PipeChat Digest #4598 - Tuesday, July 6, 2004
 
Re: Amazing Grace
  by "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com>
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Amazing Grace
  by <Swedish5702@aol.com>
Re: Amazing Grace
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: (no subject)
  by <Swedish5702@aol.com>
Firestorm
  by <Swedish5702@aol.com>
Re: Firestorm
  by "Roger Brown" <roger2@rogerbrown.no-ip.org>
Re: Amazing Grace
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Orthodox Presbyterian Church
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Amazing Grace
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Amazing Grace as urban legend
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: (no subject)
  by "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Apologies to all!!
  by "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu>
Re: Firestorm
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
Westminster Abbey
  by "alan taylor" <alantaylor@v21mail.co.uk>
Westminster Abbey
  by "alan taylor" <alantaylor@v21mail.co.uk>
Westminster Abbey
  by "alan taylor" <alantaylor@v21mail.co.uk>
RE: Westminster Abbey
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Westminster Abbey
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net>
RE: Orthodox Presbyterian Church
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
RE: Orthodox Presbyterian Church
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: Orthodox Presbyterian Church
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:04:41 -0400   From Randy Runyon: "The funny thing, when I looked into it, it turns out that John Newton did _not_ give up the slave-running business after he wrote the hymn, despite some people's understanding that he did. He thought it was perfectly OK, and Christian, for him to bemoan his personal unchastity (or whatever personal sin he was thinking of in calling himself a wretch) in the hymn, then think himself saved and go on and continue to trade in human flesh. Makes me sick to sing the hymn, as it is an apology for a perversion of Christianity."   The hymn may indeed have reached the point of being much too oversung and overplayed, but if what you say is accurate then perhaps rather than being sickened you could also view that fact that it's so much loved as a beautiful example of God's grace in bringing good out of evil. Or put another way, maybe it's a sign to us that John Newton wasn't *all* bad. = Let him who is without sin cast the first stone, etc. etc. etc.   Emily A., off to play it at a funeral this morning, at the bereaved = family's request    
(back) Subject: Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 06:58:10 EDT   Bud mentioned the ARP church...I played for the second largest ARP church = in the denomination, Ebenezer Church, in Rock Hill, SC, for a couple of = years. We were a little more progressive, using a hymnal in addition to the = "Bible Songs" psalter that many ARP churches still use, solely as their source = of music. However, many new church plants, are contemporary, and have = forsaken their heritage of "psalms only," and do only contemporary music. For = years, the ARP church did not allow anything but psalms to be sung, and their sister =   church in the north, the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, = as far as I know, still only sings psalms and does it unaccompanied, since they = do not allow musical instruments in worship. The ARP is strongest in SC, = GA, AL, and FL, although it has gained a stronghold in southern CA with the = Korean Presbyterians. There haave been a number of congregations who have = aligned with the denomination. The ARP and the Reformed Presbyterian Church of = North America are the fragments of what is left of the "Mother Church" in = Scotland, and trace their roots back (unbroken) to the first Scots-Irish settlers = who brougth their Presbyterian faith with them to these shores. The church = was established as the "Associate Presbytery", hence the name "Associate" = then when they tried to establish themselves as an idependent church they called themselves "Reformed". The schism between the northern and southern = church had to do more with singing Psalms than with anything else. The largest ARP = church is 1st ARP in Columbia, SC, which houses a large Casavant. Ebenezer in = Rock Hill, SC, houses a 3/29 Moller. Once the ARP caught on to the fact that pipe organs were not "papist" (which was in the early 1900's in many = cases!) many congregations bought fine instruments. Just some factoids about a = little known denomination and their musical heritage..... Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: <Swedish5702@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:10:23 EDT   Hello:   The most beautiful arrangement of this classic hymn at least to my ears = was played by Lee Erwin on the 4-24 Wonder Morton Theatre Pipe Organ in Loew's =   Kings Theatre Brooklyn, NY on the last day the instrument was played.   Thanks to my dear departed friend Harry Randall I have a copy of the = master reel on 10 1/2" two track crated for a move soon to Erie, Pa.   Dear Lee played the variations and it is complete and puts any recording = on a Skinner to shame. Again, my personal thoughts.   Best, Craig Johnson c/o Lock Haven, Pa.  
