PipeChat Digest #4224 - Thursday, January 15, 2004
 
Perhaps the Biggest? SanFillippo
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: Pipe Organs in Mansions
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Funeral music (regrettably lengthy)
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: re small organ recording;
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
bench fees
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Resultant 16'
  by "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Thanks Bob;;
  by "Maynard Schutt" <hms@hamtech.org>
Re: Pipe Organs in Mansions
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Re: Resultant 16'
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Pipe Organs in Mansions
  by "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org>
Re: Apologies
  by "Cole" <rcolev@woh.rr.com>
 

(back) Subject: Perhaps the Biggest? SanFillippo From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:15:47 -0800   I wrote the following in response to comments on Theatreorgan _L on the "biggest...."   Thought this list might enjoy it too:   Unless I am wrong.. Jasper SanFillippo now has that distinction of owning it? The biggest working Theatre Organ that is...   A brief review:   On sunday 12/29 at 7:30 AM I headed out for Barrington, illinois in a van with 6 High School Students from Hyde Park NY.   All had done yeomen's work getting our shop/warehouse contents moved twice ( actually thrice in the past year) and were deserving of a treat. They are also part of my crew working on a Wurlitzer to be in stalled in our high School. Anyhow, all are musicians as well: brass, keyboard, strings - so they were eager for this road trip.   After 1 1/2 day of travel we arrived at the San Fillippo Estate and were already impressed by the exterior grandeur. Robert Ridgeway the curator met us in the restoration shop - a tour in itself - and then escorted us to the "barn" which is in reality a climate controlled modern steel building.   Suffice it to say that our jaws dropped from the moment we entered that "barn" until we went back to our motel in the evening.   The barn contains as its center piece a HUGE Carousel , but it - in all its meticulusly restored grandeur - was almost eclipsed by the treasures surrounding it. The place was like a paved plaza complete with artificial trees displaying a multitude of the grandest barrel, circus, calliope, and dance organs one could ever imagine. I will not mention it any more, but EVERY item on display at San Fillippo is a total restoration to the 'nth degree. The Barn also includes a steam train engine, an almost completed Victorian passenger car that has to be see to be believed in its opulence, a replica Caboose under construction, many tower clockworks, street clocks, other steam engines, steam driven apparatus, etc.   All the magnificent organs were demonstrated and we were thrilled beyond belief. Then Robert mentioned that this was considered the "attic" . The good stuff was in the house, he said. OH ..??   We entered the grand foyer to the strains of an automated Violin player ( sorry ,I cant recall all the proper technical names) which actually played a trio of 3 violins. As it was - again - this was part of a multitude of automated players that graced the foyer, worthy of a magnificent theatre complete with grand staircase. That tour completed and finding it hard to imagine more, Robert took us into the "salon" - the 100 ft deep 64 ft wide and 40 ft high music room. It was hard to decide which to take in first , the opulent theatrical design, the instruments displayed there, or the grandeur of the space itself. We took the open cage elevator up to the "balcony" where we instructed to sit in the central theater seats. Robert then went down and turned on the "player" mechanism and we were suddenly engulfed in the most thrilling theatre organ sound. The console rose and rotated majestically as the "player" recreated performances by the likes of Carlo Curley, Tom Hazleton, Lyn Larsen, John Giacchi, Simon Gledhill, etc.   What a totally magnificent instrument!! From the Fiery Trumpet Battaglia in the rear to the gentlest Flutes, this baby has it all. We shook with the multiple 32 ft stops, swam in the masses of strings, were in awe at the exposed tower chimes , and were generally glad that this building had been designed for this delicious musical onslaught. This is truly an organ that has no limits on the emotion that can be wrested from its pipes. Not money , nor time, nor talent was spared on its design and it is a living and breathing testimony to the brilliance of the late David Junchen's dream design. Somewhere he must be smiling every time it is played; it can whisper but also cause an earth quake, it can call to the Gods and probably bring them down. You might get the feeling I was impressed..... and the kids were = speechless. The San Fillippo Wurlitzer is a Mecca, We have seen XANADU, and it is in Barrington , Ill.   