PipeChat Digest #4601 - Wednesday, July 7, 2004
 
Re: canned music and righteous indignation
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
RE: Westminster Abbey
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: the devil's money
  by <Steskinner@aol.com>
Re: canned music and righteous indignation
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: canned music and righteous indignation
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Organs and organists online updated
  by "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr>
Re: Orthodox Presbyterian Church
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Estey residence organs
  by "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com>
Re: Firestorm
  by "Steve Chandler" <stevec@open-tech.com>
Re: Re: canned music and righteous indignation
  by <reedstop@charter.net>
Eucharist vs. homiletics
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Righteous indignation!
  by "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net>
Re: canned music and righteous indignation
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: canned music and righteous indignation
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: canned music and righteous indignation
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: canned music and righteous indignation
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: canned music
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
People who have the unmitigated gall to chat and chatter while I am playi
  by "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com>
Re: People who have the unmitigated gall to chat and chatter while I am p
  by <reedstop@charter.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: canned music and righteous indignation From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 04:31:03 -0600   Hello, Tom, et al: =20 You have asked a question that opens a bag of worms,=20 for there has grown a huge gulf between the concepts=20 of worship by those in the Contemporary Christian=20 Music genre and those who advocate "traditional"=20 church music. =20 First, to understand where they are coming from,=20 you have to go back about 40 years to a time when=20 the world turned up-side-down in what was called=20 the Berkley Revolution. They wanted to right all=20 of what they perceived as being wrong in the world. =20 It was their primary intent to destroy the establishment. =20 They rejected everything that was representative of=20 authority and promoted free love and peace. =20 Therefore, they also reject God, the Church, and=20 the Bible, to get rid of that set of authorities=20 over their lives, also. =20 =20 Now, . . . in 2004, those people are in control=20 of most churches, are on the boards of most=20 institutions, and occupy the seats of "authority"=20 in most denominations. These people adovocate the=20 music styles now known as Contemporary Christian=20 Music, and are still intent, wherever and whenever=20 they can, on tearing out that which we know (and,=20 maybe, love) as traditional church music. =20 This is the simplistic explanation of why they are=20 indignant over having anything to do with a service=20 in which they have to share the musical presentations. =20 It goes against their concept of being acceptable. =20 Among everything else associated with CCM, the organ=20 is the most visible instrument against which they=20 can rebel. AND, the litany goes on and on. =20 I also have learned from which CCM feeds on the=20 hearts and minds of those who advocate its use in=20 the modern church. It is an ugly picture, but=20 if you wish, I can explain it. Write me off-line=20 for the underlying reasons (causes and effects)=20 of the continuing rebellion against church music=20 is broader than just music. It involves the whole=20 mode of worship in church, or anywhere else they=20 gather, and challenges who we (traditionalists)=20 and how we think. We may not be on the same=20 theological page at all. =20 Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt =20 =20 ..
(back) Subject: RE: Westminster Abbey From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 22:23:45 +1200     >Afraid not Ross. The stops (two flutes on the choir organ) are now = thought to have been by Hill. It would seem that Hill would sometimes play a joke = by making pipes look old. The experts say the stops are Victorian.   Thanks. I didn't know those two stops had been re-dated. Good joke on = Hill's part, and shows his skill as well. It was a funny experience, listening to those two old "Art of the Organ" lp's, seeing the specification of the = Abbey organ - and then hearing just two stops. Well, I was younger than 20 then and wouldn't have objected to at least three bars a little louder than 8 & 2! :-)   Ross   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.716 / Virus Database: 472 - Release Date: 5/07/2004    
(back) Subject: Re: the devil's money From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:03:56 EDT   In a message dated 7/6/2004 10:32:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, = kzrev@rr1.net writes: Incidentally, Moody Bible Institute in Chicago had a small Moller I = believe at one time; I don't know what they are using now. If by "small" you mean a four manual, 60+ rank, then you are correct. Designed by Don Hustad and installed in the 1960's, I believe. Moody = Memorial Church has a fairly big instrument with a Reuter console.   Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA  
(back) Subject: Re: canned music and righteous indignation From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:19:39 EDT   Neil wrote: >Well, when there's real music, real music should prevail. That is the same philosophy we have at my church. We have the = instruments and capale musicians...we use them. CDs ARE NOT allowed. The edict = comes from the pastor and music staff. There are a few exceptions, of course, = like when the youth liturgical dance group dances, but when singers sing or in = lieu of a prelude, no way. As to the person who wrote that his church claimed that the CD was less taxngon the congregation and they didn't have to prepare, our prelude is = listed as "Music for preparation of worship" There is a note in the bulletin = that says that the preparation time should be used to separate oneself from the = outside world and be drawn closer into the presence of God through prayer. = At the early two services, it has cut down dramatically on the amount of = talking, at the third services....well....they have yet to read the bulletin. = Anyway, that's partially because the second service always runs right into the = thrid service with about 5 minutes between services, so the postlude finishes = and the prelude begins and it's always mass pandemonium. I can't blame everything on the people. I think that the people need that preparation time before the service to = get themselves ready for church...if they are not in the right frame of mind, =   they don't always get everything out of a service--mind wandering and = such. At least with a live musician, people are more apt to focus on the music and =   get their mind in the right place, with Jesus muzak, they're just numbed = and tune the whole experience out. Just my thoughts..... Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: canned music and righteous indignation From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 07:02:23 -0600   Hello, Monty, et al:   We, too, have a long-running problem with our people wanting to participate in friendly chat, but the person who set the worst example for us all is no longer with us. He has gone to bless anothe group in another state with his pastoral presence. <grins>   So, some of our people thought it might be good if we went back to collecting ourselves in a meditative mindset prior to the formal activities of our worship service. One of our ministers comes to present announcements from the pulpit and gets the people into a listening mode. As he finishes, he then invites us all to enter into prayer that we might all feel the closeness of His Spirit. The organist begins the prelude music, and she is overjoyed that she can now play some of the softer stops on the organ and people can actually hear these pretty sounds.   However, on the days that our orchestra plays, it is very difficult to get the quietness because the players continue to "warm up" and tune their instruments or chat among themselves.   F. Richard Burt     ..      
(back) Subject: Organs and organists online updated From: "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 15:19:52 +0300   Several new files have been added to the downloads section of http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com/ including Jonathan Orwig=92s =93adagio=94 from his Christmas Suite played by Hermann Jardin at ND de = Laeken, Brussels, Gregory Cuervorst=92s and my house organs. Michael Dudman = playing the first movement of the Widor Vth at the Degens and Rippin organ in St Mary of Eton, London, E9, and Gregory Cuervorst playing the Adagio at the Aeolian-Skinner organ in Alice Millar Chapel, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. We have started the =93residence=94 section of =93organs = of interest=94 with specifications and details of 4 organs to the site, 2 = pipe and 2 digital : Roger Brown=92s in Melbourne, Gregory Cuervorst=92s in = Illinois, Tim Grenz=92s and mine. We have also begun the =93Scores=94 section with = =93Fanfare on a Theme by Beethoven=94 for Organ by Robert Ehrhardt. You can download = the music and listen to it on =93Midi=94. There is quite a lot of =93work in progress=94, including the organs of = Norway, the Mormon Tabernacle organ, and all the other countries not yet started = on, as well as more =93residence=94 organs. Would anyone like to offer the remaining movements of the Widor? Particularly the delightful second movement and the inevitable fifth! We have had 1725 hits in the four weeks we have been on line, and some very nice comments in the guest book. = Thank you for your support =96 most contributors to the site are members of pipechat. John Foss      
(back) Subject: Re: Orthodox Presbyterian Church From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 08:52:47 -0400   On 7/6/04 6:45 PM, "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> wrote:   > I know, I know - 1801 Articles of Religion, Section XXVI. Excuse me for > the lapse, but it wasn't on WestLaw. > It's a clear theological point in Romanism and Lutheranism as well. Has = to be. Goes WAY back (4th? Century).   Alan    
(back) Subject: Estey residence organs From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:12:02 -0400   Hi Phil, as you probably already know, there exists a rebuilt Estey = player organ in the present Elks Lodge in Brattleboro, Vermont, which was originally the residence of ?Jacob Estey on Putney Rd. Originally Opus 1129 of 1913, it was rebuilt by Estey in 1944, Opus 3151 using the original pipes and blower. It contains 863 pipes. The player mechanism was removed at that time. It is highly decorated, and served as a demo. for Henry Ford who came to hear it and purchase a similar instrument.   Judy Ollikkala  
