PipeChat Digest #4596 - Monday, July 5, 2004
 
Re: Amazing Grace
  by "cc" <belcanto@brainerd.net>
Re: the church as restaurant
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Re: Adding a Second Service
  by "Andrew Barss" <asbarss@eastlink.ca>
RE: the church as restaurant
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: the church as restaurant
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Adding a Second Service
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: Amazing Grace
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
RE: Amazing Grace
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: the church as restaurant
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
RE: Patriotic music in  Christian worship?
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
RE: the church as restaurant
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: (no subject)
  by "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Re: (no subject)
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: Amazing Grace
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
RE: Amazing Grace
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Orthodox Presbyterian Church
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: "cc" <belcanto@brainerd.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 19:34:14 -0500   In the stories I have read, it said that he didn't give up slave-running right away, but that he eventually did. Is this an error?   Carla C     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>     > The funny thing, when I looked into it, it turns out that John Newton = did > _not_ give up the slave-running business after he wrote the hymn, = despite > some people's understanding that he did. He thought it was perfectly = OK, > and Christian, for him to bemoan his personal unchastity (or whatever > personal sin he was thinking of in calling himself a wretch) in the = hymn, > then think himself saved and go on and continue to trade in human flesh. > Makes me sick to sing the hymn, as it is an apology for a perversion of > Christianity. > > > Randy Runyon > Music Director > Zion Lutheran Church > Hamilton, Ohio > runyonr@muohio.edu > > > > > > > on 7/5/04 3:03 PM, Jeff White at reedstop@charter.net wrote: > > I am tiring > >> of the overuse of "Amazing Grace" however. IMHO :-) > > > > Stan, you are so right. And the people who play it drawn out and = dead. I > > try to be a little more upbeat with that particular hymn, just to keep it > > from getting boring. Of course, you have your oldsters who like to = sing > > "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like > > MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". :) > > > > Jeff > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >      
(back) Subject: Re: the church as restaurant From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 08:47:34 +0800   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: Adding a Second Service From: "Andrew Barss" <asbarss@eastlink.ca> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:56:00 -0300   Jeff,   The only caveat I would throw in is based on my own experience in my own church. In our case, the minister is a major proponent of the contemporary worship style. As a result, and since the contemporary service precedes the "traditional" one (9:00am contemporary; 11:00am traditional), there has been a lot of spill-over in terms of worship style and energy into the traditional service. The result is that we have had a noticeable drop in attendance at the so-called traditional worship and the contemporary has pretty much stabilized.   The other factor is to be prepared that you will have two distinct congregations. We were warned of this by another church that had gone the route before we began (I had predicted it at the time as well) and, sure enough, it has happened. It gets really nuts when they try to run a combined service (e.g., anniversary sunday). On those occasions nobody is happy!   Cheers, Andrew Barss Halifax, Nova Scotia   On Monday, July 5, 2004, at 08:55 PM, Jeff White wrote:   > All, > > I didn't want to put this in my reply to Monty's posting, and I said > I'd > post an explanation about adding a second service, which will be > Contemporary. I know that this may not be popular, but this is a good > move > for us BECAUSE: > > 1 - It satisfies the needs of those who say they WANT that each week. > 2 - It eliminates the "Which Sunday do we do the Praise Service in this > month." question. (Usually it's the 2nd Sunday, but if the team > leader (and > keyboardist) is out, then he requests it to be moved, which brings us > to...) > 3 - I won't have my choir schedule disrupted because we have to change > the > Sunday we do the CCM service in. > 4 - It eliminates the complaints that we don't have enough praise > services. > 5 - It eliminates the complaints from those who don't LIKE the praise > services, but come because that's the only thing offered that Sunday. > > And one big bonus for me is that I'm on the organ bench one more > Sunday a > month! > > I'm very supportive of this because of the above reasons. Yes, the > organ > will sit silently towering over those who attend the CCM service, but > I no > longer care if those who attend hear it or not. Plus, studies show > that > people may start out going to the CCM service, but generally gravitate > toward the traditional. Plus, this will increase our membership, which > hopefully means it'll increase the giving, which means we'll be able to > afford the facilities. > > Pray for us...this is a time of transition in our church, and I hope > it's a > peaceful one! :) > > Jeff > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >    
