PipeChat Digest #4594 - Monday, July 5, 2004
 
RE: Patriotic music in  Christian worship?  (long)
  by "Mari" <mreive@tampabay.rr.com>
RE: (no subject)
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: Flags in Church (off-topic)
  by <Icedad@aol.com>
RE: (no subject)
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: (no subject)
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: (no subject)
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Flags in Church (off-topic)
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Flags in Church (off-topic)
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: Patriotic music in  Christian worship?  (long)
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: (no subject)
  by "Roger Brown" <roger2@rogerbrown.no-ip.org>
Re: Flags in Church (off-topic)
  by "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es>
WAY OFF TOPIC Church and State (was:no subject)
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net>
Re: Patriotism shows?
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: (no subject)
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: (no subject)
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
ALL READ Church and State
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
Westminster Abbey organ
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
Craig Johnson's "Question?"
  by <Wuxuzusu@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Patriotic music in Christian worship? (long) From: "Mari" <mreive@tampabay.rr.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:02:03 -0400   Patriotic music in Christian worship? (long)I just wondered. I've always heard about Reinhold as my dad had classes with him at Union, but I hadn't heard of Richard. Thanks for the info, John. Mari -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of John L. Speller Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 10:07 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Patriotic music in Christian worship? (long)     No, Karl is right, Helmut Richard Niebuhr (1894-1962) was the one who wrote "Christ and Culture." He was the younger brother of Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971), and we are very proud of them in St. Louis, since they both once taught at Eden Theological Seminary here.   John Speller ----- Original Message ----- From: Mari To: 'PipeChat' Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 6:19 AM Subject: RE: Patriotic music in Christian worship? (long)     Do you mean Reinholt Niebuhr? Mari -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf O= f Karl Moyer Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 11:43 PM To: pipechat Subject: Patriotic music in Christian worship? (long)     Richard Niebuhr lists five relationship of Christ to the culture= .. He discusses Bonh=F6ffer's stance and, indeed, the implications of Jesus' statement quoted above in terms of "Christ and culture in paradox," something which rather closely parallels the parable of the wheat and the tares. This stance would call for churches and church people to pray for those in civil authority, for soldiers - see Luther's On Whether a Soldier, Too, Can Be Saved - yes, the soldier can be saved! -- BUT would NOT properl= y admit matters of the state into the life of the Church. For example, Luther's introduction to his marriage order states clearly that marriage is the business of the state, NOT the Church, but that "if they ask us to pray over them, we should do so" -- those are not the precise words, but they ar= e accurate to what Luther writes. (I could write a whole essay here on the implications of THIS as regards wedding music!)    
(back) Subject: RE: (no subject) From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:18:30 -0500   Also, in those two churches no national music is played as it violates church and state. I find that pour BS!     Oh, now that's going TOO far. I only had one thing that the pastor said I should never use, and that's "God Bless America". I don't remember why he said that, though. Or maybe it was a different one....I guess I better = find out! Anyway, most of the patriotic hymns that are in "Lutheran Book of Worship" are perfectly fine. (By the way, the LBW was published in 1978, not 1958.<g>) I don't think we have the Materna one in our books, but I believe that is acceptable too. And of course, "Eternal Father, Strong to Save" is always a favorite.   To keep this organ-related, I still remember back to Princess Diana's funeral, and when the service started, and they sang "God Bless the Queen" (or however the text is, with my apologies to our British friends), the organist went full organ with 16' sub couplers...wonderful! So now I play the same way on "God Bless Our Native Land".   Well for those who followed my saga yesterday, I had an email from the pastor this morning, asking me not to over-react to the incident, and that he still strongly supports me. The best part is, he said "You're a high-quality minister of music, in my estimation." This makes me feel a = lot better. I tend to take mistakes like this very personally. I'm never = happy with my own playing (although if I practiced more, maybe I WOULD be). So thank you to all who wrote offlist with encouraging words.   I hope you all had a great 4th celebration!   Jeff  
