PipeChat Digest #4599 - Wednesday, July 7, 2004
 
folder
  by "Merry Foxworth" <m.foxworth@verizon.net>
Re: folder
  by "Don Sizemore" <dls@metalab.unc.edu>
Re: Amazing Grace
  by "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com>
2 More Estey Questions
  by "Phil Stimmel" <pca@sover.net>
Re: folder
  by "Merry Foxworth" <m.foxworth@verizon.net>
canned music and righteous indignation
  by "tom carter" <tcarter215@yahoo.com>
Re: canned music and righteous indignation
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
Re: Amazing Grace
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: canned music and righteous indignation
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: canned music and righteous indignation
  by "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net>
the devil's money
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: the devil's money
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
RE: canned music and righteous indignation
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Amazing Grace
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
RE: canned music and righteous indignation
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
 

(back) Subject: folder From: "Merry Foxworth" <m.foxworth@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:09:39 -0400   How does one create the folder to receive messages from this list in = Outlook Express?   An excerpt from Robert Giddings "Musical Quotes and Anecdotes", published in Longman Pocket Companions: "There let the pealing organ blow, To the full-voiced choir below, In service high, and anthems clear, As may with sweetness, through mine ear, Dissolve me into ecstasies, And bring all Heav'n before mine eyes". John Milton - Il Penseroso (1632).   Merry Foxworth Open Door Realty Boston, MA 02131 617 469-4888 x207 877 865-1703 toll free http://www.opendoorrlty.com/      
(back) Subject: Re: folder From: "Don Sizemore" <dls@metalab.unc.edu> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:31:48 -0400 (EDT)     |How does one create the folder to receive messages from this list in |Outlook Express?   - Pull down the Tools menu, choose "Message Rules" and then "Mail" - In box 1 check "Where the To line contains people" - In box 2 check "Move it to the specified folder" - In box 3 click on "contains people" and enter pipechat@pipechat.org - Click on "specified" and maybe create a "Pipechat" folder.   On an other note, did anyone get to attend the Independence Day Organ Concert at National Cathedral? The plasma TVs and console spy-camera made the recital a neat experience for everyone I brought (I being the only organist among my friends), and the improvisation on Materna was absolutely breathtaking. It more than made up for the previous day's ankle-deep mud, surly security and roped-off landmarks.   Donald    
(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:50:21 -0400   From Randy Runyon: "Emily, I can't quite see how the fact that a lot of people love it can = mean that God's grace is working through it. So is every thing that a lot of people love an instrument for God's grace? Vox populi vox Dei? Big Macs and SUV's?"   Of course not. Perhaps I should have said "people love it within a context of a simple, articulate, meaningful vehicle of spiritual expression." Or, = as I see Glenda has expressed in her articulate manner much more concisely = than I could: "Although Amazing Grace is far from my favorite hymn, I do not discount its message because it came from the hand of a slave-trader."   Enough said. If you can't see the difference between the hymn and a Big = Mac, I'm afraid I can't help.   Emily A.    
