PipeChat Digest #4595 - Monday, July 5, 2004
 
Re: PipeChat Digest #4593 - 07/05/04
  by "Larry Wheelock" <llwheels@mac.com>
RE: ALL READ Church and State
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Westminster Abbey organ
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Craig Johnson's "Question?"
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: (no subject)
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
Re: Westminster Abbey organ
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
list messages
  by "Merry Foxworth" <m.foxworth@verizon.net>
Pastors knowing their congregation--off topic
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
list messages
  by "Merry Foxworth" <m.foxworth@verizon.net>
Re: list messages
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
IRC Reminder
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
RE: Pastors knowing their congregation--off topic
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Adding a Second Service
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Patriotic music in  Christian worship?
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
the church as restaurant
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Amazing Grace
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
 

(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4593 - 07/05/04 From: "Larry Wheelock" <llwheels@mac.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:36:34 -0500   This is a joke, right? You're just trying to pull our collective leg. Shame on you! It isn't even April 1 Larry Wheelock Director of Music Ministries Kenwood United Methodist Church Milwaukee, Wisconsin musicdirector@kenwood-umc.org. On Jul 5, 2004, at 10:02 AM, Robert Lind wrote:       > "we really > prefer the Baroque, Early American stuff, the great hymns of the > church,.....   > It's an Estey, 1926, 11-rank plus chimes. Fully duplexed (all ranks > can be > drawn from either manual). The Crescendo pedal works, NOT the Swell, as > there are NO swell shades (we made the conscious decision to DISPLAY > the > organ workings to the audience). Stops are: > > MANUAL > Muted Viol 8' > Viol d'Orchestre 8' > Viol Celeste 8' > Melodia 8' > Flauto Traverso 4' > Gross Flute 8' > Open Diapason 8' > Saxophone 8' > Vox Humana 8' > Chimes > > PEDAL > Bass Viol 16' > Bourdon 16' > > <end quote> > > I'd greatly appreciate suggestions on what might work convincingly on > this > type of instrument. TIA, > Robert Lind >  
(back) Subject: RE: ALL READ Church and State From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:57:21 -0500   I thought we did :)   Jeff   > OK Folks - We are WAY, WAY off topic here and are getting into one of > those areas that starts Flame Wars. Let's DROP this subject RIGHT > NOW!    
(back) Subject: RE: Westminster Abbey organ From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:01:56 -0500   > This may be a little difficult for US organists to visualize, as we have > no rood-loft organs in this country ... if you recall, there is a solid > wall between the east side of the crossing and the Great Quire in the > Abbey, with an archway in the center. Above is a spacious loft across > the entrance to the Great Quire, probably 2-3 bays deep from east to > west. If I'm not mistaken, the CONSOLE is still there, facing at right > angles to the High Altar. In modern times, the choirmaster conducts from > the east end of the choir stalls, so the organ scholar can see him.   As an American, you're right...this is a difficult concept to grasp why you'd cut off the main assembly from the Altar in front by this big wall. = I wonder, too, how difficult it is to maintain a beat when you have such a reverberant room, and the choirmaster so far from the organist, and vice versa. I think the closest we come in the US is having a split choir up = in front. I just came from a Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) where I visited my organbuilder friend, and that's how theirs is set up, with mirrors on the opposite wall from the console so the choir on that side = can see the organist.   You're right about the console placement in the Abbey, Bud. I noticed in the pictures, also, that there is a small television screen on the = console. Perhaps this is to help with the conducting?   Jeff    
(back) Subject: RE: Craig Johnson's "Question?" From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 14:03:31 -0500   > I enjoy hearing the Battle Hymn of the Republic played in church = services > because it reminds me of our forefathers' struggle for > independence. I am tiring > of the overuse of "Amazing Grace" however. IMHO :-)   Stan, you are so right. And the people who play it drawn out and dead. I try to be a little more upbeat with that particular hymn, just to keep it from getting boring. Of course, you have your oldsters who like to sing "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". :)   Jeff    
(back) Subject: Re: (no subject) From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 13:59:52 -0500   Three things to say:   1. Obviously, you didn't do well in History class. Allied Armies (a = REAL coalition!) won WWII, not the US. 2. I thought we invaded Iraq because of the eminent threat of WMD = ..... oh no, Saddam -Al Qaeda link ... Oops, I mean freeing the people = from tyranny... or was it ... Point is: keep your political Talking Points to yourself. 3. Your post, being of a political nature is COMPLETELY off-topic. = Most of us DO NOT want to hear it.   I know that REALITY sucks, but deal with it.... friend!   Tim ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Swedish5702@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2004 11:50 PM Subject: Re: (no subject)     THE AMERICAN MILITARY WON WW2 and is doing it all over again in saving = the world from these Nazi terrorists. Get real...friend!
