PipeChat Digest #4229 - Saturday, January 17, 2004 RE: bench fees by "Mike Conrady" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Vierne's Pieces de Fantaisie - corrections to scores by "Mark Quarmby" <email@example.com> RE: Prostitutes??? by "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Weddings by <RMB10@aol.com> Re: Residence Organs by "Daniel Hopkins" <email@example.com> Re: wedding fees by <RVScara@aol.com> RE: Prostitutes??? by "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Prostitutes??? by "jch" <email@example.com> Re: WEdding Fees by <RVScara@aol.com> Re: Bench Fees by <RVScara@aol.com> Re: Money for weddings by "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Pipe Organs in Mansions by "Octaaf" <email@example.com> RE: Prostitutes??? by "Jeff White" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Prostitutes??? by "Jeff White" <email@example.com> Re: Jerusalem by "Kenneth Potter" <firstname.lastname@example.org> reservoirs by "black" <email@example.com> RE: bench fees by "Glenda" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Prostitutes??? by "bobelms" <email@example.com> RE: Prostitutes??? by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Residence Organs by "=3D?Windows-1252?B?QW5kculzIEf8bnRoZXI=3D?=3D" <email@example.com Wanted: Music Critiques! (a little bit off topic...) by "Stephen Barker" <firstname.lastname@example.org> IRC by "Bob Conway" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: RE: bench fees From: "Mike Conrady" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:47:15 -0500 (EST) As a newbie to the group who finds himself ministering as a full-time = musician, I could not stop myself from responding to this thread. Bear in = mind that I am speaking only from my own experience. >2. Is there some PRINCIPLE that is being violated if I wish to have = someone >else play the instrument and don't feel obligated to pay the regular >organist for nonrendered services? > YES. While the organ may not belong to the organist, I have found that the = organist does belong to the church, much as a pastor might. Some pastors = will not permit other ministers to perform marriages in their church, = regardless of whether or not the other minister really is a 2nd cousin of = the groom or a better homilist. It might even be argued that the organist = belongs to the organ, while employed there. But much more importantly, it has also been my experience that most people = do not understand the role of church musicians when it comes to = facilitating weddings. I have a hard time with the useage of the word = "nonrendered", because it seems to assume that plopping down on the bench = and playing an hour-long service is the summation of all that we organists = do. The simple truth is that I charge a bench fee because outside musicians = are usually a colossal pain. While I understand the desire for outside = organists and gladly facilitate them, I also sleep well at night, knowing = that I have earned my bench fee. I have found that when other musicians play for services I spend as much, = if not more, time in preparation for the wedding than if I had just played = the thing myself. Between music consultations with the couple, helping = explain the church's music guidelines, coordinating hymnals and worship = aids, faxing and mailing liturgical music settings, consultations with the = minister, phone consultations with the guest musicians, coordinating = practice times for musicians, making appointments with guest organists to = acclimate them to the organ and explain the sound system, being "on call" = for any problems (sometimes being present at the wedding itself), and = being the general "go to" person for music issues, I usually find that I = have done as much as any other paid professional. As an aside, I also find that bench fees help foster the appreciation of = the organist as a minister... Most people simply never consider the = organist as a minister or a professional until they encounter a situation = whereby they are required to respect the individual as both. (When I was = in college, the smartest thing I ever did as an organist was to double my = wedding fee. I was amazed to find that I received more respect, courtesy, = and even appreciation for the same services rendered!) >5. Should it be the call of the resident organist to determine if he/she >thinks the party's reason for wanting the other organist is, or is not, >appropriate enough to waive the fee? > YES. It should be the call of the resident organist. After all, this is = the person who suffers from running themselves ragged from = responsibilities that would be considered above and beyond their normal = paid duties. I have found myself waiving bench fees on multiple occasions for a = multitude of reasons. I have played countless free weddings, funerals, = services, etc. as part of my way of giving back to the community, or = donated my fee to a cause (such as the organ fund), at appropriate times. = Above all, I find that my conscience is the best guide, as I strive to = minister in accordance with the Gospel message. Ultimately, the decision = is mine, as part of the responsibility entrusted to me by the people I = serve- the greater church community. Well gang, thanks for letting me get that off my chest... Mike Conrady (Happily serving the Prince of Peace Catholic Community in Plano, TX)