Finally, to the strains of the organ we toured the salon, admired its multiple treasures, and had a chamber "crawl" . Every where was evidence of the finest workmanship in this organ. Tricks and techniques to make it it quiet ( the non musical sounds) and make it maintainable. Oohs and aahs were non stop.   We made our way to the "basement" ...haha... a lower level space of understated elegance - with another staircase deserving of the finest mansion - and toured more and more of Jasper's restored "toys" : Edison phonographs by the dozens, nickelodeons, one arm bandits. Phonographs, a steam belt driven work shop, etc. etc. literally hundreds of restored items - mechanical and/or musical. We then arrived in the glass enclosed blower room where a 50 HP 10 ft long blower powers the organ at 36" and 24?" inches. Rivaling that is the beautifully restored Lift and turntable combination now visible from the bottom in this room.   Upon returning to the salon we had the opportunity to try the organ ( I dont play) but the ear-to-ear grins on the kid's faces were unmistakable evidence of their enjoyment, as those with keyboard skills played music from Billy Joel on that stupendous Kenny Chrome-built 5 M console.   Believing we had seen Paradise, we returned to the foyer for the obligatory group pictures, and took our most graceful and time-generous host Robert Ridgeway out for dinner.   The following morning we were heartily received by Paul van der Molen at his "Wheaton Fox" residence where we enjoyed a more "human size" installation as Robert Ridgeway had coined it. I was most interested in the Wonder Morton console that I had trucked up to Illinois about 6 years ago. It was a real derelict then, but the version witnessed there now is testament to Dave Krall's skills.   Besides enjoying the sounds of this wonderful organ through digital replay magic, and a chamber tour to follow, the kids enjoyed them selves trying both pianos out as well as the organ console. By noon we said good bye to our host, and headed back to NY State. We arrived the next day ( new years eve) at 2 PM, and all went their own way - hopefully richer in their experience, and a bit more understanding of what drives us TO "Nuts".   Considering today's weather - as I write this - Someone up there liked us, as we enjoyed 4 days of glorious weather for this trip. Some had even declared me "certifiable.." ( LOL) for even planning this trip at this time. I guess I had the last laugh.   John V  
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organs in Mansions From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 17:58:06 -0800   The two Ringling mansions in Sarasota FL still have their Aeolians, though one isn't playable.   The Aeolian from the Bok mansion in Lake Wales FL went to 1st UMC Bartow, FL, where it was ruined by a hurricane that took the roof off the north transept where the main organ chamber was located; a hobbyist bought it and stored it; he died; it had been left in a barn for 20+ years; another hobbyist bought it; he contacted me about it, since evidently I'm the last person living who played it (chuckle); he was trying to get Bok Tower Gardens to put it into the Visitors' Center, but I never heard any more.   The Welte from a mansion in Palm Beach was on the market recently.   Biltmore House in North Carolina finally RECEIVED its organ, only about a hundred years late (grin). OHS visited several other estate organs in North Carolina, but the who and where escape me right now.   Longwood Gardens is still there, of course ... is the restoration = completed?   Hammond Castle is virtually unplayable ... but from the looks of it, it was a mongrel to start with (grin).   The Playboy Mansion in LA still has its organ, AFAIK.   One of the auto magnates' estate organs in the Detroit area was on the market recently, but it had already gone to a church, and the church was disposing of it. But I think a couple of others are still in their original locations/condition.   There's at least one in Cincinnati ... symphony board member ... but I can't remember the name.   There IS a big Wurlitzer in the Strader mansion in Cinti, but it isn't original.   I think either Sand or David Scribner has the Aeolian list; that wouldn't be ALL of them, but it would be a LOT of them ... most of the others would have been Welte and E.M. Skinner. I think most were player organs.   