(back) Subject: Re: Westminster Abbey organ From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 12:32:42 -0700       Jeff White wrote:   > > > As an American, you're right...this is a difficult concept to grasp why > you'd cut off the main assembly from the Altar in front by this big = wall.   A couple of things: pre-reformation, Westminster Abbey was a functioning Benedictine Abbey ... the Great Quire was the monastic church. There was a "Jesus Altar" placed in the Crossing WEST of the rood-loft and wall, for celebrations of the Mass on those days when Mass was offered "pro populo" (for the people) ... Sundays and major feasts.   It was also practical ... those places were COLD ... there used to be a tapestry hung in the arch to cut down on drafts. The same was true at Notre Dame in Paris, and I'm sure in other places as well.   It's also hard to realize that the Great Quires of MANY of the English cathedrals and churches are BIG enough to hold the ENTIRE congregation on an ordinary Sunday. In fact, the first Prayer Book (1549) directs that those who are remaining for Holy Communion after Morning Prayer and the Litany on Sunday go up into the quire ... men on one side, women on the other (!) ... the separation of men and women on opposite sides of the church lasted until the 1950s in a few places in England.   Typically, for a week-day Evensong, EVERYBODY sits in the Quire. The Dean of St. Paul's in London tried to chase the congregation out into the nave, and met with a WALL of resistance (chuckle).   It's also important to remember that we're looking at these building filtered through the prism of Vatican II and the Liturgical Movement. Congregational participation was no more expected AFTER 1549 than it was BEFORE. The first Prayer Book specifically gives all the singing to the "clerkes" (except for the Sanctus). Hymns were virtually unknown until Hymns Ancient & Modern came out in 1861.   Prior to the reformation, choir boys and men had to receive Tonsure (the first of the Minor Holy Orders) so that they could enter the Quire ... only those in Holy Orders could, as it was regarded as part of the Sanctuary ... it still is in monastic churches. After the reformation, women were allowed into the Quire, but they still weren't allowed to sing (chuckle).   Nor was frequent communion the rule. Both before and after the reformation, a communicant typically received TWICE in a LIFETIME: his/her first Communion, and on his/her deathbed. THAT'S why the celebration of Mass on Sunday died out among Anglicans ... the Prayer Book (rightly) forbade Masses in which no one but the priest received. If there were no communicants present, the priest was directed to end the service after the Creed, which is where Anglicans got Ante-Communion and the Lutherans got the "Halb-Messe", for more or less the same reasons. The difference was that Morning Prayer was already established as a Sunday service for Anglicans, so they chose to do that, rather than Ante-Communion (except on Good Friday). I > wonder, too, how difficult it is to maintain a beat when you have such a > reverberant room, and the choirmaster so far from the organist, and vice > versa.   It's genetic (grin).   The practice of having an organ scholar play and the Organist direct is fairly recent (1950s-1960s), and indeed was forbidden by statute in many places, and by custom in others. The Organist was not allowed to be seen conducting, at least not by the congregation.   I grew up with the same rule: at St. Paul's in Winter Haven, when the choir sang unaccompanied, I sat in a chair to the east of the organ console (out of sight of the congregation) and conducted from there. My side of the choir had a big mirror across the way so they could see me.   One old church in Texas where I played had a dear little dusty red velvet "modesty curtain" which concealed organist and console from the congregation (chuckle) ... the console was in the east end of the Epistle side of the choir stalls.   In a lot of places, even in the US, the console was recessed above and/or behind the stalls (St. John the Divine, NYC, St. Thomas, NYC, St. Mark's, Philadelphia) and ALL communication was by mirrors.   I think the closest we come in the US is having a split choir up in > front. I just came from a Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) where = I > visited my organbuilder friend, and that's how theirs is set up, with > mirrors on the opposite wall from the console so the choir on that side = can > see the organist. > > You're right about the console placement in the Abbey, Bud. I noticed = in > the pictures, also, that there is a small television screen on the = console. > Perhaps this is to help with the conducting? > > Jeff >   Possibly ... I think the organist can see the conductor directly. It's probably to be able to see the west doors, etc. to know when to begin things.   BTW, I think divided chancels are a nuisance. They're a holdover from pre-reformation times, when the Psalter at Divine Office was sung antiphonally from side to side.   