(back) Subject: Vierne's Pieces de Fantaisie - corrections to scores From: "Mark Quarmby" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 22:33:34 +1100 Today I started my summer clean-up and came across a copy of the April/May 1993 "Sydney Organ Journal" in which we published the textural corrections to the "Pi=E8ces de fantaisie" of Vierne as researched and supplied by Olivie= r Latry after one of his visits to Sydney. He had recently recorded the complete "Fantasy Pieces" and during a masterclass in Sydney was correcting our scores. We encouraged him to document them all and we published them no= t long after. I believe "The Tracker"(OHS - USA) and possibly "The Organists' Review" (UK) sought permission from us to reprint them. As this was nearly 11 years ago, there may be many organists out there who missed these publications and would love to have a copy of the corrections. I have spent some time today trying to scan them so that they are still readable and the file size is as small as possible. I found the best way was to save the several scanned pages as one pdf file. That way one can easily download thi= s and read or print it out. The file size is about 1.9MB. I have uploaded the pdf file to the website of the "Organ Music Society of Sydney" (also an AGO Chapter): http://welcome.to/sydneyorgan Go to the link for the "Sydney Organ Journal" and you will see the link to the Vierne Pi=E8ces. Cheers, Mark
(back) Subject: RE: Prostitutes??? From: "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 20:36:04 +0800 "Prostitutes"? WHat a strange suggestion! I have said before on this list that in this state very few organists are paid for their services to the churches. However one of the perks of the position is that for weddings and funerals we ARE paid. Why shouldn't we be? Most of the weddings and many of the funerals are for people who rarely if ever attend church, but who might have had some connection in their past or fancied the church for the ceremony. With weddings we have a beautiful historic building and some weddings are held in the church because of that. These people pay a fortune for the reception and for the band they engage so why should not the organist be paid too? Incidentally for church members, by agreement , we do not charge. Bob Elms. ---- Original Message ---- From: email@example.com To: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: RE: Prostitutes??? Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:15:40 -0800 >Per the rather sanguine suggestion that organists who >(reasonably) expect to get paid for their services are >PROSTITUTES ... Well, I'll withhold the barbed repart=E9e >poised on my tongue...
(back) Subject: Re: Weddings From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 08:11:51 EST Charlies Lester brought up an interesting point about using other intstrumentalists and <shudder> "canned" music. My church has a policy = that there is no canned music during a service--EVER. There are no accompaniment tracks to = be played behind a soloist, an ensemble, any of the choirs, etc. We have a 4 = manual pipe organ, a grand piano, an orchestra, 4 octaves of handbells, a = full set of tone chimes, Hammond organ, access to several keyboards, plus drums = and electric bass, if needed. We've pretty much got any studio orchestration covered. Guess who this directive came from? The Pastor. He is also the = one who has decided that in the new church there will be no projection Jumbotron screens up in front, saying that he didn't want the church to look like an = auditorium, he wanted the church to look like a church. Anyway, back to the point, oftentimes, our families choose to do = visitations at the church for one hour prior to the funeral service. I usually end up = playing for about 30 minutes of prelude, but for the first little bit, = we've got some beautiful CD's of orchestra hymns that will be played until I come = out to play. The Pastor lets that slide because it's not during the service, and = it's just "mood music" more to cover the soft talking. The other time = that a CD will be used is when one of our Liturgical Dance groups dances during a service. With the current set-up in our church, if our orchestra was = playing while the girls danced, they would be in the way of each other, so we are kind = of forced to use a recording. We have to take out the first 2 or 3 rows of = pews when the dance so there is room for them. That problem is solved with the = design of our new church where the pulpit will be moveable and the = platform area will have enough room for the dancers. At that time, the CD's will all = but be phased out. So, for all intents and purposes, CD's are not allowed during any service = at my church. No "canned" music would ever be allowed for a wedding = processional and never allowed for accompanying a soloist, which has been met with = utter disbelief by some guest singers. They just can't understand why we don't = allow it. Our answer is always the same. "It's the church's policy. We have capable musicians who can play whatever you want to sing." The problem is = usually that the soloist can't sing and that the CD covers up a multitude of sins that are exposed when singing with live musicians. Anyway, at Friendship = Baptist Church, don't come expecting to sing with or hear "canned" music.....it's only live here, not Memorex. Monty Bennett Friendship Baptist Church Charlotte, NC
(back) Subject: Re: Residence Organs From: "Daniel Hopkins" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:13:29 -0400 It seems that years ago when a pipe organ was installed in a residence, the use was more for entertaining then for to practice on. The use of the player mechanism probly would explain this on many organs of the past Today it seems an organ in a residence is used more for practicing Organists or organ buffs. Danielwh
(back) Subject: Re: wedding fees From: <RVScara@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:27:30 EST in reply to Richard Hazelip, I totally agree with your comments and = feelings. I have played many "free" funerals, voluntarily, for members who have been = active supporters of the parish in some way (teachers, organizations, = choir, etc.) or when the Pastor or Funeral Director, anyone, lets me know there = is a financial problem. I do the same for weddings. I have angst, tho, over = being argued with or stiffed by bridal parties about my measly fee when I see = 5-6 brides maids, flowers galore, and several limos outside, and know they = have booked one of the most expensive catering halls. I guess most of us have gone = thru that.