(back) Subject: 2 More Estey Questions From: "Phil Stimmel" <pca@sover.net> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:14:41 -0400   Hello- I need to indulge the readers of this list with two more questions = relating to Estey organs......this time the Residence instruments.   1) I have numerous photos of residence organs that I need help = identifying: http://www.esteyorgan.com/photographs.html I have accumulated these from = a number of sources, and would like to attach an opus number to each photo.   2) Does anyone know of Estey residence organs that are still in their original locations and relatively unchanged? It seems that with the major societal changes from the 1920's & 30's that very many of these = instruments have been torn out, junked, or drastically modified.   Phil The Estey Pipe Organ www.esteyorgan.com      
(back) Subject: Re: folder From: "Merry Foxworth" <m.foxworth@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:43:29 -0400   Don, Thanks for the instructions. I followed them the best I could. Another question: Assuming I got this to work, how do I get to the folder? = (don't laugh!!) Merry     =B4=A8=A8)) -:=A6:- =B8.=B7=B4 .=B7=B4=A8=A8)) ((=B8=B8.=B7=B4 ..=B7=B4 -:=A6:-   An excerpt from Robert Giddings "Musical Quotes and Anecdotes", published in Longman Pocket Companions: "There let the pealing organ blow, To the full-voiced choir below, In service high, and anthems clear, As may with sweetness, through mine ear, Dissolve me into ecstasies, And bring all Heav'n before mine eyes". John Milton - Il Penseroso (1632).   Merry Foxworth Open Door Realty Boston, MA 02131 617 469-4888 x207 877 865-1703 toll free http://www.opendoorrlty.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Sizemore" <dls@metalab.unc.edu> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 8:31 PM Subject: Re: folder     > > |How does one create the folder to receive messages from this list in > |Outlook Express? > > - Pull down the Tools menu, choose "Message Rules" and then "Mail" > - In box 1 check "Where the To line contains people" > - In box 2 check "Move it to the specified folder" > - In box 3 click on "contains people" and enter pipechat@pipechat.org > - Click on "specified" and maybe create a "Pipechat" folder. > > On an other note, did anyone get to attend the Independence Day > Organ Concert at National Cathedral? The plasma TVs and console > spy-camera made the recital a neat experience for everyone I brought > (I being the only organist among my friends), and the improvisation on > Materna was absolutely breathtaking. It more than made up for the > previous day's ankle-deep mud, surly security and roped-off landmarks. > > Donald > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: canned music and righteous indignation From: "tom carter" <tcarter215@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:53:25 -0700 (PDT)   Hello all: Had a conflict in my church position this past weekend (not related to = separation of church and state) and hoped I might solicit some = advice/opinions Due to Independence Day our regular 7 pm "praise-and-worship" service was = cancelled and instead combined with our 9:30 am "traditional" service (I = could right pages just on these misnomers) Rather than program what most = would consider a properly 'blended' service, we had what I would term = instead a 'segregated' or 'half-and-half' service. The band from the = evening service led the worship up to the offertory, and we traditional = organ-and0choir folk were responsible for the music for everything = thereafter. Upon submitting my prelude and postlude indications for the bulletin as = usual (middle-brow piano material specifically chosen to pander to = everyone and to satisfy noone, myself included) I was called and told that = no prelude was necessary,as the contemporary people had the 1st half. = They typically play no prelude, and instead have a CD of very bland = "Christian Muzak" playing while people enter, chat about the kids' soccer = teams and that sort of thing I suggested that since there was someone able and even willing to = contribute something a bit more substantial and more personal, that I = considered it unnecessary to use prerecorded music in the church. What I = got in response was a condemnation of traditional church music advocates = as 'performance artists' - not a fair accusation at all, at least in this = church - and the questionable claim that a CD was less taxing on the = congregation, as they didnt really feel obligated to pay attention (i.e. = to prepare themselves for worship) I have been concerned with the increasing use of PowerPoint and video = footage (including two "Everybody Loves Raymond" clips recently), but this = struck me as an affront, and I can hardly believe that people could = seriously hold forth that recorded music was preferable to the real deal What are your opinions on the use of CDs in place of live music in church = not only 'accompaniment' tracks for soloists, but prelude, postlude and = other instrumental music in spite of the presence of a trained, talented = musician? If you've run into this in your own jobs or places of worship, = how have you presented the case for the genuine article? Thanks, Tom       --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
(back) Subject: Re: canned music and righteous indignation From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:59:55 EDT   Well, when there's real music, real music should prevail.   However, if a soloist prefers to use a tape or CD because he/she has practiced with it, I don't have a problem with that.   Neil Brown  