(back) Subject: Re: Flags in Church (off-topic) From: <Icedad@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:10:01 EDT   Hey All, I placed both the American Flag and the Papal Flag in the Sanctuary for = the Fourth. I will probably get a letter of reprimand from the Diocese and Vatican. LOL I also played City of God, Let There be Peace on Earth, On Eagles Wings = and America the Beautiful. The congregation at all four services were estatic =   with the music, choirs, youth orchestra, bell choir. It was tasteful, but = had a flare of patriotism woven within the readings and liturgy. Our Deacon preached and was superb! All in all a great church weekend. I really opened up the organ using the en chamade and a big fanfare on = the recessional, America. With a huge membership such as ours, and especially =   with so many veterans and the current world situation, a bit of = patriotism only helped to ease much sadness. Peace to all, Daniel  
(back) Subject: RE: (no subject) From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:22:25 -0500   Hey, Ross...do ya have Lutherans there? (HAHA)   What is the church diversity like in NZ? It sounds like a great place. I must remember that if this country ever really does go to heck in a handbasket. (Sorry, I got chastised on another list for saying the "H" word. If I offended anyone, I apologize in advance.)   A coworker got married a few months ago and honeymooned in NZ. He said it was so beautiful there. Does NZ have much interaction with AUS then?   What are the organ styles over there? Do you have a more English-oriented style?   Thanks! Jeff     >In NZ, for example, we are free of nuclear arms, nuclear ships, and > nuclear electricity generation. NZ has no enemies. NZ has no subsidies = to > its farmers, where the USA has crippling subsidies. NZ has no > import tariffs at all, yet the USA is full of them...<SNIP>    
(back) Subject: RE: (no subject) From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:30:28 -0500     > What you said above does have one element of truth however - a > good many areas > of the world are resentful not so much of your freedom but of > your prosperity > and freedom from want, disease and homelessness. And they see > your trade and > foreign policies as making that inequality worse.   Roger, this certainly makes sense. I often wonder about the validity of "protecting America's interests." Well, something is ticking off these other peoples in other lands...and it bothers me that we don't address = that. I'm not saying bow to the terrorists who keep killing our young men in an effort to make their point. But surely we could communicate to ADDRESS = what they're trying to accomplish, even if we don't agree or given in to it.   But what the rest of the world doesn't see is that there IS disease, want, and homelessness even in the US. About 2-3 times a week, at the highway exit is a guy with a sign that says "Homeless Veteran. Please help." Of course a lot of these are professional pan-handlers, but you never know = who is and who isn't. Granted, it's not the same scale as, say, Cambodia or other places in the world.   But you are right about one thing: The Church does need to be a bigger voice. I'm not saying it needs to RUN the government, but does need to influence it a little more to start doing right. I hate that so many = people out there hate us. It's scary to live in a world where groups of people would love to see me and my family lying dead in our homes. What kind of future does my sons have?   God bless America, but America better start blessing God! :)   Respectfully (to all!) Jeff    
(back) Subject: RE: (no subject) From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:31:52 -0500   Mari has a point...and London took a lot more damage than Washington did, all cozy here on this side of the ocean.   And let's not forget right now that we're not working in Iraq and Afghanistan alone either!   Pray for peace! Jeff   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Mari Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 6:23 AM To: 'PipeChat' Subject: RE: (no subject)     The American military DID NOT win WWII alone!! True, without them the result would've been different but they did not do it alone! What an = insult to the UK and the Antipodes. Mari -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Swedish5702@aol.com Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 12:50 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: (no subject)     THE AMERICAN MILITARY WON WW2 and is doing it all over again in saving the world from these Nazi terrorists. Get real...friend!  