(back) Subject: RE: Prostitutes??? From: "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:38:05 -0600 At 06:36 AM 1/17/04, you wrote: >"Prostitutes"? WHat a strange suggestion! I have said before on this >list that in this state very few organists are paid for their >services to the churches. It never ceases to amaze me when someone seems to think it is terrible for = church musicians to be paid for there services. Even the great Bach received compensation for his services in the form of firewood, pigs and other necessities of the day. A craftsman who performs any services for = the church other than worship related submits his bill and is usually promptly = paid. Fix the plumbing and no one questions your right to be paid, furnish = music and suddenly you are expected to do your all for the Lord. No one ever seems to suggest the plumber do his bit for the Glory of the Lord. = The organist spends years developing his skills so he can praise the Lord through his music and provide this worship experience for the worshippers. = Woe unto to him he expects to eat too. Jon
(back) Subject: Re: Prostitutes??? From: "jch" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:44:04 -0600 At 12:15 AM 1/17/04, you wrote: >As for the suggestion "Why would people want to get married in a = different >church? Let them get married in their own!" You are assuming that they go to church. It is not unusual for a couple to = shop for a church because they want the setting for the wedding, not because of any religious significant. We have less the usual number of weddings in our church as our pastor insists that if the couple are not part of our congregation, that they attend for three months prior to their = wedding. If they balk at that suggestion, he tells them the church is not available to them for their wedding. At least one couple that complied thanked him later for bringing them back to church. Our sanctuary is a place of worship, not a hall for hire. Jon
(back) Subject: Re: WEdding Fees From: <RVScara@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:13:54 EST "kzrev" wrote concerning allowing non-members to get married in his = church, etc... We had to draw the line there, several years ago, when we were becoming a Wedding Chapel with people from other parishes wanting to be married "in = your beautiful church." It is beautiful inside: 70' high vaulted ceiling, large support pillars, = domed sanctuary, stained glass windows, beautiful acoustics, majestic old = altar, and fine sounding toaster. It could be a money maker. Unfortunately, there is more to it than that. = Pre-wedding classes, background checks that both are "free" to marry in = the RC Church and in good standing in some parish, etc. All these take time and someone to do the work. Plus, in New Jersey, there is a one-year waiting = period in every diocese from the time you notify a pastor of your intent to marry to = the wedding date in order to accomplish all the above requirements. = (Exceptions do exist in emergency cases such as pregnancy, etc., but those weddings = are supposed to be performed "in private" with no fanfare.) We now limit our services to members. Guest Ministers (Priests/Deacons) are welcome to perform the ceremony. = Guest soloists, also. We have already discussed outside organists.
(back) Subject: Re: Bench Fees From: <RVScara@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:19:38 EST "criester" wrote about his church making one flat fee to cover all, and whether he played, or not... Love that policy and it would solve any problem I have. I'll propose it = to the new Pastor and see how far I get for myself. We control what is sung, = but not who sings it...they can bring in anyone so that would be eliminated = from the overall charge.
(back) Subject: Re: Money for weddings From: "F Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:11:42 -0600 Hello, Alan< et al: You wrote: > Money for weddingsNO family should ever pay ANY > organist. For ANYthing! (Gratuity, SURE!) He/She > should be paid, and paid WELL... Where have you been, my friend? In my life time, I have found very few people who are well paid in ANY church related job. Exclude from those who are paid a salary by the churches, evangelists, TV personalities, contemporary recording artists, etc., but regular church employees seldom make much, ...as in "paid well." F. Richard Burt ..
(back) Subject: Re: Pipe Organs in Mansions From: "Octaaf" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:17:06 -0600 Peter wrote: "Unfortunately, neither TommyLee nor I have the space and, = er, resources to take on this beauty, but we are enjoying our present = home instruments" This is probably true for most of us. While a pipe organ is = preferrable, they are quite costly and require a good deal of space and = maintenance. Having an analog or digital organ at home is much less = costly, and is certainly a practical alternative. I purchased a new Cantor Positive digital organ (2 manual/Pedal, 32 = stops) for my home last year, and find it delightful ... especially when = it is -15F here in northern WI! Beats driving 12 miles to the church to = practice any time ... Tim --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.561 / Virus Database: 353 - Release Date: 1/13/2004
(back) Subject: RE: Prostitutes??? From: "Jeff White" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:23:25 -0600 > Incidentally for church members, by agreement , we do not charge. > Bob Elms. We do not charge for the use of the building, but the organist and related staff (wedding consultants, sound guy, pastor) ARE paid when weddings are done for members. Let's think about this for a second, though. 1- Electricity -- it takes an instant $5 the minute we turn on the lights. This also includes the sound system, the fans to run the heating/cooling system, the organ, lights in all surrounding rooms used prior to the = wedding and continue to burn during picture taking and subsequent "standing around and talking so the staff can't leave and lock up the building", and the = same to do for the rehearsal. 2- AC/Heating - Gas, electric--all adds up. 3- TIME -- Weddings can take place at any time outside of worship hours, = so I have to adjust my life (and so does everyone else) to go around it. We don't get a whole lot of weddings, but the BULK of weddings I've played in all three churches I've served were non-members. 4- Cleanup. There's always cleanup afterwards: Taking down bows and other decorations, picking up bulletins left in pews, removing archways and any other "flair" brought in by the florist or wedding couple, sweeping up petals, removing the tape holding down the aisle runner, putting away = candle stands for candlelight weddings, throwing away dropped Kleenexes, candy wrappers, etc left behind by people, throwing away soda cans left sitting around, and generally just getting the church back into order for worship services. 5- Counseling sessions - with Pastor and Organist. 6- Extra rehearsals for "Aunt Marge" because she doesn't want to (and shouldn't) just come in and sing "cold," all of which may involve #1, #2, and #3 again. OK, you get the point. Weddings COST the church money to put on. I'm not saying we SHOULDN'T, or that members shouldn't get a break (and they do), but factor in that the dress cost a pretty penny, the catering is going to be outrageous (and still have a lot of leftover food), the Band and/or DJ, the booze... Jeff
(back) Subject: RE: Prostitutes??? From: "Jeff White" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:25:31 -0600 > At 12:15 AM 1/17/04, you wrote: > >As for the suggestion "Why would people want to get married in a > different > >church? Let them get married in their own!" > > You are assuming that they go to church. Well, and not just that. Sometimes we've had couples that want to get married and (for example) the Catholic church won't marry them for one reason or another (divorced couple, or one isn't RC, or whatever). So, = they find a nice Lutheran church that can do the ceremony (in our case, that = is). I've had couples choose our church just because it's pretty. OK, I can = deal with that. However, I will say that maybe less than 1% of the couples that weren't members ever came back to worship with us again. Jeff
(back) Subject: Re: Jerusalem From: "Kenneth Potter" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:39:31 -0800 (PST) Too few people take advantage of, or just don't know about The Public Domain Choral Library at http://cpdl.snaptel.com/index.php. It contains over 6000 anthems, solos, etc that are no longer under copyright. They have all been put up on the site by volunteers who made new editions using their music software programs and contributed to the library. There you will find a great pdf file with "Jerusalem" that prints out to look like the most expensive octavo you would buy. Entire masses and oratorios are there for the copying, and all completely legal and proper. Looking for that traditional anthem or solo, just print it out and photocopy to your hearts content. Just be aware that some of the music is out of copyright in some countries, but not others depending on local laws. There - I just increased your library by 6000 anthems! Ken =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Kenneth Potter, Organist/Director of Music St. Peter's Episcopal Church, Westchester Square, Bronx, NY 845/358-2528 <email@example.com>, Austin Op. 2097 at: = http://www.nycago.org/Organs/html/StPetersEpBronx.html Randolph Organ Company, curators =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
(back) Subject: reservoirs From: "black" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:12:36 -0600 HI list, What is the difference between a reservoir that has a curtain valve and one that has a cone valve? Which is better for use in the = organ? I have an old Hinners cone reservoir that needs new leather; I am not = using it at the moment though. Thanks, Gary
(back) Subject: RE: bench fees From: "Glenda" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 14:35:46 -0600 Mike, I sent you a private reply to commend you on your reply to the group, but it didn't "go". That was one of the best replies yet on the subject. Glenda Sutton firstname.lastname@example.org (who chose playing the organ on the side because of the "money for nothing and the chicks for free" - but what do I do with all these Rhode Island Reds?)