(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:04:31 -0400   on 7/6/04 8:50 PM, Emily Adams at eadams@cinci.rr.com wrote:   > > Of course not. Perhaps I should have said "people love it within a = context > of a simple, articulate, meaningful vehicle of spiritual expression." = Or, as > I see Glenda has expressed in her articulate manner much more concisely = than > I could: "Although Amazing Grace is far from my favorite hymn, I do not > discount its message because it came from the hand of a slave-trader." > > Enough said. If you can't see the difference between the hymn and a Big = Mac, > I'm afraid I can't help. > > Emily A.   I probably shouldn't prolong this discussion, as it is venturing = off-topic, since my point is a theological one. My problem is with the theology = behind Newton's hymn, which permits one to continue sinning (e.g., trading in slaves) with a clean conscience because one is under the mistaken = impression that one is "saved" and thus free from sin. It's Christianity as one big insurance policy. It's a Christianity in error because it focuses on personal salvation at the expense of social justice (e.g., Luke 4. 18). = As J. Denny Weaver writes in _The Nonviolent Atonement_, paraphrasing theologians like James H. Cone, "atonement formulas devoid of ethics actually contribute to sinful living since they provide a means to = maintain a proper legal status before God without speaking about transformed life under the rule of God" (p. 79). Newton's hymn is based on such an = atonement formula (Jesus died for me, so I'm OK and you're OK too if you buy into = this pyramid scheme). James H. Cone puts it this way: "While white preachers and theologians often defined Jesus Christ as a spiritual Savior, the deliverer of people from sin and guilt, black preachers were = unquestionably historical. They viewed God as the Liberator in history." (_God of the Oppressed_, p. 51).   You write: "Perhaps I should have said 'people love it within a context = of a simple, articulate, meaningful vehicle of spiritual expression.'" Yes, but what exactly is being expressed? Is just any spiritual expression = good enough?   By the way, it's not that I can't see the difference between the hymn and = a Big Mac, but that I can see what they have in common. That's not the same thing.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: Re: canned music and righteous indignation From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:13:29 EDT   In a message dated 7/6/2004 8:54:20 PM Central Daylight Time, tcarter215@yahoo.com writes:   Hello all: Had a conflict in my church position this past weekend (not related to separation of church and state) and hoped I might solicit some = advice/opinions Due to Independence Day our regular 7 pm "praise-and-worship" service was =   cancelled and instead combined with our 9:30 am "traditional" service (I = could right pages just on these misnomers) Rather than program what most would =   consider a properly 'blended' service, we had what I would term instead a =   'segregated' or 'half-and-half' service. The band from the evening = service led the worship up to the offertory, and we traditional organ-and0choir folk were =   responsible for the music for everything thereafter.   Upon submitting my prelude and postlude indications for the bulletin as usual (middle-brow piano material specifically chosen to pander to = everyone and to satisfy noone, myself included) I was called and told that no prelude = was necessary,as the contemporary people had the 1st half. They typically = play no prelude, and instead have a CD of very bland "Christian Muzak" playing = while people enter, chat about the kids' soccer teams and that sort of thing I suggested that since there was someone able and even willing to = contribute something a bit more substantial and more personal, that I considered it unnecessary to use prerecorded music in the church. What I got in = response was a condemnation of traditional church music advocates as 'performance = artists' - not a fair accusation at all, at least in this church - and the questionable claim that a CD was less taxing on the congregation, as they = didnt really feel obligated to pay attention (i.e. to prepare themselves for worship) I have been concerned with the increasing use of PowerPoint and video footage (including two "Everybody Loves Raymond" clips recently), but this = struck me as an affront, and I can hardly believe that people could seriously = hold forth that recorded music was preferable to the real deal What are your opinions on the use of CDs in place of live music in church =   not only 'accompaniment' tracks for soloists, but prelude, postlude and = other instrumental music in spite of the presence of a trained, talented = musician? If you've run into this in your own jobs or places of worship, how have = you presented the case for the genuine article? Thanks, Tom     Dear Tom, The AGO speaks against the use of pre-recorded music. As far as the insulting comments....consider a few things--what are your qualifications, what is your salary, can you easliy replace your job with = a new one? If someone treated me like that, I would quit...and tell them = EXACTLY why. However idiotic "splitting" the service was...it was perfectly acceptable...