(back) Subject: RE: Flags in Church (off-topic) From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:36:30 -0500   > Every single Methodist church, every single UCC church, every=20 > single Roman=20 > Catholic church? The Crystal Cathedral may have good points, but=20 > IMHO, there is=20 > a lot there that is merely entertainment.   Someone told me that the CC started their service yesterday with the = Star Spangled Banner. I wonder if anyone yelled "Play ball!" at the = end? That, too me, was inappropriate (for OUR worship ). I never = understood what draws people in to places like that. I know I would = hate it there. There's no way Schuller knows his congregation. Maybe a = select few. I think there's a lot of advantages to a small = congregation. Even 1,000 members is small enough for a pastor to get to = know the majority of his parishoners.   > Could that be because this was the funeral of a 'prominent' American=20 > politician, and the funeral was also somewhat of a state function?   Precisely. I don't quite understand the differences between a state = funeral and a religious one. Diana's was a state funeral too, right?   By the way, in LCMS churches, I've always seen flags in the worship = space, and always off to the sides. So it's very odd to me that we = DON'T have the two flags in there. Do I miss them in there? Nope. =20   > It seems that 2 of the churches you mentioned in South Williamsport = are=20 > already with=20 > the program, the other 4 need to re-assess the meaning of worship.   Yes!! I loved this one! :-)   Jeff      
(back) Subject: RE: Flags in Church (off-topic) From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 10:37:18 -0500   Didn't I learn this in social studies in the sixth grade?, that = there is a separation of church and state written into the constitution? this is really OFF-TOPIC...   Rick's right...and I am sorry that I kept replying on this. I was just getting caught up. :)   Jeff  
(back) Subject: Re: Patriotic music in Christian worship? (long) From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:45:50 -0400   On 7/5/04 10:06 AM, "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> wrote:   > Karl is right,=20   We really DO get USED to that, don=B9t we?! (Thanks, John; saved me the trouble of looking it up.)   Alan  
(back) Subject: Re: (no subject) From: "Roger Brown" <roger2@rogerbrown.no-ip.org> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 01:46:28 +1000   On Tuesday 06 July 2004 1:30 am, Jeff White wrote: > =A0But surely we could communicate to ADDRESS what > they're trying to accomplish, even if we don't agree or given in to it.   Well of course it's not so much addressing what the *terrorists* are trying= to=20 accomplish (which is evil) as addressing the inequalities that the terroris= ts=20 *exploit* in order to gain influence.   So you aren't in any way pandering to terrorism in taking this line, you wo= uld=20 be cutting the ground out from under these horrible people. > > But what the rest of the world doesn't see is that there IS disease, want, > and homelessness even in the US. =A0   As there is here. But none of this is on the scale of homelessness in=20 Palestinian countries, or AIDS in Africa, or famine in Africa.   =46rom where they sit, *our* problems are miniscule.   (I know you realise this already but I make the point for the benefit of=20 anyone else who reads this) > > But you are right about one thing: The Church does need to be a bigger > voice.=20   Well it's hard for me to judge accurately here. But I don't get the sense t= hat=20 the Church is standing against these things in the way it does here or in=20 Britain.   There's an Eric Routley hymn that always springs to mind when this argument= =20 comes up. We used it a lot in the days following September 11 when as well = as=20 praying for your country in its sorrow we fervently prayed that your reacti= on=20 would be tempered and just.   (I wasn't going to quote the whole hymn but each verse seems to say somethi= ng=20 relevant and worthwhile)   What does the Lord require for praise and offering? What sacrifice desire or tribute bid you bring? Do justly, Love mercy; Walk humbly with your God   Rulers of men,, give ear! Should you not justice know? Will God your pleading hear, while crime and cruelty grow?=20 Do justly, Love mercy; Walk humbly with your God   Masters of wealth and trade, all you for whom men toil, think not to win God's aid, if lies your commerce soil Do justly, Love mercy; Walk humbly with your God   Still down the ages ring the prophet's stern commands; to merchant, worker, king, he brings God's high demands; Do justly, Love mercy; Walk humbly with your God   How shall our life fulfil God's law so hard and high? Let Christ endue our will with grace to fortify. Then justly, in mercy; We'll humbly with your God   =2D-=20 Roger Brown roger2@rogerbrown.no-ip.org http://rogerbrown.no-ip.org  
(back) Subject: Re: Flags in Church (off-topic) From: "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 17:55:39 +0200   Many members of this list are located outside the United States and/or are not US citizens. Now that the original poster has successsfully insulted some of the nations represented here and given that this subject has nothing to do with organs and is irrelevant or of little interest to non-US list members, may it now be stopped or removed to some other place, please?   Peter.    
(back) Subject: WAY OFF TOPIC Church and State (was:no subject) From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 11:02:55 -0500   The following statement assumes that the "Church" is, in fact, correct. (substituting the word 'correct' for 'right', which has too many other potential meanings in this context)   This is NOT AT ALL a safe assumption.   Especially since the churches having the worst general doctrines tend to = be the ones which try to squeal the loudest.   Our forefathers wrote the US Constitution the way they did for VERY GOOD REASON. It's truly sad that those of us living in the current generations =   have so lost touch with their wisdom.   And by the way.....what does ANY of this have to do with organs....???? = :-)   Tim   At 10:30 AM 7/5/2004, Jeff wrote: >The Church does need to be a bigger >voice. I'm not saying it needs to RUN the government, but does need to >influence it a little more to start doing right.    
(back) Subject: Re: Patriotism shows? From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 12:17:04 -0400   On 7/5/04 12:36 AM, "Swedish5702@aol.com" <Swedish5702@aol.com> wrote:   > Question? >=20 > What the heck is wrong with the ELCA and their fixation on separation of > Church and State? >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 My goodness, Craig! Relax! You wanna win this one, or get blowed a= way > without even trying? >=20 > It goes back well before ELCA. I grew up in one of the smaller (Norwegia= n) > predecessor bodies to ELCA. We had chancel flags in spite of =B3advice=B2 fr= om > Synod that they were inappropriate. Early 1950s. Over the years, more a= nd > more parishes have got rid of them. I know an ELCA pastor who (having do= ne > his military time before going to seminary) served for some years as chai= rman > of the largest local draft board in the eastern U.S., during the height o= f the > Vietnam War. (He=B9ll sign this post.) You BET we drafted them! But you = can > also bet that we carefully counseled guys on how to get a total exemption= , > when we perceived that to be just and appropriate. >=20 > Same pastor also managed to remove flags from his chancel; it cost him on= e > family who were MAJOR donors. >=20 >=20 > The Methodists...Baptists...UCC...Roman Churches all proudly display the = flag. > Plus, the Crystal Cathedral has the largest indoor American Flag. >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 The Crystal Cathedral!?! Wow! Maybe I=B9d better re-think this! >=20 >=20 > Come on ELCA get with the program. >=20 > =A7=A7=A7 That is surely the MOST counter-productive appeal I have EVER heard!= We > are, by nature, COUNTER-program! That=B9s our JOB! >=20 > Craig, I want to make your acquaintance. I=B9m Swedish, ELCA, old and cran= ky. > Off list is just fine. Preview us at www.stlukesnyc.org >=20 > Alan Freed (=B2Frid=B2 [=B3peace=B2] in Sweden) >=20    
(back) Subject: RE: (no subject) From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 04:19:05 +1200   >Hey, Ross...do ya have Lutherans there? (HAHA)   It'd take a book to reply to your email. Seriously. But I'll risk being misleading by saying just a few things in return. ;-)   Lutherans here? Virtually no. There are probably only a dozen Lutheran parishes in the whole country. There is only one small one in the = Wellington area (about 50 worshippers) of about 350,000 or more people.   >What is the church diversity like in NZ? It sounds like a great place. = I must remember that if this country ever really does go to heck in a handbasket. (Sorry, I got chastised on another list for saying the "H" word. If I offended anyone, I apologize in advance.)   Great diversity, sure, but not with the same extremes as in the USA, nor with the same kind of historical biases and emphases or interactions with the non-church.   >A coworker got married a few months ago and honeymooned in NZ. He said = it was so beautiful there. Does NZ have much interaction with AUS then?   Heaps, all the time. Just a few hours ago, for example, the NZ women's netball team completed a series here against Australia. 3-0 to NZ. The two countries are the very closest of friends, and have much in common, but = also have differences, e.g. in foreign policies.   >What are the organ styles over there? Do you have a more = English-oriented style?   NZ's organ world is dying, I fear, with churches these days having little interest in, or money for, pipe organs. We are very firmly British in = organ background, with scads of instruments from there from the past 150 years. = We have about 600 (pipe) organs in NZ: of these, there have only ever been = two church organs from the USA, both smaller than 10 ranks. There is a Kimball of about 10rks and a Kilgen of ditto. Both have been altered. Both are = from the 1920s or thereabouts. We have some exceedingly fine old English instruments, including, extraordinarily, a 1691 Renatus Harris that came here in the 20thC. Organs are not big, of course, except in a few town = halls and cathedrals, as we have only a tiny population compared with the USA's.   Ross   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 2/07/2004    
(back) Subject: RE: (no subject) From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 04:22:57 +1200     >To keep this organ-related, I still remember back to Princess Diana's funeral, and when the service started, and they sang "God=A0Bless the = Queen" (or however=A0the text is,=A0with my apologies to our British friends), = the organist went full organ with 16' sub couplers...wonderful!=A0 So now = I=A0play the same=A0way on "God Bless Our Native Land".=A0=A0 =A0 Remember this: Westminster Abbey at Di's funeral was not holding an = ordinary service or an ordinary funeral. Remember, too, that the Abbey is NOT a parish church, but is a Royal Peculiar, answerable to the sovereign and = not to the Bishop of London or anyone else. It is more technically called = the Collegiate Church of St Peter at Westminster. In architecture in = Britain, it's most unusual also, being very French rather than English, and its western towers are Baroque Gothic, being neither French nor English = Gothic in style. Actually, in the building the organ is quite a disappointment.   Ross   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.714 / Virus Database: 470 - Release Date: 2/07/2004 =20    
(back) Subject: ALL READ Church and State From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 11:30:40 -0500   OK Folks - We are WAY, WAY off topic here and are getting into one of those areas that starts Flame Wars. Let's DROP this subject RIGHT NOW!   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Westminster Abbey organ From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 10:32:27 -0700   The Abbey organ, of course, has been rebuilt many times ... as I recall, it was rebuilt with new mechanism and new ranks for the Coronation in 1938, but re-using many old pipes. From the sound of it, it has been tinkered with since in an attempt to make it more baroque.   I don't recall the particulars, but when it was changed to either tubulur pneumatic action or electric action, the case was sawed in half, the facades were placed in the north and south triforium galleries, and the enlarged organ was divided behind them.   The original organ stood in the middle of the rood-loft and faced east and west -- with a facade to the crossing of the nave (Great Organ) and a facade to the Great Quire (Chair Organ), probably with two Great Diapasons (nave and quire) as at Winchester.   This may be a little difficult for US organists to visualize, as we have no rood-loft organs in this country ... if you recall, there is a solid wall between the east side of the crossing and the Great Quire in the Abbey, with an archway in the center. Above is a spacious loft across the entrance to the Great Quire, probably 2-3 bays deep from east to west. If I'm not mistaken, the CONSOLE is still there, facing at right angles to the High Altar. In modern times, the choirmaster conducts from the east end of the choir stalls, so the organ scholar can see him.   One of the problems is that the present organ speaks mostly INTO the (carpeted) rood-loft, which is used at various times for orchestra, large choirs, etc.   The rood-loft was very important in the pre-reformation Sarum Rite ... you will see many ancient English churches with little steep, narrow stairways (many closed off) which led up to it. The Gospel was sung from the rood-loft with great solemnity, accompanied by torches and incense and deacons and sub-deacons of honour (at least in large churches and cathedrals).   During the Interregnum, many of the rood-lofts and organs were torn down by the puritans, who objected to them as "papist."   The original organs placed there were small, as they performed the same function as their continental counterparts: versets in alternation with the chant. There was no congregational singing to accompany.   Along that line, the Abbey organ's main function is still to accompany choral services in the Great Quire. The Abbey is not a parish church, and has no congregation per se, though it has regular Sunday services. The same is true of most older English cathedrals. In this country, only St. John the Divine in New York City and Saints Peter and Paul in Washington DC have that arrangement ... both have parish churches for the neighborhood on the cathedral close.   Cheers,   Bud          
(back) Subject: Craig Johnson's "Question?" From: <Wuxuzusu@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:19:32 EDT   The beauty of this nation's constitution is that it allows the ELCA and = the Amish, and others to worship as they see fit, play whatever music they = deem appropriate in their worship services and even to be "consciencious = objectors."   I accept these religious groups choices in worshiping however they desire, =   because I believe they would likewise accept me worshiping and playing = whatever music I feel appropriate in my place of worship.   I enjoy hearing the Battle Hymn of the Republic played in church services because it reminds me of our forefathers' struggle for independence. I am = tiring of the overuse of "Amazing Grace" however. IMHO :-)   Musically, Stan Krider   In a message dated 07/05/2004 5:01:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Swedish5702@aol.com writes:   <snip> Question?   What the heck is wrong with the ELCA and their fixation on separation of Church and State?   Don't they realize if it wasn't for the U.S. Military, America would be either slaves or dead if we hadn't won WW2?   My local ELCA in South Williamsport refuses to put the American flag and = the church flag in the sanctuary.   The Methodists...Baptists...UCC...Roman Churches all proudly display the flag. Plus, the Crystal Cathedral has the largest indoor American Flag.   President Ronnie's funeral in the National Cathedral was all pomp and reverence and proudly displayed was the two flags mentioned above.   Come on ELCA get with the program.