(back) Subject: RE: Prostitutes??? From: "bobelms" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 07:30:39 +0800 I did not say it is terrible for organists to be paid for their services. IN our case most of the churches have not the finance to pay an organist a salary, nor is there the work to justify paying an organist even half time except in the cathedrals and larger central churches. Bob Elms. - > >It never ceases to amaze me when someone seems to think it is >terrible for >church musicians to be paid for there services.
(back) Subject: RE: Prostitutes??? From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 20:26:58 -0400 Andres Gunther email@example.com There always are people who think that Music in Church must be done "For = the Glory of God" **ALONE**. The first is more than okay with me; the second would be okay with me if the grocery store and the power, gas, water and phone comps. would give me their services or goods for free or a 50% = rebate because I am working in my parish or a church elsewhere. Of course, that's not the case <SG> That people *still* don't understand that I have to get money for my services at church to do a living because that's my profession, lies in = the fact that too many good willing aficionados give away their services for free or for a misery. This, IMHO, is a sin against their given talents, = and worse, a sin and unfair competition against colleagues who studied hard = for several years to do what they do. So much for the "prostitute"... BTW if anybody would dare to call me so because I charge an honest (and more than reasonable) fee for my = profession I would send him straight to the hospital. As for weddings in other parishes or congregational churches, there are several hands-on wedding favourite churches in Caracas. The main reasons = for this are, in this exact order: *Safe neighbourhood *Pretty architecture *Less bureaucratic obstacles by the Parishes or Rectors. To this last point it's interesting to note that I know some Parishes or Rectors who amount irrisory bureaucratic requests to couples precisely = with the idea to get rid of the marriages in their church. The "why" they do = this is worth another discussion... but it would be off topic.- Note that a = good organ and a worthy organist are *not* a reason to choose or prefer a = certain church for wedding. [2nd <SG>] Yours Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.
(back) Subject: RE: Residence Organs From: "=3D?Windows-1252?B?QW5kculzIEf8bnRoZXI=3D?=3D" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 20:27:43 -0400 Andres Gunther email@example.com Indeed, this seems to be right. The Residence organ industry went down = when a) Phonograph and Radio broadcasting technology had improved to acceptable fidelity levels. b) New tax laws and the Great Depression took their bite = on millionaires... What most impressed me of the Callanwolde organ (Yes, it is an Aeolian, built 1919 and enlarged 1920 and 1923), was that you walk = around in the mansion and hear the organ everywhere without seeing it. When it plays automatically the effect becomes sheer ghostly! Cheers Andres (who enjoyed it a lot) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about. ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Hopkins <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: PipeChat <email@example.com> Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 12:13 PM Subject: Re: Residence Organs > It seems that years ago when a pipe organ was installed in a residence, > the use was more for entertaining then for to practice on. The use of = the > player mechanism probly would explain this on many organs of the past > Today it seems an organ in a residence is used more for practicing > Organists or organ buffs. > Danielwh
(back) Subject: Wanted: Music Critiques! (a little bit off topic...) From: "Stephen Barker" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:22:08 +0000 For the last couple of months I've been working on a setting of the Eucharist for Unison voices and organ, for a choir festival later in the year (about 400 choristers). Having just about finished the first complete version, I'd quite like some volunteers to give me some feedback - hopefully a mixture of both positive and constructive! If you would be happy to have a look/listen/play then email me privately with your email address and whether you'd like the file as a Scorch file (the Sibelius web format), a pdf, or maybe something else! Anyone interested?! Steve Barker Canterbury UK P.S. If you do send me your email, please make the subject clear - my email spam filter sometimes gets a bit over protective!
(back) Subject: IRC From: "Bob Conway" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 19:49:45 -0500 Hi Folks, Is anyone going to be on IRC this evening? It is too cold for anything else! Hopefully, Bob