(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 09:13:22 -0400   on 7/6/04 6:04 AM, Emily Adams at eadams@cinci.rr.com wrote:     > you could also view that fact that it's so much loved as a > beautiful example of God's grace in bringing good out of evil. >   Emily, I can't quite see how the fact that a lot of people love it can = mean that God's grace is working through it. So is every thing that a lot of people love an instrument for God's grace? Vox populi vox Dei? Big Macs and SUV's?     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: Re: (no subject) From: <Swedish5702@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 09:24:22 EDT   Good Morning Karl:   In my move soon to Erie I am in a dilemma in regard to which church to settle down at.   Luther Memorial has a four manual Allen. Church of the Covenant has a = five manual Skinner/Schantz and my best friend in Erie, Msgr. Bill Biebel = rector of St. Peter's Cathedral has a four manual Casavant. Not to mention the = Mighty Wurlitzer in Shea's Buffalo only 90 miles east on I-90. I am getting goose = bumps just thinking about it. LOL!   What a luxury I will have. LOL! Plus, knowing Willy means knowing dear = Randy Wagner at Organ Supply.   I wish I had known you during your tenure at Messiah. YES! I know = everyone you listed and quite well.   They are all great folks! I noticed an email from Scott F. regarding the =   upcoming organ event in Buffalo. Not being a member how could I get in on = this exciting event and at the same time get to meet you?   Best, Craig  
(back) Subject: Firestorm From: <Swedish5702@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:20:48 EDT   Hello All:   Being both a writer/DJ and also a maker of music in God's House and other =   earthly locations I do believe I started a firestorm with my remarks.   I was asked by an area newspaper to reflect on Memorial Day and what it means to a former US Navy Journalist assigned to Armed Forces Radio and = Television Service and also a choral director and glee club director on CVA-62 USS INDEPENDENCE!   I do not apologize for my remarks as I am a proud citizen of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and had family members come over on the Mayflower and = have had family members fight for our freedom from the days of George Washington to =   George Bush the second.   If anyone would like me to share this piece I will do so. I am just sick = and tired of our beloved country getting pooped on by the rest of the world = and that includes Houses Of Worship!   Best, Craig  
(back) Subject: Re: Firestorm From: "Roger Brown" <roger2@rogerbrown.no-ip.org> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 00:33:16 +1000   On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 12:20 am, Swedish5702@aol.com wrote:   > I am just sick and tired of our beloved country   You just don't get it do you.   The Internet, and this group as part of the Internet, is *not* the sole preserve of the USA. And as such 'our beloved country' might be anywhere = from the arctic to the Antipodes.       -- Roger Brown robrown@melbpc.org.au roger2@rogerbrown.no-ip.org http://rogerbrown.no-ip.org  
(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:50:44 -0400   On 7/5/04 9:40 PM, "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> wrote:   > my favorite verse to this, my least favorite hymn ("When we=B9ve been there= ten > thousand years, / Bright shining as the sun, / We=B9ve no less days to sing > God=B9s praise / Than when we=B9d first begun.") was written by someone else, > appearing in print in 1829, when Newton was all of two years old.   Something wrong with the chronology there? Newton lived 1725 to 1807? >=20 > I love your story of gift of the altar.   I do to. I'll bet there are thousands of such stories! As you indicate, it'd be interesting to hear "the rest of the story." When I was a kid I ha= d a pastor who I KNOW would have rejected the donation. In the present case, what if the pastor had said, "Sorry. Can't accept that. Let me know if you'd like to revise* your offer." (Idle speculation--or maybe not.)   Alan   *Like, f'rinstance: "Add a three manual pipe organ, and donate your shop t= o the Salvation Army." =20    
(back) Subject: Re: Orthodox Presbyterian Church From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 11:57:33 -0400   On 7/5/04 9:50 PM, "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> wrote:   >> About how many members does [Orthodox Presbyterian Church] have = nationally?   Save somebody the trouble of looking it up. 22,000 at turn of recent millennium.   Alan  
(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:08:09 -0400     > Something wrong with the chronology there? Newton lived 1725 to 1807?   Yes, there was a lot wrong with my chronology. Sorry! I was writing late last night, way past my bedtime! As Jan Nijhuis clarifies, "The "final verse" was not by Newton, but comes from "A Collection of Sacred Ballads, 1790" and is attributed to John P. Rees."     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: Amazing Grace as urban legend From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:18:51 -0400   More light shed at http://www.snopes.com/religion/amazing.htm   In particular: "Newton began to express regrets about his part in the = slave trade only in 1780, thirty-two years after his conversion, and eight years after he wrote 'Amazing Grace.'" So it would appear that the hymn was not an expression of regret about his trading in slaves.