(back) Subject: Re: Firestorm From: "Steve Chandler" <stevec@open-tech.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 08:35:45 -0500   Hi Craig,   I'm replying privately to avoid being off topic.   If you want to get political, as others have posted, Pipechat is not the place. However there exists the Yahoo Group Organists Off Topic, this group was founded with the intent of fostering poilitical discussion. However, as anywhere free speech reigns, there is a diversity of opinion. Here's a link;   http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/   Cheers,   Steve Chandler    
(back) Subject: Re: Re: canned music and righteous indignation From: <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:46:28 +0000   Like others, CD's are not used in our church, but exceptions have been = made on occasion. These exceptions have been for weddings, and also the = occasional solo by a youth on special occasions (like Youth Sunday, or = recognition of Graduation, or Confirmation.)   I'm not even really allowed to use choral accompaniment tracks.   Regards, Jeff    
(back) Subject: Eucharist vs. homiletics From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:50:42 -0400   on 7/6/04 6:45 PM, Glenda at gksjd85@direcway.com wrote:   > > One point about Amazing Grace - the rubrics (using that term loosely) of > the Episcopal Church state that the Eucharist is not nullified just > because it is administered by an unworthy (again, term used loosely) > priest (of course I am paraphrasing, but I'm getting ready for two days > of court and can't remember the exact verbiage, and have not the time to > look it up while prepping witnesses over the phone). In an analogous > vein, I believe God works his will through and in spite of the righteous > and unrighteous, Christian and non-Christian, angels and demons. > Although Amazing Grace is far from my favorite hymn, I do not discount > its message because it came from the hand of a slave-trader.   But if we're talking about message, then wouldn't the analogy be to giving = a sermon rather than administering the Eucharist? Sure, the Eucharist administered by an unworthy priest is still valid, but what about a sermon based on an unworthy theology? It's a difference between vessel and content. The administration of the Eucharist is a vessel, while a sermon = is content. It gets complicated in the case of a hymn, since the music is a vessel while the text is content. Incidentally, I wonder how much of the emotional response to Amazing Grace is based on New Britain as opposed to Newton.   Of course, the point remains to be proved that said theology is unworthy, and I don't think I will have much luck in persuading anyone that it is. Nor, really, is this the forum in which to attempt it. But if for the sake of argument we could posit that it was, it would be an interesting conundrum, no?     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu      
(back) Subject: Righteous indignation! From: "Margo Dillard" <dillardm@airmail.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:53:52 -0500   I begin to believe that the organists are the only people left in Christendom who remember that worship is supposed to be directed to GOD. Furthermore, it is a corporate offering TO GOD. More and more of our worship styles are about sitting back and relaxing and listening to some pretty songs and some talking about God - but let's not get too intellectually or spiritually taxing - wouldn't want to strain anything. What happened to "reverence" - what happened to sacrifice of our time and talents as well as our money - what happened to offering our best, which means putting forth some effort and preparation. And if your personal best happens to involve classical music or any area of the arts requiring advanced training or "intellectualism", etc., etc. - then you are "elitist" and not acceptable to modern worship. Apparently, we are expected to participate and tolerate styles of music that are not to our taste, but mustn't impose upon them with Bach and such that are not to theirs - no, no.   Excuse me for ranting. This is a hot-button subject right now. Among other things, this very subject is also under discussion for the past week on another list - where I have been flamed both publicly and privately as "elitist", "rude", and "unChristian" for daring to suggest that people who lead music might need some training in music. The prevailing opinion seems to be that the only music acceptable to God is that offered by volunteers with limited or no training, and if you went out and got a degree (God-forbid), or even worse, get paid for your services, then God does not like it, the congregation is incapable of worshipping with it, you should just stay in the classroom and concert hall and leave the churches to be run by the "Christians".   AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!! I think I will get my shoes and my scores and go find a monastery somewhere that hasn't had any contact with the outside world for, oh, say the last 50 years.....   There - I've vented. Why don't I feel better....   Margo     -- Dr. Margo Dillard Organist, FUMC, Lewisville, TX Musical Feast Choral Society Dillard Piano & Organ Studio    
(back) Subject: Re: canned music and righteous indignation From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:07:50 -0400   On 7/6/04 9:53 PM, "tom carter" <tcarter215@yahoo.com> wrote:   > What are your opinions on the use of CDs in place of live music in = church not > only 'accompaniment' tracks for soloists, but prelude, postlude and = other > instrumental music in spite of the presence of a trained, talented = musician? > If you've run into this in your own jobs or places of worship, how have = you > presented the case for the genuine article?   Tom: I have earned some intergalactic notoriety for being pig-headed on this subject.  
(back) Subject: Re: canned music and righteous indignation From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:09:52 -0400   On 7/7/04 10:07 AM, "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> wrote:   > On 7/6/04 9:53 PM, "tom carter" <tcarter215@yahoo.com> wrote: >=20 >> What are your opinions on the use of CDs in place of live music in churc= h not >> only 'accompaniment' tracks for soloists, but prelude, postlude and othe= r >> instrumental music in spite of the presence of a trained, talented music= ian? >> If you've run into this in your own jobs or places of worship, how have = you >> presented the case for the genuine article? >=20 > Tom: I have earned some intergalactic notoriety for being pig-headed on = this > subject. =20   Oops. Blew it.   Anyway: I wrote something on that subject a few months back that got some favorable notice. I=B9ll send it to you off list.   Alan  
(back) Subject: Re: canned music and righteous indignation From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:19:46 -0400   On 7/6/04 9:59 PM, "Innkawgneeto@cs.com" <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> wrote:   > if a soloist prefers to use a tape or CD because he/she has practiced wit= h it, > I don't have a problem with that. >=20 I don=B9t have any problem either=8Bwith his/her PRACTICING with it. But for worship, everything is live. Also called =B3real.=B2   Alan  
(back) Subject: Re: canned music and righteous indignation From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 10:40:08 -0400   On 7/6/04 10:13 PM, "Gfc234@aol.com" <Gfc234@aol.com> wrote:   Gregory: Thanks very much for that Canadian statement. Similar to my = own, but FAR better.   Alan  
(back) Subject: Re: canned music From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 07:47:28 -0700   There is a theological problem here.   Scripture says, "How shall I offer unto the Lord that which costs me nothing?"   Yes, yes, I know ... you pay for the CD and the sound system to play it and the electricity to run it ... but that's still not the same as LIVE bodies IN THE CHURCH offering the fruits of their labours.   If your church doesn't have the space or money for an orchestra, God understands; I'm sure He doesn't care.   Remember the Parable of the Widow's Mite.   In liturgical churches we speak of "DOING" or "OFFERING" the Eucharist, the "Great Thanksgiving" ... it's no accident that canned music is banned in MOST liturgical churches ... Roman Catholic (since around 1900, when the phonograph appeared), Anglican, and Lutheran.   "This our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving" can only be accomplished by PEOPLE, LIVE people.   I am reminded of an old sci-fi story in which the people of Earth construct robots to fight Armageddon FOR them. The battle is fought; Good wins; but when God comes, He takes the ROBOTS to heaven, not the PEOPLE.   True worship cannot be accomplished mechanically or electronically. Only live people will do. And if we take music serious AS worship, then WE must do it, not the CD player.   Over the years, I have been roundly criticized by some for composing and arranging a large body of music for the AVERAGE choir, the AVERAGE organist, the AVERAGE organ, and the AVERAGE church.   "It's not (here insert your favorite composer) ..."   No, it isn't; but it's good, workmanlike music that sounds well with AVERAGE forces -- a volunteer choir with voices of limited range, and an organist with limited skills, playing a small organ.   Anglicans in particular are guilty of over-reaching themselves, forgetting that the MAJORITY of what we call "The Anglican Repertoire" was written for PROFESSIONAL choirs in cathedrals and collegiate churches with paid choral establishments. Novello DID issue a large body of music for parish churches, but most of it is out of print and = forgotten.   It shouldn't be necessary to state that it is better to do simple music, and do it WELL. Taking the Crystal Cathedral for a model is fine, if you have a choir of 100, a five-manual pipe organ, and a church that seats 3000 or more. But most of us DON'T.   The REAL test of a musician is being able to make MUSIC with LIMITED forces.   That same argument applies to small pipe organs as opposed to large electronics, by the way.   Cheers,   Bud       Alan Freed wrote:   > On 7/6/04 9:59 PM, "Innkawgneeto@cs.com" <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> wrote: > > if a soloist prefers to use a tape or CD because he/she has > practiced with it, I don't have a problem with that. > > > I don=92t have any problem either=97with his/her PRACTICING with it. = But > for worship, everything is live. Also called =93real.=94 > > Alan      
(back) Subject: People who have the unmitigated gall to chat and chatter while I am playing the organ... From: "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 09:42:00 -0700   Obviously (from my subject line), I have mixed feelings about this topic ...   While I am happiest when everyone is sitting in hushed reverence -- politely silent during my musical labors, their bosoms heaving heavily upon every solace-laden note -- this is not usually the case. Especially the postlude.   For many people, especially older folks, their one time a week at church is the ONLY time they have to see friends, family and fellow parishioners. So, yes, they do tend to "visit."   Frankly, I'm just glad they're there. Better to have a full church of chit-chatters than to have the place nearly empty as is far too often the case.   That having been said, the pastor at my "early" church changed the opening part of the service in a a way that has neatly solved the problem.   Here's an example of how the beginning of the liturgy is laid out in the Service Folder [apparently we don't call them "bulletins" anymore!] :   [bracketed comments are commentary - do not actually appear in the bulle- er, service folder!!]   ----------------------------------------------   July 11, 2004 . . . 6th Sunday After Pentecost   WELCOME to Faith Lutheran Church. Before the service, speak to God. During the service, let God speak to you. After the service, speak to one another.   PRE-SERVICE MUSIC . . . Charlie Lester, Organist [a verse of a familiar hymn]   CHIMES ["Westminster Chimes" then tolls the 9:00 hour-- more on that below]   CALL TO WORSHIP . . . . . Faith Victory Choir [or a short congregational hymn - it varies]   [SPOKEN] GREETING . . . . . Diddley Squat, Liturgist "As we begin our service, please meditate quietly during the organ prelude, allowing your hearts and minds to focus on worship.   ORGAN PRELUDE . . . . . . Mr. Lester [something worth listening to!]   OPENING HYMN [may or may not be a processional]   ----------------------------------------------   I come down to the sacristy around 10 to 9, gathering the choir, pastor and liturgists together, and we have a brief word of prayer. Different people lead the prayer - sometimes the pastor, sometimes a liturgist, sometimes a choir member, sometimes me. This REALLY helps the "worship team" get prepared and focused.   I then go up to the organ loft and play a verse of a hymn - not necessarily "soft and ethereal" - it depends on the service. Whatever I play, I time it so it's over at 15-30 seconds before 9 a.m.   Then I play the "Westminster Chimes" dong-ding-dang-dung, dung-dang-ding-dong, ding-dang-dong-dung, dung-dang-ding-dong and then 9 tolls for the hour.   The choir is waiting in the "ante-room" between the sanctuary and the sacristry (I don't know what the official name for the room is, but I am sure there is one). When they hear the chimes, that's their cue to come out into the Chancel and stand, ready to sing the Call to Worship.   With this format, by the time we get to the prelude, people have a sense that the service has already begun -- not that it begins AFTER the prelude. Works great! People do actually listen, quietly, and I get many comments.   This has also compelled me to work a little harder on pre-service music, since people ARE listening ... no longer can I get away with "Free Improvisation on 'Three Blind Mice'" or "Fughetta on Burger King Jingle" or a sight-read (e.g. badly mangled) piece that I've never played before. Yes, guilty as charged, I'm ashamed to say.......   Oh, as to Chiming the Hour, that was my doing --- this church had gotten pretty lazy about starting on time - sometimes starting as late as 9:15! With me having to get down the road to a 2nd church, that just would no longer do.   I told the pastor that the service should begin promptly at 9 a.m. whether or not folks were ready. It took a few weeks for people to get used to the idea of timeliness -- we had Altar Guild ladies hastily trotting out with Communion accouterments during the processional hymn and acolytes running down the aisle to light the candles ... but we've gotten into the groove now and everyone is pretty much "good to go" at 9.   This has also helped ease pre-service chaos. With start-time uncertain, people had a tendency to do a lot of "blabbing" until the pastor finally wandered out and bellowed over the organ, "LET US STAND FOR THE OPENING HYMN"   Hope some of THIS blabbing may help someone's situation. Just, please, don't get TOO down on people who like to chat. It's nothing personal. They are not dissing you. They are just glad to see their friends.   If you present your side of the situation nicely and tactfully, especially doing so with the liturgy as suggested above, they will acquiesce. Willingly. Copping a resentful attitude and being mean to them will accomplish nothing but hard feelings. On both sides.   ~ C      
(back) Subject: Re: People who have the unmitigated gall to chat and chatter while I am playing the organ... From: <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:12:09 +0000   Charlie, sounds like you have a good way of handling it.   Curiously, in the "Notes on the Liturgy" in the "Lutheran Book of = Worship", it says that postludes shouldn't always be loud in order to = allow visitation after the service. My eyebrows shot up on that one. = (For those going to look, it's toward the end of the notes in the back of = the Organist's Edition.)   In our church, the prelude makes people walk in to the church. Otherwise, = they'd stand in the narthex and chatter. It also tells Pastor that we're = on the go! He comes up for announcements after I conclude.   As to the chatter...I guess I never cared. People are still walking in = during the announcements, and sometimes I think, "Hm, you just missed a = hum-dinger of a prelude." But, it's their loss!! :)   Jeff