(back) Subject: RE: the church as restaurant From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:12:30 -0500   > Another thought: Why do we let them get away with calling what they do > "praise services," as if there were no praise in what the rest of us do? > Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength.... 1984 happened > twenty years ago > already. We can't let the language get corrupted!   Randy, granted that the word "Praise Service" to define the contemporary worship style is a bit of a misnomer, and there isn't one person on the Praise Team that won't readily agree that the traditional service is a Praise service also. I think the term is coined to mean Contemporary because the "C" word has such a stigma with it. I would love to have a better suggestion. I've seen "informal worship", but that sort of demeans the service. Wouldn't you agree? High and Low church also gives it a = sense of less importance to the lay folk, despite the true definition of those terms in context to worship.   Perhaps "Freedom Service", but that sort of implies it's a patriotic = service (or could be misconstrued as such.)   As to the restaurant analogy...that was off the cuff and certainly not intended to demean the 'product' as you say. The point I was making is = that it is a matter of making choices available. The only real obstacle we = face is what time to hold the services.   :)   Jeff    
(back) Subject: RE: the church as restaurant From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:14:44 -0500   Jan, I'm not sure what you're saying here. We're not offering food = without substance. Our Contemporary service is just as meaty as the rest. We're seeing to that. We have a VERY liturgically-oriented pastor who has final say in all the new services. I'm not at all worried, even if they do = scale back somewhat. Then again, I prefer to play for, and attend, the traditional service. To me, there's a certainly holiness that I don't personally feel at a contemporary service.   Regards, Jeff And all those kids running into the church of McDonald's only hoping to get a "number one, super-sized." What's the happy meal gift this week? Let's feed them all the same stuff over and over again, but not give = them any food with substance.  
(back) Subject: RE: Adding a Second Service From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:22:19 -0500   Andrew...   Believe me, the points you make have been discussed and considered. In fact, the "two congregation" thing really was debated for a good amount of time in the church council meeting. However, would you agree that if you have more than one service, you end up with two congregations? You have your early church crowd, and your late church crowd. The question is, how do you prevent it from happening? Do we stick to just one service for the sake of keeping everyone in the same room? What happens when we outgrow = the sanctuary (not that we're even close yet.)? That was also a concern of = mine that we'll have a "Ours" and a "theirs" service, but truthfully, I don't = see that happening, at least not too soon. I expect the Contemp. service to = be a small crowd of less than 25 per week. There are too many who prefer the traditional. The question is: does your pastor put the same amount of energy and enthusiasm into leading traditional worship? I'm sure the organist puts his/her heart into it. A traditional service does not have = to be hum-drum, nor boring, nor solemn, and I think in a lot of churches (not necessarily yours), this is the case. I would say in both cases, though: it needs to be done WELL. :)   By the way, we'll at times sing praise songs in the traditional service, but it'll be sort of like dessert...only once in awhile. (Oh dear, there's = a food analogy again! HAHA) The main thing is that I think we've sort of stagnated, and we have to try something to grow our particular = congregation. Maybe it'll fail...or maybe not. If it goes full CCM all the time, I suspect it's a sign it's time for me to move to a new position that needs = an organist. I also expect the Pastor wouldn't stay around long either. He fully supports it, but isn't the type to go all CCM and lose the organ.   Thanks for the feedback, though! It's good to hear from churches that = made this move, and see what kind of results they're getting!   Jeff     > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Andrew Barss > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 7:56 PM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Re: Adding a Second Service > > > Jeff, > > The only caveat I would throw in is based on my own experience in my > own church. In our case, the minister is a major proponent of the > contemporary worship style. As a result, and since the contemporary > service precedes the "traditional" one (9:00am contemporary; 11:00am > traditional), there has been a lot of spill-over in terms of worship > style and energy into the traditional service.    