(stupid but ok)..The line was crossed with the personal = insult (What I got in response was a condemnation of traditional church music advocates = as 'performance artists' ) Did the pastor say this to you? Check this out: _A Position Statement On The Use Of Pre-Recorded Music For Worship_ (http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/redir?src=3Dwebsearch&requestId=3D8659d23b5e5= 5d05f&clickedIte mRank=3D1&userQuery=3Damerican+guild+of+organists+pre+recorded+music&clicke= dItemUR N=3Dhttp://admin.acadiau.ca/chaplain/rcco_position_music.pdf) (http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/redir?src=3Dwebsearch&requestId=3D8659d23b5e5= 5d05f&clickedItemRank=3D1 &userQuery=3Damerican+guild+of+organists+pre+recorded+music&clickedItemURN= =3Dhttp: //admin.acadiau.ca/chaplain/rcco_position_music.pdf) - ... Statement On = The Use Of Pre-Recorded Music For Worship Royal Canadian College of Organists = The following, which is based on the American Guild of Organists ... http://admin.acadiau.ca/chaplain/rcco_position_music.pdf _   Good luck-send me a personal email if you wish. All the best, gfc   ___________________________________________________________________________= ___ _________ _______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ _______________________________ ________________ Gregory Francis Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Avenue # GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com_ (mailto:gfc234@aol.com)  
(back) Subject: Re: canned music and righteous indignation From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:15:50 -0500 (GMT-05:00)   Tom,   I turned the tables on them by using the words: HOLY SPIRIT. I said to = them, "This is funny, you are usually the ones accusing me, a classically = trained paid church musician, of being mercenary and spiritless. Yet here = you are putting on a CD when only a live musician can best respond to the = Holy Spirit's presence as we prepare for worship. That CD isn't going to = read people's moods, be sensitive to volume (unless somebody is playing DJ = and riding the dials). It's not going to adjust in any way to the = whispering of the Holy Spirit. For this reason alone, you need to give me = the benefit of the doubt and forget the CD." They agreed! And afterward = they said that I was correct, that they definitely felt the Spirit. God = forgive me for being that manipulative, I leave it to you to interpret = what it all means.   Chuck Peery Cincinnati  
(back) Subject: the devil's money From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 21:31:26 -0500   I believe it was the evangelical preacher of a couple of generations = back, Dwight L. Moody, who commented in regard to a "tainted" gift something on the order of, "The devil's had the use of the money long enough. Let's = put it to the Lord's work."   Incidentally, Moody Bible Institute in Chicago had a small Moller I = believe at one time; I don't know what they are using now.   Dennis Steckley & A Six-Pack of Cats    
(back) Subject: Re: the devil's money From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 22:34:31 EDT   In a message dated 7/6/2004 9:32:22 PM Central Daylight Time, = kzrev@rr1.net writes:   I believe it was the evangelical preacher of a couple of generations = back, Dwight L. Moody, who commented in regard to a "tainted" gift something on the order of, "The devil's had the use of the money long enough. Let's = put it to the Lord's work."   Incidentally, Moody Bible Institute in Chicago had a small Moller I = believe at one time; I don't know what they are using now.   Dennis Steckley & A Six-Pack of Cats       the same! gfc ___________________________________________________________________________= ___ _________ _______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ _______________________________ ________________ Gregory Francis Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Avenue # GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile _gfc234@aol.com_ (mailto:gfc234@aol.com)  
(back) Subject: RE: canned music and righteous indignation From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:57:51 +1200   >Had a conflict in my church position this past weekend (not related to separation of church and state) and hoped I might solicit some advice/opinions   I'm rather biassed, I'll admit that, and am both a clergyman and trad.organist, but here goes anyway. =A0 >and the questionable claim that a CD was less taxing on the = congregation, as they didnt really feel obligated to pay attention (i.e. to prepare themselves for worship)=20 =A0 I'd go to town about this one. Shouldn't we encourage people to grow, = rather than blanding out and dumbing-down? Do we really believe we can be so = sloppy as to treat the Almighty as just another entertainment and treat the before-worship spell like canned music in a cinema? What about the putting-off of shoes, for this is holy ground? Try these sorts of = questions on your vicar.   >I have been concerned with the increasing use of PowerPoint and video footage (including two "Everybody Loves Raymond" clips recently), but = this struck me as an affront, and I can hardly believe that people could seriously hold forth that recorded music was preferable to the real deal =     Very bad indeed. Ask the Vicar not to come next time, and you'll play a power point of someone else (not him) preaching a sermon. Ask how you = can do something sacramental by proxy. =A0 >What are your opinions on the use of CDs in place of live music in = church not only 'accompaniment' tracks for soloists, but prelude, postlude and other instrumental music in spite of the presence of a trained, talented musician?