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: Re: (no subject) From: "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:33:21 -0400   Dear Craig,   First of all, an apology: I intended to respond to you privately but i= n my sleepy state send my resposne to all on Pipechat! Not good. >=20 > In my move soon to Erie I am in a dilemma in regard to which church to s= ettle > down at. >=20 > Try to get in contact with The Rev. Robert White, an ELCA pastor in E= rie. > I got a strange-looking e-mail > address for him from ELCA-L: >=20 > rwhite@m.. >=20 > I don=B9t know if it will work or not. > (snip) > I wish I had known you during your tenure at Messiah. YES! I know everyo= ne > you listed and quite well. >=20 > They are all great folks! I noticed an email from Scott F. regarding th= e > upcoming organ event in Buffalo. Not being a member how could I get in on= this > exciting event and at the same time get to meet you?   The convention is 14 =AD 21 July and centered at the Adam Mark Hotel in Erie. Non-OHS members can register for a slightly bigger price, and it would be GREAT to meet you and visit with you. I=B9m 67, have a greying flat-top (as per my Army days), wear thin dark-rimmed glasses.   Cordially, Karl  
(back) Subject: Apologies to all!! From: "Karl Moyer" <kmoyer@marauder.millersville.edu> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 12:38:02 -0400   Dear Friends on Pipechat,   My profound apologies for now having sent the third private message to all on Pipechat. I need to get my e-mail act together!!   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA    
(back) Subject: Re: Firestorm From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 12:46:44 -0500   Craig,   What part of OFF TOPIC don't you understand? Personally, I don't really = give a hoot what your pedigree is, or what your political OR religious = views are. PipeChat is about the organ and music, NOT politics and = religion. Firestorm? No! Annoying and inappropriate? YES!   T=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Swedish5702@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 9:20 AM Subject: Firestorm     Hello All:   Being both a writer/DJ and also a maker of music in God's House and = other earthly locations I do believe I started a firestorm with my = remarks.   I was asked by an area newspaper to reflect on Memorial Day and what = it means to a former US Navy Journalist assigned to Armed Forces Radio = and Television Service and also a choral director and glee club director = on CVA-62 USS INDEPENDENCE!   I do not apologize for my remarks as I am a proud citizen of the = UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and had family members come over on the = Mayflower and have had family members fight for our freedom from the = days of George Washington to George Bush the second.   If anyone would like me to share this piece I will do so. I am just = sick and tired of our beloved country getting pooped on by the rest of = the world and that includes Houses Of Worship!   Best, Craig
(back) Subject: Westminster Abbey From: "alan taylor" <alantaylor@v21mail.co.uk> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:12:54 +0100   You will find the specification if the Westminster Abbey organ on the web site.   No, Bud, the case wasn't sawn in two. (That happened at St Paul's) The Abbeys organ cases were designed by Pearson. Also, the cases are not in = the triforium. Again, pictures can be found on the abbey website. About a = third of the organ is placed in the triforium.   The quire is called just that The Quire. Not the great choir.   There seems to be the idea around that the abbey organ is somehow quite. This is not the case. It doesn't speak into the organ loft. The organ was primarily designed to accompany the choir which sits in the quire. The = organ is in fact loud. It does suffer from being rebuilt many, many times and there are those, me amongst them, who would like the organ to be replaced. There are some lovely quite stops and full organ is exciting, but much between quite and full organ is dull.   The abbey employs, as does St Paul's, a staff of four organists. There are daily services. Evensong is sung everyday except Wednesdays. On Sundays there are three sung services. Details on the abbey web site. Large congregations are the norm at the sung services.   Alan Taylor London     Subject: Westminster Abbey organ From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 10:32:27 -0700   The Abbey organ, of course, has been rebuilt many times ... as I recall, it was rebuilt with new mechanism and new ranks for the Coronation in 1938, but re-using many old pipes. From the sound of it, it has been tinkered with since in an attempt to make it more baroque.     I don't recall the particulars, but when it was changed to either tubulur pneumatic action or electric action, the case was sawed in half, the facades were placed in the north and south triforium galleries, and the enlarged organ was divided behind them.   The original organ stood in the middle of the rood-loft and faced east and west -- with a facade to the crossing of the nave (Great Organ) and a facade to the Great Quire (Chair Organ), probably with two Great Diapasons (nave and quire) as at Winchester.   This may be a little difficult for US organists to visualize, as we have no rood-loft organs in this country ... if you recall, there is a solid wall between the east side of the crossing and the Great Quire in the Abbey, with an archway in the center. Above is a spacious loft across the entrance to the Great Quire, probably 2-3 bays deep from east to west. If I'm not mistaken, the CONSOLE is still there, facing at right angles to the High Altar. In modern times, the choirmaster conducts from the east end of the choir stalls, so the organ scholar can see him.   One of the problems is that the present organ speaks mostly INTO the (carpeted) rood-loft, which is used at various times for orchestra, large choirs, etc.   The rood-loft was very important in the pre-reformation Sarum Rite ... you will see many ancient English churches with little steep, narrow stairways (many closed off) which led up to it. The Gospel was sung from the rood-loft with great solemnity, accompanied by torches and incense and deacons and sub-deacons of honour (at least in large churches and cathedrals).   During the Interregnum, many of the rood-lofts and organs were torn down by the puritans, who objected to them as "papist."   The original organs placed there were small, as they performed the same function as their continental counterparts: versets in alternation with the chant. There was no congregational singing to accompany.   Along that line, the Abbey organ's main function is still to accompany choral services in the Great Quire. The Abbey is not a parish church, and has no congregation per se, though it has regular Sunday services. The same is true of most older English cathedrals. In this country, only St. John the Divine in New York City and Saints Peter and Paul in Washington DC have that arrangement ... both have parish churches for the neighborhood on the cathedral close.   Cheers,   Bud          
(back) Subject: Westminster Abbey From: "alan taylor" <alantaylor@v21mail.co.uk> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:14:51 +0100     You are quite correct Jeff. There is a monitor on the console. The = organist watches the conductors beat on the monitor. To try and wait for the sound = of the choir to reach the organ loft would make for a disaster.   Alan Taylor London   From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> As an American, you're right...this is a difficult concept to grasp why you'd cut off the main assembly from the Altar in front by this big wall. = I wonder, too, how difficult it is to maintain a beat when you have such a reverberant room, and the choirmaster so far from the organist, and vice versa. I think the closest we come in the US is having a split choir up = in front. I just came from a Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) where I visited my organbuilder friend, and that's how theirs is set up, with mirrors on the opposite wall from the console so the choir on that side = can see the organist.   You're right about the console placement in the Abbey, Bud. I noticed in the pictures, also, that there is a small television screen on the = console. Perhaps this is to help with the conducting?   Jeff    
(back) Subject: Westminster Abbey From: "alan taylor" <alantaylor@v21mail.co.uk> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:40:02 +0100         Not quite Bud, The whole of the abbey church was monastic. The monks built St Margaret's church next door for the laity. The monks did not want the laity in the abbey church. >A couple of things: pre-reformation, Westminster Abbey was a functioning Benedictine Abbey ... the Great Quire was the monastic church. There was a "Jesus Altar" placed in the Crossing WEST of the rood-loft and wall, for celebrations of the Mass on those days when Mass was offered "pro populo" (for the people) ... Sundays and major feasts.   All English parish churches had chancels or quires. The rubric was meant = for all churches, not just cathedrals.   >It's also hard to realize that the Great Quires of MANY of the English cathedrals and churches are BIG enough to hold the ENTIRE congregation on an ordinary Sunday. In fact, the first Prayer Book (1549) directs that those who are remaining for Holy Communion after Morning Prayer and the Litany on Sunday go up into the quire ... men on one side, women on the other (!) ... the separation of men and women on opposite sides of the church lasted until the 1950s in a few places in England. > > You're right about the console placement in the Abbey, Bud. I noticed = in > the pictures, also, that there is a small television screen on the console. > Perhaps this is to help with the conducting? > > Jeff   No, it is not possible now for the organist to see the conductor. In = Martin Neary's time, the conductor used the fixed music stand (fixed onto the = choir stalls) on Decani. This has now been removed and the conductor, who can be any of the four organists, now conduct from the fixed music stand on Cantoris. The monitor on the organ console controls a number of cameras. = You can indeed see the west doors as well as inside of the Lady Chapel.   >Possibly ... I think the organist can see the conductor directly. It's probably to be able to see the west doors, etc. to know when to begin things.   Wrong again I am afraid to say. There are no second sopranos. Each side of the quire has, in the back row, two bass's two tenors, two counter tenors. The boys sit in the front row.   >They make sense in cathedrals where the Office is still sung ... those choirs typically have the second sopranos, altos, tenors, and basses on one side, and the firsts on the other, and many English anthems are written for that disposition ... you will often see "Verse" (usually the Decani side) and "Full" or "Can(toris)", the Gospel side and "Dec(ani), the Epistle side, being the Cantors' side and the Dean's side = respectively.     Alan Taylor, London            
(back) Subject: RE: Westminster Abbey From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:03:00 +1200   >No, Bud, the case wasn't sawn in two. (That happened at St Paul's) The Abbeys organ cases were designed by Pearson. Also, the cases are not in = the Triforium.   True. There was a while when the organ, rebuilt for the pre-WWII = coronation, had no case.   >The quire is called just that The Quire. Not the great choir.   True.   >It doesn't speak into the organ loft.   True.   >The organ is in fact loud. It does suffer from being rebuilt many, many times and there are those, me amongst them, who would like the organ to be replaced. There are some lovely quite stops and full organ is exciting, but much between quite and full organ is dull.   True. There are some very old stops: E.Power Biggs demonstrated two of = them in "The Art of the Organ".   Remember, too, and this point has not been made in the last few days, that in the great monastic churches and in the cathedrals, the nave was never intended for congregational use. In fact, the nave was usually as a = sort-of parading ground for the local townspeople, often a market-place, and so = on. It was only really in the 19thC that there began to be diocesan and nave-full occasions. With this in mind, the screen was in fact the west = end for quire services, and the organ on the screen was thus effectively at = the west end as well.   I'm not certain how much of Westminster Abbey's screen is all that old, anyway. Certainly, Scott had one mighty lot to do with altering it and providing new quire furnishings, as in so many other places.   Ross   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 5/07/2004    
(back) Subject: Re: Westminster Abbey From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 16:16:49 -0500   At 03:14 PM 7/6/2004, you wrote: >There is a monitor on the console. The organist >watches the conductors beat on the monitor.   Oh, my...   That must be terribly hard on the monitor. Bet they go through a lot of them with all the pounding! I'd think it more practical to beat on a = drum, music stand, back of a chair, gallery rail, or something....?   <giggle>   --Tim ;-)    
(back) Subject: RE: Orthodox Presbyterian Church From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:31:38 -0500   Perhaps someone would clue me in as to the location of the Orthodox or Reformed Presbyterian Church nearest northwest Florida. That is not an animal we have seen here. My husband would like to join. The PCAs and PUSAs (sorry if I didn't get the initials right) in this neck of the woods have long since abandoned Calvinism.   No one has ever accused me of being lukewarm; I run both hot and cold, depending on your perspective, but I don't sit on fences, particularly barbed-wire ones. However, I am quite tolerant of extremists, no matter how wrong they might be! And my selection of music for services is out there too, to be sure. But people leave knowing they've been to a worship experience.   Pigs will have to do more than fly, Randy.   One point about Amazing Grace - the rubrics (using that term loosely) of the Episcopal Church state that the Eucharist is not nullified just because it is administered by an unworthy (again, term used loosely) priest (of course I am paraphrasing, but I'm getting ready for two days of court and can't remember the exact verbiage, and have not the time to look it up while prepping witnesses over the phone). In an analogous vein, I believe God works his will through and in spite of the righteous and unrighteous, Christian and non-Christian, angels and demons. Although Amazing Grace is far from my favorite hymn, I do not discount its message because it came from the hand of a slave-trader. Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com (founder of the Church of the Reformed Liturgical Twin-V Harley Hogs - we will accept no organ under three manuals, and there is an initiation rite) Laugh at me, or laugh near me, but don't take me seriously unless you see me in court.      
(back) Subject: RE: Orthodox Presbyterian Church From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:45:26 -0500   I know, I know - 1801 Articles of Religion, Section XXVI. Excuse me for the lapse, but it wasn't on WestLaw.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Glenda   One point about Amazing Grace - the rubrics (using that term loosely) of the Episcopal Church state that the Eucharist is not nullified just because it is administered by an unworthy (again, term used loosely) priest (of course I am paraphrasing, but I'm getting ready for two days of court and can't remember the exact verbiage, and have not the time to look it up while prepping witnesses over the phone). In an analogous vein, I believe God works his will through and in spite of the righteous and unrighteous, Christian and non-Christian, angels and demons. Although Amazing Grace is far from my favorite hymn, I do not discount its message because it came from the hand of a slave-trader.        
(back) Subject: Re: Orthodox Presbyterian Church From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 19:02:05 -0400   on 7/6/04 6:31 PM, Glenda at gksjd85@direcway.com wrote:   > Perhaps someone would clue me in as to the location of the Orthodox or > Reformed Presbyterian Church nearest northwest Florida. That is not an > animal we have seen here. My husband would like to join. The PCAs and > PUSAs (sorry if I didn't get the initials right) in this neck of the > woods have long since abandoned Calvinism.   There's one in Tallahassee, Glenda: http://www.calvaryopc.net/index.php?p=3Dhome   Cheers,     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu