PipeChat Digest #4227 - Friday, January 16, 2004
 
RE: Residence Organs
  by "Mark & Cinda Towne" <mstowne@concentric.net>
Re: IRC
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
Residence Organs: Callanwolde
  by "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net>
Bench Fees
  by "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net>
Money for weddings
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: bench fees
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: Bench Fees
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: Money for weddings
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: Money for weddings
  by "Sand Lawn" <glawn@jam.rr.com>
Jerusalem
  by "black" <gblack@ocslink.com>
Bench Fees
  by "Charlie Lester" <crlester@137.com>
Re: bench fees
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Pipe Organs in Mansions
  by "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net>
Emma Ashford piece
  by "Stephen Best" <sbest@borg.com>
Re: Money for weddings
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Was Westminster Hymnal, now wandering lost
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Re: Jerusalem
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
RE: Bench Fees
  by "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Residence Organs From: "Mark & Cinda Towne" <mstowne@concentric.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 15:02:28 -0800   There is a three manual Welte in Scotty's Castle in Death Valley. A = player unit is used during the daily tours--the music room is the last stop on = the tour. It is currently not playable while work is done on the Castle.   Mark S. Towne LAs Vegas, NV   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Karl Moyer Sent: Friday, January 16, 2004 11:41 AM To: pipechat Subject: Re: Residence Organs     The home of Robert Todd Lincoln, son of Pres. Abraham Lincoln, near = Rutland VT has an Aeolian.   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org        
(back) Subject: Re: IRC From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:21:41 -0600   At 3:52 PM -0600 01/16/04, David Evangelides wrote: >I've been meaning to log onto IRC for a while. Can you send Log On >instructions, or link to connect to IRC?   The instructions on how to connect to the PipeChat IRC channel is all on the PipeChat Web Site. The page where the IRC instructions start is http://www.pipechat.org/irc.html There are even screen shots of how to set-up mIRC for those of you that might need that help.   You can also connect via your web browser, provided that it will run Java by going to http://irc.pipechat.org:8080/ That is a slower way of joining the channel if you don't have IRC software installed on your computer.   Hope to see some of you there tonight beginning at 9:00 PM EASTERN time   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Residence Organs: Callanwolde From: "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:25:24 -0500   Bud asked, "That sounds more like an Aeolian ... were the stops drawknobs = or horizontal rocker-tabs on jambs at a funny angle to the keyboards? If the latter, then it was definitely an Aeolian ... that configuration was, I believe, unique to them."   Yes, the stops were horizontally oriented rocker tabs located on the side jambs. I think the jambs were angled much like those for drawknobs, but were also sloped back. It's been close to 20 years since I viewed the console. From what you said, then, it IS and Aeolian.   Keith      
(back) Subject: Bench Fees From: "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:07:00 -0500   Mike said (and others appear to agree) "I do agree, though, that the organist should receive some sort of fee if his or her services are = replaced with a substitute, even if the substitute is a relative doing this for = free. And it should be the judgement of the organist, not the pastor."   "My" problem with this . . .   An associate joined me in my practice two years ago, and our respective salaries are based upon our individual productivities. So, in light of = this discussion of bench fees . . .   If a patient of mine decides to see my associate for any reason - maybe = they know his family, maybe they prefer his demeanor, whatever - unless I'm completely booked and cannot see this patient, should this patient be required by our practice to pay my usual office visit fee regardless, and, on top of that, to pay my associate his fee? You may say, "that's not exactly the same thing", but it seems that there is some kind of principle behind this discussion.   PLEASE don't think I'm trying to be a smart a$$. Perhaps there's just an inherent flaw in the system. Since I do not rely on playing an instrument for my living, I see it from a different angle. I guess "professional" church organists are paid much like waiters in fancy restaurants. . . they get less than minimum wage from the actual employer knowing that they will generally fare very much better than that after tips (my brother was a waiter at Steak 'n Ale). Likewise, if organists are paid a low wage for = the service playing with the possiblity (hope) that there will be "x" number = of weddings and funerals, each of which will bring in "y" amount of $, then I can see how a bench fee seems appropriate from the perspective of the organist.   