(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:14:49 -0400   on 7/5/04 8:34 PM, cc at belcanto@brainerd.net wrote:   > In the stories I have read, it said that he didn't give up slave-running > right away, but that he eventually did. Is this an error? > > Carla C > >   I think you are right. There are some biographical sketches at http://www.wholesomewords.org/biography/biorpnewton.html but the most detailed can be found at http://www.cix.co.uk/~nickmel/newtfacts.htm , which makes very clear that he continued to transport slaves after 1748.   As best I can figure out, Newton (born in 1725), had a conversion = experience on May 10, 1748, though continued to trade in slaves until about 1754, at which he gave up sailing for health reasons, not moral ones. It is not known when he wrote the words to Amazing Grace, but it appears most likely to have been sometime between 1760 and 1770. And it is true that in later years he was a witness against the slave trade. I do not know when he turned against the slave trade; he may have done so before he wrote the hymn. Nevertheless, his conversion in 1748--which I take the hymn to = refer to--did _not_ lead him to stop trading in slaves.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: RE: Amazing Grace From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:27:13 -0500   Wow...this is a news flash for me! I'd never heard this story!   Well, let me share something with you. When the new sanctuary was being built, there was a member of the congregation who donated the funds for = the free-standing (and moveable) altar. What most people knew is that the = donor ran a porn shop (of some kind). Naturally, I would expect that it was blessed during the dedication service. Does it make it less meaningful an item in the sanctuary because of where it came from? I don't think so. = It belongs to the church now.   I would apply the same to the text of the hymn. It doesn't matter what = Mr. Newton did in his life. Despite the business he chose, the text of that hymn is a beautiful description of the power of saving grace in our lives. Would you want to bet that a lot of the hymn-writers were less than = perfect? :)   I am not trying to be argumentative or get your dander up, Randy. Just = some food for thought. Feel free to consume or toss at will. :) If I helped alleviate your nausea for that hymn, then at least I've been a help. :)   Respectfully, Jeff     > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Randolph Runyon > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 7:28 PM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Amazing Grace > > > The funny thing, when I looked into it, it turns out that John Newton = did > _not_ give up the slave-running business after he wrote the hymn, = despite > some people's understanding that he did. He thought it was perfectly = OK, > and Christian, for him to bemoan his personal unchastity (or whatever > personal sin he was thinking of in calling himself a wretch) in the = hymn, > then think himself saved and go on and continue to trade in human flesh. > Makes me sick to sing the hymn, as it is an apology for a perversion of > Christianity. > > > Randy Runyon > Music Director > Zion Lutheran Church > Hamilton, Ohio > runyonr@muohio.edu > > > > > > > on 7/5/04 3:03 PM, Jeff White at reedstop@charter.net wrote: > > I am tiring > >> of the overuse of "Amazing Grace" however. IMHO :-) > > > > Stan, you are so right. And the people who play it drawn out > and dead. I > > try to be a little more upbeat with that particular hymn, just > to keep it > > from getting boring. Of course, you have your oldsters who like to = sing > > "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like > > MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". :) > > > > Jeff > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >    
