PipeChat Digest #4592 - Monday, July 5, 2004 Re: (no subject) by "Noel Stoutenburg" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: (no subject) by <Swedish5702@aol.com> RE: (no subject) by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Re: (no subject) by "Roger Brown" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: (no subject) From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 04:14:10 -0500 Swedish5702@aol.com wrote: > *Question? > > What the heck is wrong with the ELCA and their fixation on separation > of Church and State?* I think it goes back to a Jewish man, who said "render unto C=E6sar the things that are C=E6sar's, and to God the things that are God's." > *Don't they realize if it wasn't for the U.S. Military, America would > be either slaves or dead if we hadn't won WW2?* And what bearing does this have on a church in the U.S. today? > *My local ELCA in South Williamsport refuses to put the American flag > and the church flag in the sanctuary.* And the reason they give for the refusal is.... > *The Methodists...Baptists...UCC...Roman Churches all proudly display > the flag. Plus, the Crystal Cathedral has the largest indoor American > Flag.* So what do you think: are they not as familiar with the writings of that Jewish fellow.as the congregation in South Williamsport, or do they think that it doesn't matter whether or not they heed what he said? ns.
(back) Subject: Re: (no subject) From: <Swedish5702@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 05:38:21 EDT The bearing of the results of the outcome of WW2 has direct meaning. IF = the USA and her allies had lost the global war to Germany...Japan and Italy we = would all be slaves or dead. Our country is one of many freedoms and the entire rest of the world is jealous of our success. Man on the moon...the freedom to do practically anything lawful...the = freedom of the Voting Act...Freedom of Speech...I don't need to elaborate. There are 6 ELCA churches in the greater Williamsport, Pa. area. Four have = flags and two don't. They all at one time had the US flag and Church flag. Only St. Luke and Messiah don't practice this ritual any longer. I am sure strong ministers = have turned the tide in those two parishes. However, the church is nothing w/0 the congregation and for the life of me = I just can't understand the present members not wanting our flag there especially in these trying times. I realize it is a freedom we enjoy to either have them near the altar or = not. It just is a puzzlement to me. Thank You for your thoughts on the subject. Also, in those two churches no national music is played as it violates = church and state. I find that pour BS! The largest church is St. Mark and a very fine organist named Dick Lakey always plays the National Hymn for Memorial Day and July 4th. Those two = very important dates in our history are nothing unless I hear GOD OF OUR = FATHERS played on the 3/40 Moller Deluxe. Being a Moller, it lacks the depth of an EM SKINNER or AS or even a = Schantz. I heard dear Virgil play it back in 1960 and when he played the hymn for singing THE CHURCH'S ONE FOUNDATION the flues...mixtures and pedal just = were not there. When Professor Fred Weaver of Peabody visited my Grandparents church at = St. Luke Refromed (UCC) in Lock Haven, the small by today's standards 2-14 EM Skinner ran circles around anything Moller ever attempted. ES!
(back) Subject: RE: (no subject) From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:58:41 +1200 >The bearing of the results of the outcome of WW2 has direct meaning. IF = the USA and her allies had lost the global war to Germany...Japan and Italy we would all be slaves or dead. Yes, indeed, the Allies (which included Russia, and it suffered terrible losses) had to win WWII. >Our country is one of many freedoms and the entire rest of the world is jealous of our success. Do you really believe that? NZ jealous of the USA, and every other country jealous as well. Get real, please. >Man on the moon...the freedom to do practically anything lawful...the freedom of the Voting Act...Freedom of Speech...I don't need to elaborate. No, you don't, because other countries have even more freedom than the USA does. In NZ, for example, we are free of nuclear arms, nuclear ships, and nuclear electricity generation. NZ has no enemies. NZ has no subsidies to its farmers, where the USA has crippling subsidies. NZ has no import = tariffs at all, yet the USA is full of them. We have an economy growing faster = than the USA's. NZ has no gun problem, while it's horrendous in the USA. NZ has never had slavery, but has had a very much better relationship (though certainly not perfect) with its native people and others who have come = here. NZ speaks English. The USA tries not to. The USA invented horrendities = like McDonalds, baseball, Hollywood, ghastly fundamentalism, Spong, the need = for court rulings on who won an election, Richard Nixon, George W.Bush, and so very much more. Eeeekkkkk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But the USA has many wonderful things and people as well. Seriously. And I've been thrilled with the two spells of a few weeks each that I spent in the San Francisco area and would love to see a lot more. End of rant in reply. :-) And also the end of this whole topic, I hope. Trying to get back to music and pipechat now: Does anyone have a photocopy of Dieudonne Raick's organ music they could send me? If so, could you please email me privately. I heard this on the radio many years and think it'd be rather interesting stuff to play. Ross --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 2/07/2004
(back) Subject: Re: (no subject) From: "Roger Brown" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:10:40 +1000 On Monday 05 July 2004 7:38 pm, Swedish5702@aol.com wrote: > Our country is one of many freedoms and the entire rest of the world is > jealous of our success. With every respect, that's utter nonsense! (note that I am commenting on your views, not reflecting on you = personally). There are numerous countries round the world (and mine is one of them) = that enjoy as great or greater level of freedom and human rights than is = evident in your country - and particularly in the way your country chooses to = treat prisoners and combatants. Yours is a great country and you have a right to be proud of it - but do = try and keep your views in proper global perspective. What you said above does have one element of truth however - a good many = areas of the world are resentful not so much of your freedom but of your = prosperity and freedom from want, disease and homelessness. And they see your trade = and foreign policies as making that inequality worse. That's what you need to address - as much in your own interests as theirs. = For only by addressing those resource sharing issues will you truly address = the root causes of terrorism. Certainly it is appropriate for the church to give thanks for the = foundation of your nation. But if in the doing so, the church does not passionately = urge your nation and every nation to govern according to the dictates of = fairness and equity for ALL people on earth, then it fails in its duty. -- Roger Brown firstname.lastname@example.org http://rogerbrown.no-ip.org