A lot of mansions up and down the Hudson were turned into convents and exclusive private schools. I suppose some might have retained their organs for chapel services.   Discover Channel or one of the ed channels ran a thing on "America's Castles" ... I do remember seeing some organs in that ... perhaps you can order a video?   Cheers,   Bud               Daniel Hopkins wrote:   > While reading"Stop Open and Reed" a collection of periodicals put = together > in a book . > I was wondering of how many Mansions and residences of the elite back = in > the early 20th century still survive. and if so , how many still contain > there Pipe Organs. It seems that there were alot of residences mentioned = in > this book . > > Danielwh > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Funeral music (regrettably lengthy) From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:04:33 -0500   On 1/15/04 6:02 PM, "RVScara@aol.com" <RVScara@aol.com> wrote:   > Alan, you are a stickler, albeit correct: TECHNICALLY OUTSIDE THE SERVIC= E. >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 I take that as a compliment. But I thought I was contending that the= exit > procession to the gravesite (and the ritual in that place) was INSIDE the > liturgy. =B3Stickler=B2 I can live with; but =B3right=B2 or =B3wrong=B2 I=B9m mildly > curious about. (Only =B3mildly=B2 because we Lutherans can come up with > =B3exceptions,=B2 TOO!) > =20 > You know we in the RC church are expert in divining exceptions to the > situation, knowing that Our Lord Himself/Herself would consider the > circumstances of that situation and make the same considerate and loving > decision.=20 >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 Yes. And that=B9s OK. >=20 > Yes, the Mass is technically over at the Ite Missa Est (The Mass is ended= , go > in peace.) In some parishes short departure prayers are said just before= the > coffin is taken out of the church; it varies from parish to parish. The > deceased is then in transit to the cemetery for the final prayers of > interment. =20 >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 But is there an =B3ite=B2 in the Roman rite for a funeral mass at this po= int? > (I=B9d be a bit surprised.) >=20 > The overall RC Church policy on music is that it must be liturgically cor= rect, > of a sacred nature, and appropriate. No popular music! >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 I certainly agree with that policy. (With us, the subject doesn=B9t ev= en > come up. THEY know that WE know what we=B9re DOING, and leave it at that; = we=B9re > like RCs of 1910.) >=20 > To keep peace with those who challenge this and make it an issue at such = a > difficult time for the family, we have let some song we can rationalize a= s > relatively inoffensive, or culturally traditional, or whatever, be done a= t a > time when other things, maybe even distractions, are going on, and hope i= t > sails through without causing someone consternation and a complaint to th= e > Bishop. (Of course, the Bishop presided at one funeral at which he agree= d to > Danny Boy being done just before coming out onto the altar >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 That=B9s another funny one that bugs me. In the NYC newspapers they=B9re > always talking about a group of politicians gathered =B3on the altar=B2 for t= his > or that event. I thought it was stupid journalese=8Bbut now you=B9ve said =B3o= nto > the altar=B2 too! Do they have a little stepladder or something to get up > there? Do they take their shoes off? Or put a rug on it or something, s= o as > not to soil the fair linen? Where do such funny expressions come from=8Bin > ROME, of all places?! >=20 > to process down the aisle and meet the coffin. So, there you have a > compromising situation for the future.) >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 You BET you do! >=20 > After an exeption, the problem will always be where do you draw the line = and > with whom. In being kind to one, another pushes to take advantage of you. >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 Exactly. Being Fr. Niceguy really just makes for trouble, doesn=B9t it= ? >=20 > To keep this on topic: a respected and influential family scheduled a we= dding > and told the Pastor an Aunt was organist in some distant church and had > offered her services as her gift to the couple. They don't want to offen= d the > Aunt and the Pastor does not want to refuse this "special" family. We ha= ve no > Bench Fee policy; the proposal was considered too mercenary, but as a rul= e we > do not allow outside organists unless I might ask one to sub for me. The > Pastor makes this exception and then tells me he approved it, "knowing I = will > understand." =20 >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 Fine, and you assured him that you knew that HE=B9d understand that you > still get paid for the job you were hired for, and were there, ready to D= O, > even if he didn=B9t want you to do it that time! (=B3Install Bench Fee!=B2) >=20 > Word gets out and down the line another family has requested the same thi= ng, > citing the aforementioned wedding. Now what. >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 You betcha! Be a nice guy once, and get trampled on four or five tim= es or > more. =20 >=20 > Sharing your frustration, >=20 > Alan >=20 >=20      
(back) Subject: Re: re small organ recording; From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 20:18:52 -0600     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maynard Schutt" <hms@hamtech.org> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 9:42 AM Subject: re small organ recording;     > We have a long-play recording of E. Power Biggs playing a very small, > world's oldest playable pipe organ, in Sion, Switzerlanad.   That takes me back. When my wife and I married 27 years ago we pooled our collections of long playing gramophone records. The Biggs recording of "Historic Organs of Switzerland" was one of about 6 records we both had copies of!   John Speller    
(back) Subject: bench fees From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 18:34:22 -0800   There's nothing "mercenary" about wanting to eat and live indoors. Church music is how I make (or made) my LIVING. If the clergy permit a visiting organist, that's money out of MY pocket and food off MY table. And when the base salary isn't enough to support three cats to BEGIN with, weddings and funerals make a BIG difference.   I've had Roman churches where the wedding and funeral fees amounted to MORE than my SALARY.   And before anyone starts, don't lecture me about "doing it for God." I've heard it all. God gave me the talent to do music; I don't think he intended me to STARVE in the process.   And, no, I'm NOT going to work 40 hours a week at a widget factory so I can SUBSIDIZE my participation in church music.   Those of you who are wealthy enough to give it away, be my guest; just remember you are driving down the salaries for the rest of us who CAN'T afford to give it away.   Bud Clark (retired, thank God! albeit on virtually NOTHING) San Diego, CA USA      
(back) Subject: Re: Resultant 16' From: "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:38:51 -0500   > There are old organs in the Tri-State area where the bottom octave of > the 16' Pedal Principal or Great 8' Principal is so treated, on account > of lack of height in the facade, and the break from the single pipe to > the resultant is virtually indistinguishable.   Forgive my ignorance: what does "Tri-State area" mean? Can you = specify the locations of these organs? > I'm a great advocate of doing that with Pedal 32's, rather than spending > money on digitals. Build note 1-12 as a resultant, but with properly > scaled INDEPENDENT quint pipes; then have notes 13-32 play the 16' > Bourdon an octave lower. The cost is competitive with digital 32' stops.   Perhaps I need better experience. (My close friends would tell you = that THAT's not a difficult concept!!) :-) But I have very limited = experience with resultants that really succeeded. Watching the installation and "voicing" of Walker digital 32' and 16' Bourdon stops in Lancaster several years ago in a VERY difficult acoustic, I'm likely more ready to go the digital 32' route, tracker-backer that I am. I suspect a resultant would not have worked in that space.   Cordially,   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA    
(back) Subject: Thanks Bob;; From: "Maynard Schutt" <hms@hamtech.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:48:31 -0500   Hi Bob:   Many thanks for your 4:12 PM message and comments today, that was my first =   from the Pipechat List and I appreciated it very much.   We (not Reg) attended Oct. & Nov. concerts at Kingston, but hope to see = you for spring concert.   Thanks to my daughter, I am getting hooked on the computer too.   Cheerio; Maynard   At 04:12 PM 1/15/04 -0500, you wrote: >Hi Maynard, > >Welcome aboard! > >For those who do not know Maynard Schutt, he has a selection of organs in =   >his front room, - from Allens to Hammonds, I have even sat at the = console >of the biggest Allen and did my thing! > >Maynard offers concerts from time to time for his friends, - it is a pity =   >that I live too far away from him to hear them! They are well = appreciated >by all those who get to them. > >Glad to see you on the list, Maynard. > >Bob Conway > > > >At 10:06 AM 1/15/2004, Maynard Schutt wrote: >>Hi Keith...this is my first time in pipechat...I too am an amateur >>organist, who has played the worlds largest pipe organ in Atlantic City, =   >>and 125 others; >> >>We have a long- play recording of E. Power Biggs playing the oldest >>playable organ in the world, built in 1390, in Sion, Switzerland >> >>Just thought I would toss this in as food for thought; >> >>I am just new to the list, and enjoy it very much; >> >>Cheerio, Maynard. >> >> >>At 10:19 PM 1/14/04 -0500, you wrote: >>>As everyone can tell, I'm an amateur self-taught organist. Anyway, I = like >>>the stoplist. From what I've gathered from this list in the past, this = is >>>an organ designed around a particular purpose. >>> >>>Seb, I would love to get a recording of this or any other organ of its = size. >>>So many organ recordings are of the very large organs. For me, these >>>recordings are a tease, since I will most likely never be in a = situation in >>>which I have easy or ready access to such an organ. These smaller = organs >>>are more like what I would have. In fact, the one I'm fixing up - with >>>professional help, of course - is about 11 ranks. Hearing music played = on >>>smaller organs by accomplished organists gives me a better idea of what = kind >>>of sound I can have in my own organ. >>> >>>If anyone has suggestions for recordings by fine organists on small = organs, >>>please post them. If no one else is interested, please respond = privately. >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Keith >>> >>> >>>"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >>>PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >>>HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >>>List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >>>Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organs in Mansions From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 21:56:39 EST   During the OHS in NC a few years ago the venues included Chinqua Penn, Reynolda House, and Biltmore House. I don't have my handbook handy, but if = I recall, Chinqua Penn had a Skinner, Reynolda House a very interesting Aeolian, and =   Biltmore House a gorgeous Skinner that had been relocated from New York = State. I think all of them have been featured on the wonderful America's Castles series on A&E. Last time I checked there was a Christmas CD of the = Biltmore organ.   There's also the (I think) large Aeolian in the Frick mansion, now the = Frick Collection, in New York -- just up the block from St. Thomas and Emanu-El. = I believe there is also an organ still in the Eastman residence in Rochester =   (also on A's-C).   There are some in current and former residences here in Washington. One = was up at Chevy Chase Circle, whose details I forget. Another is in a former mansion just up the block from my place, which now houses some kind of = Korean govt. mission. And there's one I think in the Mexican embassy up on 16th St. = There was also one in the residence of the minister of a church for which I was formerly the organist. After hearing about it for a long time, I finally = got up there and discovered it was basically a case of ka-ka on a stick. Another = local organist has a Wurlitzer and one or more others at his place up near Camp = David in Maryland, but I've not been there. It was featured on a local TV = program some years ago.   An acquaintance had a very large 3m custom Rodgers in his contemporary mansion between Embassy Row and Washington Cathedral, but I believe that = went to one of the colleges at Catholic University when he sold the house. There = is/was one in the current residence of the Italian Ambassador facing Rock Creek = Park, but I believe I was told it was no longer playable when I was there some = years ago.   And then there's the lovely little 2m Rodgers in my place just off Dupont Circle. It's hardly a mansion, but the organ comes in quite handy for = practicing when you have a Sunday job and it's cold and you don't feel like going to = the church. It came from a residence in Montgomery County a few years ago. And =   after the time it's been here, I have never tired of the sound, although = I'm sure many others would have. Of course I'd rather have a substantial Aeolian-Skinner, but in its own way this was a dream come true after many = years of looking and hoping.   Would that all our mansions large and small had an organ that was just = right for the owner/occupant!    
(back) Subject: Re: Resultant 16' From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 19:15:09 -0800   Tri-State: where Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky come together ... Kentucky is right across the river from Cincinnati.   Karl Moyer wrote:   >>There are old organs in the Tri-State area where the bottom octave of >>the 16' Pedal Principal or Great 8' Principal is so treated, on account >>of lack of height in the facade, and the break from the single pipe to >>the resultant is virtually indistinguishable. > > > Forgive my ignorance: what does "Tri-State area" mean? Can you = specify > the locations of these organs? > > >>I'm a great advocate of doing that with Pedal 32's, rather than spending >>money on digitals. Build note 1-12 as a resultant, but with properly >>scaled INDEPENDENT quint pipes; then have notes 13-32 play the 16' >>Bourdon an octave lower. The cost is competitive with digital 32' stops. > > > Perhaps I need better experience. (My close friends would tell you = that > THAT's not a difficult concept!!) :-) But I have very limited = experience > with resultants that really succeeded.   That's because so few are built with INDEPENDENT quint pipes that can be tuned true, rather than (typically) borrowing the quint off the Swell 16' Gedeckt to "result" with the Pedal Bourdon.   Placement and scaling is of paramount importance. If you've followed the parallel discussion on piporg-1, there are many examples of 19th century American organs where the bottom octave of 16' and even 8' stops were made as resultants on account of space or height problems, and a lot of them are indistinguishable from downstairs.   I suspect the money quints are the most successful of the lot because the y-shaped windway allows the sympathetic vibrations to develop more fully, but I don't know the physics of why that is so, other than the general fact that pipes on a common windway in a slider chest interact better with one another.   Watching the installation and > "voicing" of Walker digital 32' and 16' Bourdon stops in Lancaster = several > years ago in a VERY difficult acoustic, I'm likely more ready to go the > digital 32' route, tracker-backer that I am. I suspect a resultant = would > not have worked in that space. > > Cordially, > > Karl E. Moyer > Lancaster PA >   I have been told that the initial outlay for the digital equipment would more than pay for 12 independent quint pipes for a resultant; granted, that would only give you a 32' Bourdon or a 32' Violone (both are possible, depending on the scale and voicing of the pipes), and not two speeds of Bourdon and two speeds of Bombarde (or whatever) (grin), but in the last analysis it will last as long as the rest of the organ.   Out here on the west coast, salt air is deadly to electronics of ALL kinds, including speaker cones. I even hesitate to specify solid-state stop controls in a tracker pipe organ. Straight trackers with NOTHING electric but the blower are definitely a safer bet in coastal areas.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organs in Mansions From: "TommyLee Whitlock" <tommylee@whitlock.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 22:35:17 -0500   > There are some in current and former residences here in Washington. > One was up at Chevy Chase Circle, whose details I forget. Another is in > a former mansion just up the block from my place, which now houses > some kind of Korean govt. mission. And there's one I think in the > Mexican embassy up on 16th St.   Also in DC is/was the McKim Mansion at 18th & R with a large Hook & = Hastings. The former mansion is about to be converted into luxery condos but it = appears that this tonally unaltered gem will be saved and installed in a new = location nearby. Some info is at http://www.hilbus.org   Cheers, TommyLee    
(back) Subject: Re: Apologies From: "Cole" <rcolev@woh.rr.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 23:23:17 -0500   Moi aussi. I'll have to admit that I was under the influence of the TMI=20 Syndrome. (Just think of the China Syndrome and what happened at Three Mile= =20 Island in Pennsylvania, i.e. a meltdown.) Only thing is--TMI doesn't mean=20 Three Mile Island, it stands for Temporary Mental Illness. I ran out of my= =20 medicine and went nuclear. Or is that "nuculer" =E0 la W?   Ross C "Cole" Votaw -- Springfield, Ohio, USA   Tim wrote: >My apologies to the List for engaging in/responding to commentary which was >off topic, and of a political nature. > >Mea Culpa, > >Tim