(back) Subject: Re: the church as restaurant From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:23:39 -0400   Jeff, I certainly agree that it's hard to put a name on it, and I'm glad = to hear that your "praise" folks acknowledge that there's praise in a traditional service. Funny thing for people like me who live in the Cincinnati area is that CCM always means just one thing: the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music!   From what you say about stigma, I think I'm missing something. Are you saying there's a strong difference between Praise and CCM? Maybe I need = to get out more....   Anyone out there old enough to remember Arlo Guthrie's song (and movie) "Alice's Restaurant"? "You can get any thing you want, in Alice's Restaurant....", the words went. And as I recall from the film, the restaurant was in an abandoned church!     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu       'on 7/5/04 9:12 PM, Jeff White at reedstop@charter.net wrote:   >> Another thought: Why do we let them get away with calling what they do >> "praise services," as if there were no praise in what the rest of us = do? >> Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength.... 1984 happened >> twenty years ago >> already. We can't let the language get corrupted! > > Randy, granted that the word "Praise Service" to define the contemporary > worship style is a bit of a misnomer, and there isn't one person on the > Praise Team that won't readily agree that the traditional service is a > Praise service also. I think the term is coined to mean Contemporary > because the "C" word has such a stigma with it. I would love to have a > better suggestion. I've seen "informal worship", but that sort of = demeans > the service. Wouldn't you agree? High and Low church also gives it a = sense > of less importance to the lay folk, despite the true definition of those > terms in context to worship. > > Perhaps "Freedom Service", but that sort of implies it's a patriotic = service > (or could be misconstrued as such.) > > As to the restaurant analogy...that was off the cuff and certainly not > intended to demean the 'product' as you say. The point I was making is = that > it is a matter of making choices available. The only real obstacle we = face > is what time to hold the services. > > :) > > Jeff > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >    
(back) Subject: RE: Patriotic music in Christian worship? From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:25:05 +0800   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: RE: the church as restaurant From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:36:56 -0500   > From what you say about stigma, I think I'm missing something. Are you > saying there's a strong difference between Praise and CCM? Maybe > I need to > get out more....   Well, I might be all wet on this one, Randy. The name "Praise Service" = was established before I started here in 2001. For some reason, the word "Contemporary" puts people off, and honestly, when you think about it...there's nothing UN-Contemporary about our traditional services. :)   I can talk to Pastor and see what the thought was behind this. I honestly can't remember what it was. Just the "C" word seems to invoke some = negative feelings for some reason. And no, there's no difference...just semantics.   Jeff    
(back) Subject: Re: (no subject) From: "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:33:23 -0400   Dear Craig,   If you wish, I would write to you privately about all this.   Interesting that you are a =B3South Side=B2 church guy. I was full-time organist/director there 1972 =AD 74 before going to the music faculty at Millersville, knew Fred Snell at St. Mark=B9s well, and clearly recall Virgil Fox=B9s recital at St. Mark=B9s in 1972 on the M=F6ller. You should know Sam and Carol Hessert, to whose first boy Billy my wife and I were ceremonial God-parents. Perhaps you know Bert and Ann McCracken, with whom we continu= e to exchange Christmas greetings.   Cordially,   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA   On 7/5/04 12:36 AM, "Swedish5702@aol.com" <Swedish5702@aol.com> wrote:   > Question? >=20 > What the heck is wrong with the ELCA and their fixation on separation of > Church and State? >=20 > Don't they realize if it wasn't for the U.S. Military, America would be > either slaves or dead if we hadn't won WW2? >=20 > My local ELCA in South Williamsport refuses to put the American flag and= the > church flag in the sanctuary. >=20 > The Methodists...Baptists...UCC...Roman Churches all proudly display the > flag. Plus, the Crystal Cathedral has the largest indoor American Flag. >=20 > President Ronnie's funeral in the National Cathedral was all pomp and > reverence and proudly displayed was the two flags mentioned above. >=20 > Come on ELCA get with the program. >=20 > Best, > Craig Johnson > US Navy Journalist assigned to AFRTS!      
(back) Subject: Re: (no subject) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:35:14 EDT   Hi Karl   Will you be at OHS Buffalo week after next? I hope to see you there!   Scott   Scott F. Foppiano Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat.  
(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:40:15 -0400   Sure, nobody's perfect, and Mr. Newton did indeed repent of his slave-trading eventually. My problem is with the hymn, not its author. My point is that to the extent that "Amazing Grace" is an account of what happened to him on May 10, 1748, then it is a perversion of Jesus' message. Maybe I should say _if_ it is an account of that experience.... An example of the misunderstanding I am attacking can be found on the otherwise estimable Cyber Hymnal web site: "John New-ton was a slave trader before coming to Christ." No, in thunder! He was a slave trader before coming to Christ and he was a slave trader for at least six years AFTER coming to Christ! So what did it mean for him to "come to Christ"?   By the way, my favorite verse to this, my least favorite hymn ("When we=B9ve been there ten thousand years, / Bright shining as the sun, / We=B9ve no less days to sing God=B9s praise / Than when we=B9d first begun.") was written by someone else, appearing in print in 1829, when Newton was all of two years old.   I love your story of gift of the altar. Reminds me of an image that often comes to mind when I'm playing in certain churches: a piano-player in a, uh, how shall I put this....? By the way, you didn't say whether the dono= r continued to run the porn shop after he gave the moola for altar....     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu     on 7/5/04 9:27 PM, Jeff White at reedstop@charter.net wrote:   > Wow...this is a news flash for me! I'd never heard this story! >=20 > Well, let me share something with you. When the new sanctuary was being > built, there was a member of the congregation who donated the funds for t= he > free-standing (and moveable) altar. What most people knew is that the do= nor > ran a porn shop (of some kind). Naturally, I would expect that it was > blessed during the dedication service. Does it make it less meaningful a= n > item in the sanctuary because of where it came from? I don't think so. = It > belongs to the church now. >=20 > I would apply the same to the text of the hymn. It doesn't matter what M= r. > Newton did in his life. Despite the business he chose, the text of that > hymn is a beautiful description of the power of saving grace in our lives= .. > Would you want to bet that a lot of the hymn-writers were less than perfe= ct? > :) >=20 > I am not trying to be argumentative or get your dander up, Randy. Just s= ome > food for thought. Feel free to consume or toss at will. :) If I helped > alleviate your nausea for that hymn, then at least I've been a help. :) >=20 > Respectfully, > Jeff >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of >> Randolph Runyon >> Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 7:28 PM >> To: PipeChat >> Subject: Amazing Grace >>=20 >>=20 >> The funny thing, when I looked into it, it turns out that John Newton di= d >> _not_ give up the slave-running business after he wrote the hymn, despit= e >> some people's understanding that he did. He thought it was perfectly OK= , >> and Christian, for him to bemoan his personal unchastity (or whatever >> personal sin he was thinking of in calling himself a wretch) in the hymn= , >> then think himself saved and go on and continue to trade in human flesh. >> Makes me sick to sing the hymn, as it is an apology for a perversion of >> Christianity. >>=20 >>=20 >> Randy Runyon >> Music Director >> Zion Lutheran Church >> Hamilton, Ohio >> runyonr@muohio.edu >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> on 7/5/04 3:03 PM, Jeff White at reedstop@charter.net wrote: >>=20 >> I am tiring >>>> of the overuse of "Amazing Grace" however. IMHO :-) >>>=20 >>> Stan, you are so right. And the people who play it drawn out >> and dead. I >>> try to be a little more upbeat with that particular hymn, just >> to keep it >>> from getting boring. Of course, you have your oldsters who like to sin= g >>> "Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like >>> MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE". :) >>>=20 >>> Jeff >>>=20 >>=20 >> "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >> PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >> HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >> List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >> Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >> List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >>=20 >=20 > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >=20    
(back) Subject: RE: Amazing Grace From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:40:23 +0800   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Orthodox Presbyterian Church From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 21:50:26 -0400   on 7/5/04 9:25 PM, Jan Nijhuis at nijhuis@email.com wrote:       In response to Glenda (only?)   Point 2, I believe you will find that members of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Reformed Presbyterian Church and several other smaller denomination= s are very much Calvinistic... and evangelical to boot! Presbyterianism being the form of government of the church; ruled by elders.   Interesting about the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I was unaware of its existence. Good to know there are some true Calvinists left (not that I would count myself in their number, but still). About how many members doe= s it have nationally?     So you=92re turning republican ... try it, it ain=92t so bad to be conservative= !   Glenda will turn Republican when pigs fly, I think. Right, Glenda?     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu