PipeChat Digest #4597 - Tuesday, July 6, 2004
 
RE: Amazing Grace
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: the church as restaurant
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Re: What to play?
  by "Phil Stimmel" <pca@sover.net>
Re: Orthodox Presbyterian Church
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Orthodox Presbyterian Church
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Re: the church as restaurant
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
RE: the church as restaurant
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Amazing Grace
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Re: the church as restaurant
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Organ in the news!
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: (no subject)
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
Re: (no subject)
  by "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Re: career change
  by "John Jarvis" <JLJarvis@comcast.net>
RE: Amazing Grace
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
RE: Amazing Grace
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: the church as restaurant
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
RE: the church as restaurant
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Re: Adding a Second Service
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Amazing Grace From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:59:54 -0500   Well, I won't claim to know much more than what I've said on this = particular hymn. Personally, it's not a favorite of mine either. I much prefer "I Know That My Redeemer Lives" or other Easter texts.   Curiously, the verse you quoted doesn't appear in our hymnals (by "our", I mean the LCMS "Lutheran Worship" and the ELCA "Lutheran Book of Worship.") I wonder why?   I can't say on the question about the altar. The sanctuary was built and dedicated in 1985/1986. I was just out of high school then, and not part = of this church until 2001. In that time, they had two major splits, so I assume he left during one of those. And you know, now that I think about it, there may be an inaccuracy in that story. Maybe it was that he died = and his family used part of the death benefit from his life insurance to buy it? I have to re-check my facts on this. But I *DO* know that there are some still there who can't help but think about it when they come to = church. Kinda sad.   Jeff   > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Randolph Runyon > Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 8:40 PM > To: PipeChat > Subject: Re: Amazing Grace > > > Sure, nobody's perfect, and Mr. Newton did indeed repent of his > slave-trading eventually. My problem is with the hymn, not its > author. My > point is that to the extent that "Amazing Grace" is an account of what > happened to him on May 10, 1748, then it is a perversion of > Jesus' message. > Maybe I should say _if_ it is an account of that experience.... > An example > of the misunderstanding I am attacking can be found on the otherwise > estimable Cyber Hymnal web site: "John New-ton was a slave trader = before > coming to Christ." No, in thunder! He was a slave trader before > coming to > Christ and he was a slave trader for at least six years AFTER coming to > Christ! So what did it mean for him to "come to Christ"? > > By the way, my favorite verse to this, my least favorite hymn ("When = we=B9ve > been there ten thousand years, / Bright shining as the sun, / > We=B9ve no less > days to sing God=B9s praise / Than when we=B9d first begun.") was = written by > someone else, appearing in print in 1829, when Newton was all of two = years > old. > > I love your story of gift of the altar. Reminds me of an image that = often > comes to mind when I'm playing in certain churches: a piano-player in = a, > uh, how shall I put this....? By the way, you didn't say > whether the donor > continued to run the porn shop after he gave the moola for altar.... > > > Randy Runyon > Music Director > Zion Lutheran Church > Hamilton, Ohio > runyonr@muohio.edu    
(back) Subject: RE: the church as restaurant From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:52:18 +0800   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: What to play? From: "Phil Stimmel" <pca@sover.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:11:00 -0400   Robert- There are lots of things you can play on this instrument; BUT, don't think of it as a "baroque" instrument, because it's not! I think a lot of us organists get into serious trouble when we try to make such an instrument behave like a very classic instrument. Look for music that will work well on it..19th and early 20th century pieces, romantic works. Just look at = the pieces played by Clarence Eddy and those of his vintage. It's a whold different kind of "animal."   Incidentally, I'd be curious to know which Estey this is? Where is it located? Phil   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Subject: What to play? From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 08:19:45 -0500   Later this summer I will be visiting an old friend who has an 11-rank = Estey, spec below, who wants me to play a recital, keeping in mind: "we really prefer the Baroque, Early American stuff, the great hymns of the church, etc. We hope you'll favor us with at least a half hour of music."   <continue quote> It's an Estey, 1926, 11-rank plus chimes. Fully duplexed (all ranks can be drawn from either manual). The Crescendo pedal works, NOT the Swell, as there are NO swell shades (we made the conscious decision to DISPLAY the organ workings to the audience). Stops are:   MANUAL Muted Viol 8' Viol d'Orchestre 8' Viol Celeste 8' Melodia 8' Flauto Traverso 4' Gross Flute 8' Open Diapason 8' Saxophone 8' Vox Humana 8' Chimes   PEDAL Bass Viol 16' Bourdon 16'   <end quote>   I'd greatly appreciate suggestions on what might work convincingly on this type of instrument. TIA, Robert Lind       The Estey Pipe Organ www.esteyorgan.com      