=A0=20   As a Vicar (retired) I'd never allow it. That is not talents, hearts and hands and minds, offered to God, but entertainment, and has no value at = all to the half-listening audience, and is an insult to God. As for video = clips - that's even worse. Ask your Vicar if it is appropriate for people to = offer the use of their God-given talents back to God in worship? If he says = yes, then ask him how canned music and video enable musicians to do this. If = he says no, does that mean His gifts are of no meaning or purpose or significance?   I'm now retired, but take about two services a month and play the (electronic, sadly) organ for about three services. I recently played at = the 10am service, which has a small group of elderly people (65 years +) as = a "music group" along with their pianist and a scratchy violinist. The = "music group" and the congregation generally were yakking on, gossiping noisily = and the violinist playing his tuning-noise scratchings. Afterwards, a music group member interrupted my closing voluntary and told me to shut up = because I was interrupting their talking. I hit the roof and told them that if = they want me to play the organ for them, they will keep silence in the church = and there is to be no talk at all. Too, the violinist may tune up, but then = keep silence as well. Further, that under no circumstances will I accompany = their "ditties" before the Service, but there will be appropriate organ music = from the masters.=20   Next week, me playing again, the usual hubbub. Afterwards, I told them I meant what I said and would walk out if my instructions were not = followed 100%. "But we always talk before and after" was their plaintively = pathetic excuse. My comment was that if they didn't want to worship, that's their choice, but they would not stop other people from worshipping and = praying if I was rostered on to play. I know I'm clear and away the best organist = they ever have at 10am, and they don't want to lose this, but the choice is theirs. I told them I cannot believe they idle chatter about gardenings, games of bridge, haircuts, new cars etc. are seen as prayer, whereas = music prepared and played for the Service, and offered to God, is.=20   And now I wait till next time I'm rostered on at 10am. There is no = problem at the 8am, nor at the services in the other two churches in the parish.   As I say, I'm probably biassed.=20   Oh yes, ask them how many people go to "recitals" and "concerts" in the = Town Hall of pre-recorded music, compared with live concerts. Too, ask them = how many people would go to a power-point presentation of ballet or opera compared with the real thing. If they are honest, they=92ll have to = admit that the canned stuff wouldn't attract an audience big enough to fill the = front row. Then ask them why they think God should be treated with less = respect than a secular function in a secular building with no spiritual = intention whatever.   Grouching,   Ross     --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 5/07/2004 =20    
(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:02:39 -0500     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 9:04 PM Subject: Re: Amazing Grace     > on 7/6/04 8:50 PM, Emily Adams at eadams@cinci.rr.com wrote: > > > > > Of course not. Perhaps I should have said "people love it within a context > > of a simple, articulate, meaningful vehicle of spiritual expression." Or, as > > I see Glenda has expressed in her articulate manner much more = concisely than > > I could: "Although Amazing Grace is far from my favorite hymn, I do = not > > discount its message because it came from the hand of a slave-trader." > > > > Enough said. If you can't see the difference between the hymn and a = Big Mac, > > I'm afraid I can't help. > > > > Emily A. > > I probably shouldn't prolong this discussion, as it is venturing off-topic, > since my point is a theological one. My problem is with the theology behind > Newton's hymn, which permits one to continue sinning (e.g., trading in > slaves) with a clean conscience because one is under the mistaken impression > that one is "saved" and thus free from sin.   The only problem I have with this -- I being a liberal Episcopalian who could not care less about Calvinism and therefore doesn't have any particular axe to grind on the subject -- is that most Calvinists in the eighteenth century operated the other way round. Most of them felt that they were eternally damned and had no hope, and quite a few of them, like William Cowper, committed suicide. If this is what Newton really thought, he was very atypical of his generation of Calvinist thinkers.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: RE: canned music and righteous indignation From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 12:33:44 +0800   Sometimes AMEN is appropriate, AMEN!   ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 14:57:51 +1200 To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: RE: canned music and righteous indignation   > Oh yes, ask them how many people go to "recitals" and "concerts" in the = Town > Hall of pre-recorded music, compared with live concerts. Too, ask them = how > many people would go to a power-point presentation of ballet or opera > compared with the real thing. If they are honest, they=92ll have to = admit that > the canned stuff wouldn't attract an audience big enough to fill the = front > row. Then ask them why they think God should be treated with less = respect > than a secular function in a secular building with no spiritual = intention > whatever. > > Grouching, > > Ross -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   -- _______________________________________________ Talk More, Pay Less with Net2Phone Direct(R), up to 1500 minutes free! http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?143