They make sense in cathedrals where the Office is still sung ... those choirs typically have the second sopranos, altos, tenors, and basses on one side, and the firsts on the other, and many English anthems are written for that disposition ... you will often see "Verse" (usually the Decani side) and "Full" or "Can(toris)", the Gospel side and "Dec(ani), the Epistle side, being the Cantors' side and the Dean's side = respectively.   It's OK for the choir to be singing into each other in a reverberant space where the congregation is seated in the stalls WITH them, as in English churches; it's less successful in a typical dry American church where the congregation sits in the nave.   Personally, I'd MUCH rather be in the west gallery with the choir gathered around the console ... it's easier to communicate, and there's room for instruments, something that's VERY difficult with a divided chancel choir. It's also the best place acoustically for organ and choir. Most of my posts have had west-end choirs, which allowed singers' families to sit with them as well.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: list messages From: "Merry Foxworth" <m.foxworth@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:21:27 -0400   List Owner and fellow listers: I wish the messages we get from PipeChat said [pipechat] at the beginning, as most other lists do, for three reasons: One can see at a glance which ones are from PipeChat and not delete some = by mistake One can sort the messages by subject and read a thread all together, and One can sort the messages by subject and delete messages in a thread of no particular interest all together. Is there any way to make this happen??? Merry   =B4=A8=A8)) -:=A6:- =B8.=B7=B4 .=B7=B4=A8=A8)) ((=B8=B8.=B7=B4 ..=B7=B4 -:=A6:-   An excerpt from Robert Giddings "Musical Quotes and Anecdotes", published in Longman Pocket Companions: "There let the pealing organ blow, To the full-voiced choir below, In service high, and anthems clear, As may with sweetness, through mine ear, Dissolve me into ecstasies, And bring all Heav'n before mine eyes". John Milton - Il Penseroso (1632).   Merry Foxworth Open Door Realty Boston, MA 02131 617 469-4888 x207 877 865-1703 toll free http://www.opendoorrlty.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 11:55 AM Subject: Re: Flags in Church (off-topic)     > Many members of this list are located outside the > United States and/or are not US citizens. Now that > the original poster has successsfully insulted > some of the nations represented here and given > that this subject has nothing to do with organs > and is irrelevant or of little interest to non-US > list members, may it now be stopped or removed to > some other place, please? > > Peter. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: Pastors knowing their congregation--off topic From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:22:42 EDT   Jeff White wrote: >I never understood what draws people in to places like that. I know I would hate it there. >There's no way Schuller knows his congregation. = Maybe a select few. I think there's a lot >of advantages to a small = congregation. Even 1,000 members is small enough for a pastor >to get to know the = majority of his parishoners. Well, as someone who has been a member of and organist of Protestant churches with memberships of over 4,000+, I think I am adequately capable = of speaking on this topic. Catholic churches with large memberships are a = whole different animal. Our growth rate the last several years has been pretty = steady at 10%, but this year, it's surpassed that so far--last week alone, in one service, we had almost 60 new members come forward to join. I'm not = saying this to brag, I'm just giving information about the kind of growth that we = arre experiencing. Monthly, we average 40-50 new members--by confession of = faith, baptism or transfer. We require the new members to go to a new members = class so they can meet other new members so they don't feel like they have = joined and are left out in the cold. We also encourage all of our congregation to be a part of one of our ministries--there are many tings to be a part of--from one of the choirs = ot being a greeter or usher, to being a Sunday School teacher, to helping in the Nursery, etc., etc..... There are literally hundreds of places for a = church member to become active. At my church, each of these ministries is under the guidance of minister, not the Senior Pastor, of course, but one of the = Associates. You are also assigned a Deacon when you join who you can turn to when you =   need something--be it spiritual assistance or even something as serious as = financial aid if you have lost your job and need help with some impending = bills. Your personal Deacon acts as the liason with the ministerial staff. The Associate Ministers are very active in getting to know the members, doing =   visitation and that kind of stuff. They are also very good about getting = out in the congregation. The Senior Pastor is also good about getting to know individuals, but yes, it is hard for the senior pastor of a 5,000 member = church to know everyone. That is why the Deacons and Associate Ministers have such =   active roles in the church. Each week, there are 3-4 deacons on call. = Part of their duties the week they are "on call" are to volunteer 4 hours a day = every day that week to be on premises at the church to assist with things--they =   sometimes may be seen acting as receptionist/greeter, they will be seen = working with the children in our day care, they will be involved with other activities, they will go on a day trip with the senior citizens, etc. = They have a vital role. But, being that the root word of "Deacon" means "to serve", = they have to live up to their role. Our Senior Pastor takes an active role, = too, as much as he can, but this year he is writing a book, so the Deacon Board = has granted him time for study, so between his study time and working with = the architects and contractors for the new building, he isn't around as much = as normal. On Sundays, however, he can be seen in the hallways, talking = with people, playing with the kids, visiting with older people, taking an = active interest in the congregation. The remarkable thing about my current = church is how much people relate to the pastor and think that he is just a regular guy. = He truly is just an average man, very humble, and even from the pulpit talks =   about his humble upbringing. He makes no pretense of being above the people--he doesn't talk with fancy language, he doesn't drive a fancy = car, he doesn't wear flashy clothes. People are drawn to our church because of his down = to earth preaching, his charismatic personality, and the music. Once in the =   church, the friendliness of the congregation and the variety of ministries = we offer for the family keep people. We have a man in the choir who drives = over an hour and a half each way just to sing with us. There are people in = the congregation who live an hour away who come just for the services. Large =   churches offer a lot of things that smaller churches can't because of = facilities and finances. It doesn't make them better, it just makes them different. = We suggest that everyone becomes involved with a ministry so they get to = know people--a small group that can become your church community within the = church. To each their own...there's no right or wrong, it's whatever your = preference is. Monty Bennett Friendship Baptist Church Charlotte, NC  
(back) Subject: list messages From: "Merry Foxworth" <m.foxworth@verizon.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 17:26:57 -0400   [pipechat] at the beginning...   I should have said at the beginning OF THE SUBJECT LINE!         =B4=A8=A8)) -:=A6:- =B8.=B7=B4 .=B7=B4=A8=A8)) ((=B8=B8.=B7=B4 ..=B7=B4 -:=A6:-=20   An excerpt from Robert Giddings "Musical Quotes and Anecdotes", published in Longman Pocket Companions:=20 "There let the pealing organ blow,=20 To the full-voiced choir below,=20 In service high, and anthems clear,=20 As may with sweetness, through mine ear,=20 Dissolve me into ecstasies,=20 And bring all Heav'n before mine eyes".=20 John Milton - Il Penseroso (1632).=20   Merry Foxworth Open Door Realty=20 Boston, MA 02131 =20 617 469-4888 x207 877 865-1703 toll free http://www.opendoorrlty.com/  
(back) Subject: Re: list messages From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:37:33 -0500   This is OFF-TOPIC for the list - "Suggestions" like this should be sent to the Administrators NOT the list. I do not want to see any discussion about this on the list.   I have answered Merry Privately -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: IRC Reminder From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 16:46:23 -0500   Just a quick reminder that the PipeChat IRC Chat group will meet tonight as usual beginning at 9:00 PM EASTERN time.   For directions on how to get to the IRC server please go to http://www.pipechat.org/irc.html   David  
(back) Subject: RE: Pastors knowing their congregation--off topic From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:50:52 -0500   Monty,   I hope that I didn't intimate that large congregations are bad, and I'm = very happy to hear of the growth you're experiencing! I imagine that the Catholic churches out there have had a rough way to go for awhile with all this scandal in the press. It sounds like that tide is ebbing, and that's wonderful to hear!   I came from a large congregation of over 2,000 members. When I began assisting the organist by playing once in a while, people got to know me, but I never was sure who they were. Yea, though I walk through the = narthex of a small congregation, there are still times people say hi to me and I'm not quite sure what their names are. But, anyway, it was always a = curiosity to have someone say "Hi, Jeff!" to me, and I'd say "hi" back.   I think it's all in the preference, as you said. Now, granted, I'd love Holy Trinity to be 1,000-strong again, and we're slowly starting to grow. In the fall, we're also adding a second service which will be Contemporary (a GOOD move, which I'll explain in a separate post.) Pastor said it's = been proven that the more services you offer, the more you will grow. Makes sense, when you think about it. More choices. You wouldn't go to a restaurant with only three things on the menu very often...   :)   Jeff     > Well, as someone who has been a member of and organist of Protestant > churches with memberships of over 4,000+, I think I am adequately > capable of > speaking on this topic. <SNIP>   > To each their own...there's no right or wrong, it's whatever your > preference is.    
