical? = Further, would it actually be considered unethical to mislead a congregation about renovations which use "recycled" pipework by referring to this as "junk" = when it is in fact not junk? Just some thoughts for discussion. Bill H.
(back) Subject: Welcome aboard Maynard! From: "Bob Conway" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 16:12:21 -0500 Hi Maynard, Welcome aboard! For those who do not know Maynard Schutt, he has a selection of organs in his front room, - from Allens to Hammonds, I have even sat at the console = of the biggest Allen and did my thing! Maynard offers concerts from time to time for his friends, - it is a pity that I live too far away from him to hear them! They are well appreciated = by all those who get to them. Glad to see you on the list, Maynard. Bob Conway At 10:06 AM 1/15/2004, Maynard Schutt wrote: >Hi Keith...this is my first time in pipechat...I too am an amateur >organist, who has played the worlds largest pipe organ in Atlantic City, >and 125 others; > >We have a long- play recording of E. Power Biggs playing the oldest >playable organ in the world, built in 1390, in Sion, Switzerland > >Just thought I would toss this in as food for thought; > >I am just new to the list, and enjoy it very much; > >Cheerio, Maynard. > > >At 10:19 PM 1/14/04 -0500, you wrote: >>As everyone can tell, I'm an amateur self-taught organist. Anyway, I = like >>the stoplist. From what I've gathered from this list in the past, this = is >>an organ designed around a particular purpose. >> >>Seb, I would love to get a recording of this or any other organ of its = size. >>So many organ recordings are of the very large organs. For me, these >>recordings are a tease, since I will most likely never be in a situation = in >>which I have easy or ready access to such an organ. These smaller = organs >>are more like what I would have. In fact, the one I'm fixing up - with >>professional help, of course - is about 11 ranks. Hearing music played = on >>smaller organs by accomplished organists gives me a better idea of what = kind >>of sound I can have in my own organ. >> >>If anyone has suggestions for recordings by fine organists on small = organs, >>please post them. If no one else is interested, please respond = privately. >> >>Thanks, >>Keith >> >> >>"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >>PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >>HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >>List: mailto:email@example.com >>Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org >>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:email@example.com
(back) Subject: Re: Preserving musical instruments From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 14:03:47 -0800 Whew! Where to start with all THIS??!! It is NEVER ethical to push an organization to replace an organ because it doesn't suit one's personal taste AS LONG AS the organ is doing an adequate job of its INTENDED purpose. Now ... having said that, there ARE instances where a perfectly good organ SHOULD be replaced. Before Vatican II, Roman Catholic organs seldom had to lead congregational singing; they had to accompany choirs and soloists. Some churches in large cities had large organs, particularly across the German Midwest, but as a rule in the hinterlands one would find small two-manual organs of a dozen stops or less in churches seating as many as 1000. In a FEW instances, those tiny organs DO fill those huge rooms (the old downtown RC church in Elyria, OH ... a small 2m Johnson), and should be LEFT ALONE. But in a lot of cases, particularly where the acoustics were never good, or have been tampered with ... I remember a fine small 2m Holtkamp that went into Holy Name RC church on the South Side of Cleveland in the 1960s ... it was the pride and joy of organist, choir, and congregation. An (Irish, of course) pastor came along and laid cheap wall-to-wall indoor-outdoor carpet over the marble floors of the nave and the chancel. The organ couldn't be heard beyond the gallery rail. NOBODY blamed the altered acoustics; EVERYONE (but the organist) blamed the organ, the organ-builder, and the organist. I don't know if the organ is still there or not. A lot of younger organists don't really UNDERSTAND how to register on an old romantic organ ... for instance, those pencil-scaled strings ARE there to provide brightness and harmonic development; old Austins had 73-note chests for a REASON ... if you wanted brightness, you played UP an octave WITH the super-couplers drawn (IF there weren't any mixtures). Conventional wisdom in the 1960s said that congregations followed the upperwork, not a mass of 8' tone. Well, go play a good Hook or Johnson or Hinners or Whitlegg Moller or Michell Austin or Willis Wicks or an original E.M. Skinner, etc. in a BAD room, and see how THEY dealt with it. Jack Bethards' remarks about building in that HUGE dead room for the Mormons were VERY illuminating ... he apparently did EXACTLY what those earlier builders did: strengthened the bass and the 8' tone, and reined in the trebles and the mixtures, and provided abundant REED tone for brightness, rather than high-pitched mixtures . Point: MOST small to medium size churches DO NOT need recital instruments. They need work-horses with pleasing tone that will play the service and accompany the choir, chanters, soloists, and congregation Sunday by Sunday. MOST organs offered for transplant will do THAT, and do it WELL. Flame away, but ORGANISTS are essentially driving the market for huge digital and combo instruments. There's nothing in the literature that can't be played on a three manual organ of 30-40 stops, and some would say even smaller would work as well. And I mean ANYTHING that could reasonably be played in service OR recital in CHURCH. Organs in secular recital halls, colleges, etc. have a different function, though I wouldn't mind playing Oberlin's new Fisk for Solemn Latin Mass in the late 19th century French manner at ALL (grin). Discarding an organ in toto should be an absolute LAST RESORT ... as someone else pointed out, the rest of the organ world is PROUD to include old pipes in their organs. Just READ the pedigree of some of those English cathedral organs ... some of them have pipes dating back to before the Interregnum (!) ... many of C-C's instruments retain their Cliquot cornets and flues. A MASTER voicer CAN make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ... go listen to Bob Sipe's little organ in St. Stephen's UMC in Mesquite TX ... Felgemaker tracker chassis, pipes from all over ... the Holtzquintadena is especially lovely ... it was (I believe) a Felgemaker MELODIA in its original incarnation. Of course, that organ is blessed (or was, anyway) with some of the best acoustics of any church in the US, and the church isn't large. Singing CHANT in that room sounded like Santo Domingo de Silos (!). But you gotta WANT to do it, folks ... we passed the hat in BARS in Mt. Adams every Saturday night to raise money to move and restore the Koehnken & Grimm from Holy Cross Monastery to Immaculata Church in Cincinnati. But we DID it ... kids from the organ dept. at the Conservatory learned how to do everything we could reasonably do under Tom Cunningham's supervision ... winding trackers, replacing leather nuts, washing and straightening pipes, refinishing the case; he and his crew did the rest ... re-erecting the chassis, releathering the huge reservoir and feeders. And the whole thing was done for less than $5K in the 1970s. So I say "piffle" to just about ANYBODY who says they can't "afford" a pipe organ. IT CAN BE DONE (grin). If I'd have been able, I'd have been on a plane to NYC in a HEARTBEAT to help save that 3m Roosevelt. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Re: Preserving musical instruments From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:22:58 -0500 In a message dated 1/15/2004 3:38:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, DERREINETOR = writes: > So, my ethical questions are these: when, if ever, is it OK to push for = a new instrument PURELY because the old one does not indulge your personal = taste or "purist" sensibilities,not because it is no longer practical to = repair or the > congregation has literally outgrown it? I think that happens most often when the organist has access to a wealthy = dowager in the congregation with a hefty checkbook to fund such = endeavours. I've seen that happen more than a few times . . . and not = always with such fine results.
(back) Subject: Re: Congregational Singing at Funerals (A bit long) From: <RVScara@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:02:01 EST Alan, you are a stickler, albeit correct: TECHNICALLY OUTSIDE THE = SERVICE. You know we in the RC church are expert in divining exceptions to the situation, knowing that Our Lord Himself/Herself would consider the = circumstances of that situation and make the same considerate and loving decision. Yes, the = Mass is technically over at the Ite Missa Est ( The Mass is ended, go in = peace.) In some parishes short departure prayers are said just before the coffin = is taken out of the church; it varies from parish to parish. The deceased is = then intransit to the cemetery for the final prayers of interment. The overall RC Church policy on music is that it must be liturgically correct, of a sacred nature, and appropriate. No popular music! To keep = peace with those who challenge this and make it an issue at such a difficult time for = the family, we have let some song we can rationalize as relatively = inoffensive, or culturally traditional, or whatever, be done at a time when other = things, maybe even distractions, are going on, and hope it sails through without causing someone consternation and a complaint to the Bishop. (Of course, = the Bishop presided at one funeral at which he agreed to Danny Boy being done just before coming out onto the altar to process down the aisle and meet the = coffin. So, there you have a compromising situation for the future.) After an exeption, the problem will always be where do you draw the line = and with whom. In being kind to one, another pushes to take advantage of you. To keep this on topic: a respected and influential family scheduled a wedding and told the Pastor an Aunt was organist in some distant church = and had offered her services as her gift to the couple. They don't want to offend = the Aunt and the Pastor does not want to refuse this "special" family. We = have no Bench Fee policy; the proposal was considered too mercenary, but as a rule = we do not allow outside organists unless I might ask one to sub for me. The Pastor makes this exception and then tells me he approved it, "knowing I = will understand." Word gets out and down the line another family has requested = the same thing, citing the aforementioned wedding. Now what.
(back) Subject: RE: hypothetical question From: "Glenda" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:09:35 -0600 Nowadays I have to drive at least an hour and a half to hear any organist. Next question? Seriously, that list keeps changing with every trip. I keep shifting around favorites. Let me sleep on that one until after Sunday's trip. Glenda Sutton firstname.lastname@example.org -----Original Message----- >Which organist would you be willing to drive up to 2 hrs. to hear in recital? And why? (e.g. previous experience, reputation, etc.)
(back) Subject: St.Paul's, DeKalb From: "james nerstheimer" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:27:46 -0600 Happy to report rebuild project underway. Already found some interesting things that were going on. Paul and I checked windpressure on the Great = and now I know why our Principal chorus was so flooty--only 2.6" pressure = under them. The Great Mixture is out being revoiced in the shop and to hear it, = things are going well. We're gonna see what a real 3" will do. Should improve things immensely. I think we have some very robust 8-4's that = wish to prove themselves. I hope we can get the Quint and 2' to be more Principally! I think the effect will be quite nice with the "new" mixture = blended in. We are gaining a new 2' and 1 1/3' for the Swell. 8-4-Mixture V is what = we had before. I've seen this sort of thing elsewhere. Why not just make = the 2' rank of a mixture available as a seperate stop to begin with? I had = that situation on the Great back in Sterling many years ago. Stay tuned. Jim . . . who believes seamless crescendos to be as much an indication of virtue as much as skill O):^) _________________________________________________________________ There are now three new levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Learn more. http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=3Den-us&page=3Dhotmail/es2&ST=3D1
(back) Subject: Re: hypothetical question From: "Douglas A. Campbell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:44:34 -0500 Without a doubt.....FELIX HELL. my record ( so far) is 6-1/2 hours each way ! Douglas A. Campbell Skaneateles, NY On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 10:23:31 -0500 "atal" <email@example.com> writes: > Here's a hypothetical question addressed primarily to my fellow > Canadians, > but certainly open to all others: > > Which organist would you be willing to drive up to 2 hrs. to hear > in > recital? And why? (e.g. previous experience, reputation, etc.) > > Thanks in advance for your passionate replies. > > Andreas Thiel > Director of Music > St. Marys United Church > St. Marys, Ontario Canada > firstname.lastname@example.org > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:email@example.com > Administration: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:email@example.com > > > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
(back) Subject: Re: hypothetical question From: "Mike Gettelman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:58:19 -0500 Hello Andreas, My first opportunity to hear Felix Hell was on the occasion of his = first Canadian performances in Hamilton Ontario, about 6 hours from Cleveland. = Last year I drove to Buffalo (about 4 hours) to hear him on a long weekend that = saw me continue on to Newark New Jersey (another 6 hours) to hear him there = also. I have done several 4 hour trips to hear him in Michigan and Indiana, and = a rather shorter 2 hour journey when he played in Columbus Ohio. But the = grand daddy journey to hear Felix happened last month during Christmas week that took me on a 12 hour trip to Atlanta Georgia to hear him play Spivey Hall. When you consider that all the other organ concerts I have heard in my = life have been within a 25 mile radius of my home, I guess you might say I'm a dedicated Felix Hell Fan. Cheers Mike Gettelman atal wrote: > Here's a hypothetical question addressed primarily to my fellow = Canadians, > but certainly open to all others: > > Which organist would you be willing to drive up to 2 hrs. to hear in > recital? And why? (e.g. previous experience, reputation, etc.) > > Thanks in advance for your passionate replies. > > Andreas Thiel > Director of Music > St. Marys United Church > St. Marys, Ontario Canada > email@example.com >
(back) Subject: Re: "reycling" pipe organs From: "Ed Steltzer" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:02:02 -0500 As a (pipe) organist and hobbyist who retired to the beautiful lower Maine coast, I would appreciate making contact with another person (or two!) north of Boston who might just have a "barn filled to the rafters with = organ stuff and pipes", or maybe just a few ranks .... goal: mutually beneficial buys and swaps. email@example.com Ed, in Maine ----- Original Message ----- From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> To: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 11:08 PM Subject: Re: "reycling" pipe organs > > > (Who owns more "experienced" organ parts than ANYBODY ELSE in the = entire > > Universe!) > > I'm not sure about that. One of my choir members has a humongous barn filled > to the rafters with organ stuff and pipes. AND, he has 2 french horns (one a > Skinner, the other a Moeller). >
(back) Subject: Pipe Organs in Mansions From: "Daniel Hopkins" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:18:32 -0400 While reading"Stop Open and Reed" a collection of periodicals put = together in a book . I was wondering of how many Mansions and residences of the elite back in the early 20th century still survive. and if so , how many still contain there Pipe Organs. It seems that there were alot of residences mentioned = in this book . Danielwh