Taken, though, from the perspective of a prospective wedding party, it's a little harder pill to swallow. For whatever reason I have, I may desire a particular organist to play for a wedding or funeral - for which I expect = to pay him/her a fee. It's hard to justify - from the standpoint of one = paying the bills - having to pay a fee to the resident organist for the right to play the church's organ. Perhaps it would seem different if organists brought their organs with them from church to church, so that a visiting organist was actually "renting" the organ from the resident organist.   It's not my fault - whether I'm "father of the bride" or "next of kin of = the deceased" - that the resident organist is not making the salary he thinks = he should make.   I'm just trying to find a "guiding" principle in this argument. 1. Yes, it's unfortunate that organists are not paid well. 2. Is there some PRINCIPLE that is being violated if I wish to have = someone else play the instrument and don't feel obligated to pay the regular organist for nonrendered services? 3. Does the organ belong to the church or to the organist? 4. If this had nothing to do with the organist's salary, is there = something WRONG with wanting a different organist than the resident organist to play for a particular ceremony? 5. Should it be the call of the resident organist to determine if he/she thinks the party's reason for wanting the other organist is, or is not, appropriate enough to waive the fee? 6. If a bride desires a retired minister to perform the ceremony (the regular pastor is not needed), should the pastor receive a fee even though he's not attending?   Anyway, when people are talking money and salaries, it's difficult to keep emotions out of it. In my profession, you have your HMOs because the subspecialists (who are often so grossly over-reimbursed) and generalists (who are under-reimbursed) could not solve the problem from within.   As a physician who is certified by the American Board of Family = Physicians, I can, in our physician reimbursement discussions, relate to those of you whose salaries are based upon an "implied promise" instead of a straight salary.   Sorry about offending and rambling. Keith      
(back) Subject: Money for weddings From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:23:44 -0500   On 1/16/04 3:56 PM, "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> wrote:   > I'll ask this then lurk again... >=20 > Does the church send the wedding party a bill, or require the wedding par= ty to > pay something for wedding services? Usually, the church RECOMMENDS a stip= end > to be paid to the presiding minister, priest, pastor, etc. >=20 I=B9ll offer the hardnosed answers=8Bwhich I think are right, and they worked for me for 17 years. I write as a retired ELCA pastor with experience in Wiscoonsin=8Bspecifically (Ascension Church) Milwaukee, Menominie, Janesville, etc., and formerly a friend of your now long-gone Pastor Steen (1950s); his son Dave was a classmate of mine; his (Pastor=B9s, not Dave=B9s) wife a favorite writer. .   No. The pastor has at LEAST six or eight counseling and planning sessions with bride and groom during the six to twelve months prior to the ceremony. If neither the bride nor the groom is a member of the parish, they are told (visit #1) to go to his or her own pastor for their wedding. If neither ha= s a pastor, they undergo instruction with the next =B3Inquirers=B9 Class=B2 or whatever, if this is a church they want to affiliate with and be faithful members of. If it=B9s not, forget it! We=B9re not =B3Marryin=B9 Sam=B2 here. Go to the Court House. (Tricky case: Groom is a marine at the base across the street from the church, soon to be shipped to Iraq; he=B9s a faithful member of a sister congregation eight states away; bride is unchurched, but local. Work it out with groom=B9s pastor in Nevada. Charge nothing. It=B9s just missionary/pastoral work; local pastor is functioning =B3on behalf of=B2 groom=B9= s pastor back home.)   At (if not before) visit #1, bride and groom get all the expectations and details in writing, in a nice little booklet, covering everything from mone= y to music. There they discover that there are NO CHARGES. Weddings are par= t of the ministry of this parish. Pastor is paid by the parish to do his/her ministry. No tips. Janitor is paid by the parish=8Bno business of the wedding party. Organist is paid to do HIS or HER job=8Bhow much is nobody=B9s business. No money/checks go(es) to the church. It=B9s all free (like funerals and baptisms, which are also free).   In the little booklet it says that if the couple or the families want to make a special offering TO THE CONGREGATION, that=B9s just fine. The pastor has a list of suggestions: a new chalice, a new funeral pall, a doze hymnals, an Advent wreath, next Easter=B9s Paschal candle=8Bwhatever! But from there on, it=B9s up to the couple to bring that up, if they want to. No bill= s are sent. Little booklet also hints that a gratuity to the organist or the janitor is fine, but not expected. Totally up to them. (If I were suggesting, I=B9d say $100-200 for the organist, and $20 or so for the janitor. But I=B9m not. Both those people get PAID decently by the parish for their services, not by the =B3party.=B2)   > What I'm trying to get at, is church's usually don't REQUIRE payment for > services rendered.   See above. =20 >=20 I'm MOST sure that there are exceptions, though,   Of course; like the away-from-home marine. But make your decisions on such cases in the direction of =B3no charge.=B2 Everybody gets paid, but by the congregation, not by the people to whom the congregation ministering! Isn=B9= t =B3otherwise=B2 quie =B3tacky=B2?   but in my experinece the church didn't require payment.   So we=B9re together on that.   > If it's a popular church, though, or in the peak of wedding season, I've = seen > that this is required, but that seems to be the exception rather than the > rule.   Well, the other course, quite opposite from my own, is: =B3You want services=8Bwe got =B9em for sale here. Come rent our Las Vegas chapel, and our handsome pastor, and KEWL blond organist! We also have a special on baptisms this month. Please read up on =8Csimony=B9 in any dictionary!=B2 But i= n that case, charge the HUGEST amount you can possibly get away with. But, obviously, that=B9s not where I=B9m coming from. >=20 > I do agree, though, that the organist should receive some sort of fee if = his > or her services are replaced with a substitute, even if the substitute is= a > relative doing this for free.   Unquestionably. =20   > And it should be the judgement of the organist, not the pastor, unless th= e > pastor is aware of remuneration and passes this information to the weddin= g > party. >=20 In short, if the wedding party chooses the church to be married in,   NO! That=B9s the way you choose a funeral parlor, or a shoe shop, or a drug store, or a fishmonger, not a church. What on earth is the problem here? Why would anyone want to get married in somebody ELSE=B9s church. Go for you own, or forget it!=20   > then the church should have a policy on reumeration for their services.   And now you know what I think it should be. (Well, you asked!) >=20 > Now, what if a family member of a major donor get married? How is that > handled?   Depends on what kind of prostitute you are. (Now, that=B9s not nice, Alan!!) Handled the same way: No Charge.) >=20 > I know I've thrown out some contradicting thoughts, so as you can see my = mind > is wide open on this subject.   I=B9ll hope so, Mike.   Alan >=20          
(back) Subject: Re: bench fees From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:27:02 EST   Mike,   You're certainly right in that clergy is not "paid" to administer the sacraments (I am resisting the urge to get way, way off topic and diverge = into who actually "administers" the sacrament of marriage) but it is customary in = most traditions I know of to provide the minister or priest (or deacon) with a stipend.   As for organists, most churches have a wedding policy. This usually = informs the bride-and-groom-to-be (and, of course, the ever-present mother-of-the-bride) about the parish's wedding protocol and contains = information about organist's fees, sexton's or facilities fees, whether or not alcohol is = permitted at on-site receptions, etc. In some parishes, the organist's (and other) fees = are payable to the parish and the parish cuts a check to the organist. This is = my preferred arrangement. At others, the organist receives a check directly = from a family member--if you're lucky, before the wedding takes place (again, resisting urge to tell some choice stories about late-starting or aborted = weddings). I'm sure there are other ways of handling this, especially at smaller churches with fewer weddings, and I'd be interested to hear about this.   Now, it has been asked "what if a family member of a major donor gets married? How is that handled?" My answer is "quite often, it's handled = badly". In November I played a wedding for a "major donor" and got badly mistreated = and financially stiffed. Were I not very new in my job at the time, I would = have handled the situation differently. This happened because my church has no = written wedding policy! (The Rector and I will be writing one). However, it should = be no different with major donors than with the couple that doesn't pledge. Everything should be clearly spelled out in the wedding policy, and = exceptions should be made rarely, if ever.   Bill H.    
(back) Subject: Re: Bench Fees From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:30:45 EST   Kieth, It's interesting to hear your point of view. My "other half" is a = physician, and we've actually had this conversation. Based on that, I'm going to stay = out of this for a while! Bill H.    
(back) Subject: Re: Money for weddings From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:37:16 EST   Alan,   I agree with you, but many churches do indeed require the family to pay = the organist. (Gee, how I miss working for the Lutherans sometimes--they DO = pay their musicians!) Bill H.    