(back) Subject: Adding a Second Service From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:55:56 -0500   All,   I didn't want to put this in my reply to Monty's posting, and I said I'd post an explanation about adding a second service, which will be Contemporary. I know that this may not be popular, but this is a good = move for us BECAUSE:   1 - It satisfies the needs of those who say they WANT that each week. 2 - It eliminates the "Which Sunday do we do the Praise Service in this month." question. (Usually it's the 2nd Sunday, but if the team leader = (and keyboardist) is out, then he requests it to be moved, which brings us = to...) 3 - I won't have my choir schedule disrupted because we have to change the Sunday we do the CCM service in. 4 - It eliminates the complaints that we don't have enough praise = services. 5 - It eliminates the complaints from those who don't LIKE the praise services, but come because that's the only thing offered that Sunday.   And one big bonus for me is that I'm on the organ bench one more Sunday a month!   I'm very supportive of this because of the above reasons. Yes, the organ will sit silently towering over those who attend the CCM service, but I no longer care if those who attend hear it or not. Plus, studies show that people may start out going to the CCM service, but generally gravitate toward the traditional. Plus, this will increase our membership, which hopefully means it'll increase the giving, which means we'll be able to afford the facilities.   Pray for us...this is a time of transition in our church, and I hope it's = a peaceful one! :)   Jeff    
(back) Subject: RE: Patriotic music in Christian worship? From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 18:34:59 -0500   Only three things can I say to Karl:   1. It's "adamant".   2. Excuse me, but the Calvinists I know bear little resemblance to Karl's Calvinists. Other fundamentalist groups, yes; Calvinists, no. The prevailing fundamentalist profile nowadays is definitely Arminian, not Calvinist. Presbyterians aren't even Calvinist these days.   3. I did not realize that singing "God of our fathers," automatically made me a fundamentalist flag-waver. I personally saw no reference in the text that was offensive or particularly "state" oriented, other than that to "free land" and to war. And I thought it went very well on the organ.   Oh no, I am turning into a Republican - this can't be happening. Someone please shoot me! Does my skin change colors? Do I throw out my wardrobe and wear power ties? Is there an antidote?   To David - I'm sorry, and cease and desist. I just tried to inject some levity into a tense subject spiraling out of control.   Don't get me started on angels!   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com (who doesn't know how to fold a flag, and would probably iron it and hang it up instead - if you wash it, those red stripes will run)      
(back) Subject: the church as restaurant From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:19:23 -0400   on 7/5/04 7:50 PM, Jeff White at reedstop@charter.net wrote:   > In the fall, we're also adding a second service which will be = Contemporary > (a GOOD move, which I'll explain in a separate post.) Pastor said it's = been > proven that the more services you offer, the more you will grow. Makes > sense, when you think about it. More choices. You wouldn't go to a > restaurant with only three things on the menu very often...     I wonder, what would Jesus say? New modern translation of Matt. 21.13: = "It is written, My house shall be called a house of prayer; but you have made = it into a restaurant"...? ;-)   Gee, if the church were just another product, service, or institution to market, that would make things a lot easier, now wouldn't it? Go read = Marva Dawn and Daniel Frankforter.   Kind of reminds me as well what happened at the end of Genesis 25.   Another thought: Why do we let them get away with calling what they do "praise services," as if there were no praise in what the rest of us do? Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength.... 1984 happened twenty years = ago already. We can't let the language get corrupted!   By the way, I'm all for good music, whether they call it CCM or not. I write in that genre myself, and it's a lot of fun.   Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: Amazing Grace From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 20:28:15 -0400   The funny thing, when I looked into it, it turns out that John Newton did _not_ give up the slave-running business after he wrote the hymn, despite some people's understanding that he did. He thought it was perfectly OK, and Christian, for him to bemoan his personal unchastity (or whatever personal sin he was thinking of in calling himself a wretch) in the hymn, then think himself saved and go on and continue to trade in human flesh. Makes me sick to sing the hymn, as it is an apology for a perversion of Christianity.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu             on 7/5/04 3:03 PM, Jeff White at reedstop@charter.net wrote:   I am tiring >> of the overuse of "Amazing Grace" however. IMHO :-) > > Stan, you are so right. And the people who play it drawn out and dead. = I > try to be a little more upbeat with that particular hymn, just to keep = it > from getting boring. Of course, you have your oldsters who like to sing > "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like > MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". :) > > Jeff >