(back) Subject: Re: Orthodox Presbyterian Church From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 19:03:19 -0700   Associate Reform Presbyterians are the oldest in the US, I think ... they have a fine small liberal arts college with a GOOD music dept. -- Erskine College, Due West, SC ... 3m Holtkamp in the recital hall, 4m A/S in the church.   They have a large church built in the 1920s in my home town (Bartow, FL) .... when I was in high school, they still used the Presbyterian metrical Psalter of 1900 for the hymnal.   Cheers,   Bud   Randolph Runyon wrote:   > on 7/5/04 9:25 PM, Jan Nijhuis at nijhuis@email.com wrote: > > > > In response to Glenda (only?) > > Point 2, I believe you will find that members of the Orthodox > Presbyterian Church, Reformed Presbyterian Church and several other > smaller denominations are very much Calvinistic... and evangelical > to boot! Presbyterianism being the form of government of the church; > ruled by elders. > > Interesting about the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I was unaware > of its existence. Good to know there are some true Calvinists left > (not that I would count myself in their number, but still). About > how many members does it have nationally? > > > So you=92re turning republican ... try it, it ain=92t so bad to be > conservative! > > Glenda will turn Republican when pigs fly, I think. Right, Glenda? > > > Randy Runyon > Music Director > Zion Lutheran Church > Hamilton, Ohio > runyonr@muohio.edu >      
(back) Subject: Re: Orthodox Presbyterian Church From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 10:12:12 +0800   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: the church as restaurant From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:21:36 -0400   Jan Nijhuis, you have hit the nail on the head! The problem with many churches is that "the emphasis is on social interaction, not God's Holy Word." These churches (certainly the one where I play) are just social associations. The only food served there is pablum, =E0 la I Corinthians 3. 2. =20   That's a fascinating story about Toplady. So he plagiarized "Rock of Ages" from his worst enemy?     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu           on 7/5/04 9:52 PM, Jan Nijhuis at nijhuis@email.com wrote:     Jeff, there is nothing in post that is directed at you specifically ... there are, however, many churches whose sole purpose in contemporary (and traditional) services is to have "feel good" sessions. They'll sing about love and have barbecues on the back lawn, men's and women's retreats, ice cream socials and the like, but never challenge the congregation with biblical truths.=20   Their menu was very much a one item smorgasboard.   They have all the appearances of being a thriving church with a big congregation. Those are the churches that I stay away from. [perhaps there was more taught than I noticed, but the emphasis was on social interaction, not God's Holy Word.]     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff White"=20 Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:14:44 -0500 To: "PipeChat"=20 Subject: RE: the church as restaurant   Jan, I'm not sure what you're saying here. We're not offering food without substance. Our Contemporary service is just as meaty as the rest. We're seeing to that. We have a VERY liturgically-oriented pastor who has final say in all the new services. I'm not at all worried, even if they do scale back somewhat. Then again, I prefer to play for, and attend, the traditional service. To me, there's a certainly holiness that I don't personally feel at a contemporary service. =20 Regards, Jeff And all those kids running into the church of McDonald's only hoping to get a "number one, super-sized." What's the happy meal gift this week? Let's feed them all the same stuff over and over again, but not give them any food with substance.   -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com      
(back) Subject: RE: the church as restaurant From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:30:36 -0500   Jan, thanks for clarifying. I understand what you're saying, and that's sort of what I was trying to say earlier about Schuler's organization. We have a couple of "mega-churches" here in St. Louis that I feel does the = same thing. And honestly, that's what this whole move to having a separate contemporary service is partly about: they want to FEEL something. They want to be able to wave their hands in the air and "yay, Jesus!" kind of thing. That's not my style of worship. I'm not a stuffy or stodgy = Lutheran by any means. I enjoy feeling exhilirated by a particulary rousing hymn. And I do enjoy contemporary worship, despite the fact that I hate having that big organ sit silently the whole time.   You're right though...there's no need to have "yippee" services...you have to examine all of the aspects of the church. One comment was made a = couple of Sundays ago about not being so strict with following the Lectionary for these new services...a thought that makes me CRINGE. We'll see how that works out.. :)   Jeff   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of = Jan Nijhuis Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 8:52 PM To: PipeChat Subject: RE: the church as restaurant     Jeff, there is nothing in post that is directed at you specifically ... there are, however, many churches whose sole purpose in contemporary (and traditional) services is to have "feel good" sessions. They'll sing about love and have barbecues on the back lawn, men's and women's retreats, ice cream socials and the like, but never challenge the congregation with biblical truths.   Their menu was very much a one item smorgasboard.   They have all the appearances of being a thriving church with a big congregation. Those are the churches that I stay away from. [perhaps there was more taught than I noticed, but the emphasis was on social = interaction, not God's Holy Word.]  
(back) Subject: RE: Amazing Grace From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 10:26:40 +0800   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: the church as restaurant From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 10:33:33 +0800   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Organ in the news! From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 22:45:06 -0400   Only 636 years left in longest concert   Germans playing John Cage organ work very slowly   more at:   http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/05/music.longest.concert.ap/index.= h tml     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: Re: (no subject) From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 22:54:32 EDT   Yes, we had a wonderful Independance Day. Our service was not overly patriotic and the sermon was on the family. Keith and I did a duet of the = Ringwald "Battle Hymn of the Republic." This was a request and we enjoyed doing it = and arranging it for organ/piano duet. As we did not have services in the evening, we went to Fort Worth to the First Presbyterian Church in Fort = Worth where Robert McDonald and the community chorus had their annual July 4th = concert. Robert McDonald was formerly organist at Radio City Music Hall and = Riverside Church, as well as Sacred Heart Cathedral in Newark, NJ. He has done = these concerts for 15 years and the church was packed, with standing room only. = It is for Independance Day rather than a Sunday service. Even my 18 year old granddaughter enjoyed it. Lee  
(back) Subject: Re: (no subject) From: "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 23:05:45 -0400   Dear Scott,   Yes!! Look forward to seeing you and to enjoying someone else=B9 convention!! ;-)   Cordially,   Karl   On 7/5/04 9:35 PM, "ScottFop@aol.com" <ScottFop@aol.com> wrote:   > Hi Karl >=20 > Will you be at OHS Buffalo week after next? I hope to see you there! >=20 > Scott >=20 > Scott F. Foppiano > Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat. >=20      
(back) Subject: Re: career change From: "John Jarvis" <JLJarvis@comcast.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 21:20:21 -0700   I'm not looking to brag but I have made a successful career change = during the past 3 years from the world of High Tech sales to teaching High = School. I spent 10 years working my way up in the Data Center Environment of a = large Aerospace company and then spent the next 12 years working for a couple = of High Tech Manufacturing companies in their sales and marketing = departments. I always said that I would teach in my 2nd career and found that sales = was a pretty good outlet for that teaching urge and which paid very well. = I've nearly completed the Masters and well on my way to a Teaching Credential = all while Directing the Choral Program as a fairly large High School where I have 4 choirs and teach Music Theory. They monetary pay from this job = is such that I make less in one full month of work than I used to make in 4 days in the I.T. world. But the non-monetary rewards are totally = awesome - I have few memories of truly helping people in 22 years of I.T. but know that I have made a difference in some student's lives in 2 years of teaching. Luckily for me, even though I made a good salary, my = lifestyle has always been simple - this made the transition in pay so much easier = as I had no big amounts of debt.   JJ    
(back) Subject: RE: Amazing Grace From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:33:14 -0400   Personally, I don't think there is any comparison whatsoever to be made between running slaves and running a porn shop. Good story though! ;-)   -WG   >"Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> wrote: > >Well, let me share something with you. When the new sanctuary was being >built, there was a member of the congregation who donated the funds for = the >free-standing (and moveable) altar. What most people knew is that the = donor >ran a porn shop (of some kind). Naturally, I would expect that it was >blessed during the dedication service. Does it make it less meaningful = an >item in the sanctuary because of where it came from? I don't think so. = It >belongs to the church now. > >I would apply the same to the text of the hymn. It doesn't matter what = Mr. >Newton did in his life. Despite the business he chose, the text of that >hymn is a beautiful description of the power of saving grace in our = lives. >Would you want to bet that a lot of the hymn-writers were less than = perfect? >:) > >      
(back) Subject: RE: Amazing Grace From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 23:45:45 -0500     > Personally, I don't think there is any comparison whatsoever to be made > between running slaves and running a porn shop. Good story though! ;-) > > -WG   Well, I was just trying to say that it doesn't matter WHERE the text (or altar, in my story) came from...they're here for us now to use and it has meaning to a lot of people. That's the connection. No = comparison...granted. It wasn't meant to be. :-)   Jeff    
(back) Subject: RE: the church as restaurant From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 00:45:28 -0400   The restaurant analogy is sometimes more than an analogy. My congregation has added a 4th service to accomodate the CCM thing. We set out pastries, eggs, toast, and coffee during the service, and folks actually sit there eating during the music and spoken word. Now, I like a good breakfast as much as anyone, but something in this picture seems wrong to me. Perhaps I am just old-fashioned.   -WG   >"Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> wrote: > >As to the restaurant analogy...that was off the cuff and certainly not >intended to demean the 'product' as you say. ... > > >      
(back) Subject: RE: the church as restaurant From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:39:55 +0800   Could not copy the message to the digest, there was no plain text part
(back) Subject: Re: Adding a Second Service From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 14:01:13 +0800   Or you could have really long services ... as it is I'm there from 8:30 to = Noon-thrityish. Of course part of that is shoving the Young Chang 4' stage = right, setup, sound check, last minute run-throughs, tear down and bible = study. Kinda makes you long for the good old days when Sun (the whole) day = was devoted to worship, don't it?   We do a Prelude, three to five hymns (Lord's supper), special music or a = hymn during offertory, the Doxology and three modern praise songs a week.   Wish the pastor would hurry up with his point, the game starts in = half-an-hour. ;-(   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff White" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 18:55:56 -0500 To: "PipeChat" Subject: Adding a Second Service > > And one big bonus for me is that I'm on the organ bench one more Sunday = a > month! > --   Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com -- _______________________________________________ Talk More, Pay Less with Net2Phone Direct(R), up to 1500 minutes free! http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?143