(back) Subject: Re: Money for weddings From: "Sand Lawn" <glawn@jam.rr.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:03:57 -0600   I play for a church with a small congregation, so there are only two or = three weddings a year for members. Those weddings are part of my = contract, but usually there is check on top of that. But, as this = church is particularly well positioned, it is a choice of venue for at = least ten other weddings a year by non-members. Everything to do with = non-member weddings, the choice of music, musicians, fees, consultation, = rehearsals, etc. is up to one of the two organists who are in the employ = of the church. In five years, there have been no requests for any = variation. Everything is spelled out in the "Wedding Book for = Northminster." Frequently, the choice of Northminster is made because = of the very traditional music program. That makes me feel quite good = about my situation.   Sand www.northmin.com    
(back) Subject: Jerusalem From: "black" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:40:30 -0600     Thanks to all who gave me information on the hymn tune Jerusalem by Hubert Parry. I have a copy now and it dosen't look like this is sight reading material. lol I need a challenge, so off I go to practice. Thanks, = Gary      
(back) Subject: Bench Fees From: "Charlie Lester" <crlester@137.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:21:58 -0800   This just happened to me, but only was indirectly the pastor's fault. He had called me last weekend to play a funeral tomorrow. Then when I saw him Wednesday he said that I wouldn't be needed because the mortuary was sending over a "keyboard player" that was included as part of the package offered the family.   Immediately my hackles rose and I quickly moved in to mark my territory. "Well, they're not going to use the Casavant are they?" (Actually I do have a good reason for this - console problems, some of which caused by people who don't know how to set pistons on a Casavant console). He said, "No, he'll be bringing his own keyboard."   Lovely.   I said, "Well, theoretically, since I am the organist, any music-related duties shoooould be offered me first -- if I -am- able to play and someone else is brought in, there should be a bench fee. Unless I can't do the service."   He looked at me like I announced that I had just flown in on a spaceship from Mars! "Bench Fee?!"   I said, "Yes, it's perfectly reasonable to be to be expected to be retained - and paid - to do the job I was hired to do. When someone goes to a nice restaurant for dinner, would they presume to bring in their own chef? If they go to the hospital to have their appendix removed, would they hire their own surgeon?"   He got the point. Don't get me wrong. The pastor is a very dear man and did not do this deliberately or maliciously; he just didn't "think it through." Part of the problem in my situation is that there was NO organist in this church for more than two years. They're finding that having someone there now is taking some getting accustomed to.   ~ C    
(back) Subject: Re: bench fees From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:22:50 -0500   On 1/16/04 7:27 PM, "DERREINETOR@aol.com" <DERREINETOR@aol.com> wrote:   > it should be no different with major donors than with the couple that doe= sn't > pledge. Everything should be clearly spelled out in the wedding policy, a= nd > exceptions should be made rarely, if ever. >=20 Couldn=B9t agree more.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organs in Mansions From: "Mike Gettelman" <mike3247@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:33:21 -0500       DudelK@aol.com wrote:   > (snip) > > Would that all our mansions large and small had an > organ that was just right for the owner/occupant!   I have often joked on list about my Casio with the light up keys, but it has done yeoman duty in my one bedroom apartment to teach my ear about harmonics, resultants, and other musical subjects I learn about from all of you. It also allows me to enjoy forming the chords that are so thrilling when heard in live organ performance or on a recording. I really can't "play" a lick on keyboards, but coming from a back round of trumpet performance, can read the music, and have begun to collect scores for some of the works I love to hear. It gives me endless pleasure to "noodle" around with these. I have also bought a large fake book, and the named chords allow me to actually perform some tunes without having to build those chords note by note. So, from the humblest of resident organs, great joy is realized, and by using the headphones, my performance remains a very private matter. Cheers Mike Gettelman    
(back) Subject: Emma Ashford piece From: "Stephen Best" <sbest@borg.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:51:19 -0500   Hi everyone,   A friend has asked if I could locate a copy of Emma Louise Ashford's "Fanfare in G Minor," as recorded by Martin Mans (see http://vandenheuvel-orgelbouw.nl/cds/Cds-katarina_nl.htm). Mans did not use a score -- he recreated an earlier recording made by Feike Asma. Ashford was born in Delaware in 1950, died in Nashville in 1930. Many of her keyboard works were published in the early 1900's by Lorenz in collections of "voluntaries."   Steve Best in Utica, NY    
(back) Subject: Re: Money for weddings From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:56:36 -0500   On 1/16/04 7:37 PM, "DERREINETOR@aol.com" <DERREINETOR@aol.com> wrote:   > I agree with you, but many churches do indeed require the family to pay t= he > organist. (Gee, how I miss working for the Lutherans sometimes--they DO = pay > their musicians!) >=20 Well, they should not; and that=B9s what I=B9m very much AGAINST! The congregation should pay its own employees! Does any organist want to be a free lance? What could be clearer than that? Give the organist some professional REALITY, for Pete=B9s sake.   Look at it this way: You=B9re going to be paid by the bride=B9s father. You want to take orders from him (and his wife) and their daughter? Aren=B9t yo= u a better man than that? As wretched as your pastor may be (and many ARE), he=B9s surely no competition for a bride=B9s mother!! (That should end THAT subject!) =20   All they (of any denomination, including most definitely my own) need is a bit of pastoral theology. I think Acts 8 talks about it. If not, I=B9ll tr= y harder. (Eyes tired tonight.)   NO family should ever pay ANY organist. For ANYthing! (Gratuity, SURE!) He/She should be paid, and paid WELL, but by the (presumably-countable-onable) congregation, not the indefinable =B3users=B2 of his/her talents on various occasions.   Alan        
(back) Subject: Was Westminster Hymnal, now wandering lost From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:07:10 EST   What Peter knew, and the rest of you didn't, is that I am a cancer survivor.= =20 I am permanently and totally disabled by the treatment - the cost I paid to=20 stay alive. And I have to pay out of pocket for medical insurance, or go=20 uninsured, as I didn't pay enough into the system to qualify for Medicare an= d have=20 too many assets for Medicaid.   Peter, thank you for your defense. =20   Love ya all, Victoria   Hello octaaf@charter.net,   In reference to your comment:   hmmmm .... off topic?=A0 yep.=A0 true?=A0 yep. yep. yep.=A0 Oh my, I forgot:= =A0 Thou=20 Shalt NOT be critical of the "W" ... it's unpatriotic.=A0 I'm sure THAT will= be=20 included in the text of PATRIOT ACT II. =A0 Stop this now indeed.=A0 News flash ... not everyone is a lock step Republic= an=20 Peter. Get over yourself.   > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From: Storandt, Peter=20 > To: PipeChat=20 > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 4:16 PM > Subject: RE: Westminster Hymnal (x post) >=20 >=20 > Stop this now. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Co= le > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 4:19 PM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Re: Westminster Hymnal (x post) >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Almost anything, Victoria. Herr Busch doesn't seem to know his people need= =20 > good healthcare. We cannot get it unless we are very well healed. (There's= a=20 > funny in there somewhere.)=A0 (8-) >=20 > Oh, my, am I sounding bitter here? I know, what a novel idea it is that a=20 > government should "promote the general Welfare"! >=20 > Victoria wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > I think it's possible to get ANYTHING in the U.S.=A0 <g> >=20 >=20 >=20    
(back) Subject: Re: Jerusalem From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:34:17 -0800   Be sure it's the ORIGINAL accompaniment in D major from Hymns Ancient and Modern, and not the emasculated one in C from the Episcopal Hymnal 1989 ... if you need the A & M version, I have it in the computer.   Cheers,   Bud   black wrote:   > Thanks to all who gave me information on the hymn tune Jerusalem by = Hubert > Parry. I have a copy now and it dosen't look like this is sight = reading > material. lol I need a challenge, so off I go to practice. Thanks, = Gary > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: RE: Bench Fees From: "Mike Franch" <mike6514@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 20:55:32 -0600   >From: "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net> >Reply-To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> >To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> >Subject: Bench Fees >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 19:07:00 -0500   >3. Does the organ belong to the church or to the organist?   My answer to the above brings this question: I think that most organists, even though they don't personally own the organ, still consider it to be theirs, like one's desk at the office, or one's parking spot outside of = the hospital (sorry, couldn't resist). Yes, you don't own the desk, but its yours. You have your personality in it. Your work (music by the organ) the =   arrangements of things on your desk (piston settings) and making it comfortable for you (bench height, mirrors, cushions, any other comforts that make playing convenient and comfortable for you). You don't want someone else working at your desk rearranging things, adjusting the seat = and moving stuff from one drawer to the other. And you wouldn't want someone else making money, at your expense, using your "tools of the trade." Not knowing the medical profession, aren't their tools of the trade that you consider to be "yours" but you don't own, or when you leave, are not = taken?   >4. If this had nothing to do with the organist's salary, is there >something >WRONG with wanting a different organist than the resident organist to = play >for a particular ceremony?   Okay, here's a bold statement: One has to have a respect for the worship space and the people who make that worship space worshipable. (Whew! = Wiping sweat off my brow for that one!)   Mike Franch Madison, WI   _________________________________________________________________ Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips = here. http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx