PipeChat Digest #4606 - Saturday, July 10, 2004
 
Re: Toccatas list is growing . . .
  by "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@charter.net>
Subject: high church musicians and tongues
  by "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net>
Lead time to prepare accompaniments: what's reasonable?
  by "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com>
Re: Hammond 3-manual drawknob?
  by "bgsx" <bgsx52@sympatico.ca>
Hammond Purists
  by "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com>
Re: Lead time to prepare accompaniments: what's reasonable?
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
RE: Subject: high church musicians and tongues
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: new 3m  Hammond drawknob model
  by "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net>
Re: HELP! Learning High Church musicianship (Anglo-Cath, Epis)
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
Re: Amazing Grace
  by <Steskinner@aol.com>
Re: 3 manual Hammond
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Amazing Grace
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Postludes and the last hymn.
  by <ProOrgo53@aol.com>
Re: Lead time to prepare accompaniments: what's reasonable?
  by <ProOrgo53@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Toccatas list is growing . . . From: "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@charter.net> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:26:26 -0500   Hi Dale Thanks for pointing this out. The Toccata you mention is actually the = closing movement of the Barnes Symphonie pour orgue, and is a fantastic = piece. I just wanted to correct that ORGANLive is found at = http://www.organlive.com, and is still free for all who want to listen. = The main site has been updated so not only can you find out what's = playing now, but see what the last few tracks were, what's coming up, = and how many people are tuned in. All just part of the interactive fun.   We're hoping in the next few days that everyone will be able to search = the entire library of music and make (almost) instant requests right = from the website. Still one lingering bug to work out, but I hope it's = running by next week.   Thanks again. Brent Johnson ORGANLive - Music of the organ on demand http://www.organlive.com   ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ProOrgo53@aol.com=20 To: PIPORG-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU ; pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Friday, July 09, 2004 5:44 PM Subject: Toccatas list is growing . . .     Many thanks to OrganistBrent@aol.com !=20   His Internet Broadcast www.ORGANlive365 is presenting "Toccata sur un = theme gregorienne" by Edward Shippen Barnes - from a Pro Organo CD = (May, 2002) performed, with considerable energy and precision by = organist Simon Nieminski. The CD is titled=20 Organ Symphonies of Edward Shippen Barnes. =20   Bravo - another Toccata to add to our growing list!   Dale Rider Inidependence, MO    
(back) Subject: Subject: high church musicians and tongues From: "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:49:43 -0400   I heard of one of our local pastors having a little "slip" of the tongue during a sermon. In the Scripture passage, there was something about someone either "saddling his ass [to do something]" or maybe "he got off = his ass [to do something]". Of course, we know the Scripture was speaking of the person getting off his donkey. Anyway, the preacher then exhorted his congregation "It's time some of us got off our asses and ..." then he suddenly stopped and said, "I can't believe I just said that". Apparently the congregation of this small country Southern Baptist Church thought it was hilarious. It's one of those times when you make an analogy and find out the the analogy can be taken another way.   Keith      
(back) Subject: Lead time to prepare accompaniments: what's reasonable? From: "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:54:16 -0400   Hi Chatters,   Rookie question here. This being summertime our choir is singing only once in July and once in August. The rest of the time our offertories (and occasional preludes) are performed by various vocal and instrumental soloists. I'm not the individual responsible for scheduling the = soloists--a well-qualified and well-connected member is.   What's a reasonable and customary time frame for me to be given the accompaniments in order to have time to practice them prior to either rehearsing with the soloist, or for performing them on Sunday? So far = things have gone pretty smoothly, but this week on Wednesday evening I got one I really wasn't even expecting at all, *and* the soloist expects to rehearse only for about 10 minutes immediately prior to the service Sunday. Is this type of thing something I better just get used to, or does it seem a bit compressed to you all?   I don't think I'll be able to do a very good job, and could likely do much better if I'd just had a couple more days. Something about the learning process requires time for the music to "settle in" to my brain between practice sessions, and 3-4 days doesn't feel like enough even if I = practiced 8 hours a day. Then again, I'm a relatively inexperienced accompanist, and = I also realize that by having to crash through things like this my = proficiency is bound to improve.   Emily A.    
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond 3-manual drawknob? From: "bgsx" <bgsx52@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:01:54 -0400     > Don't know how they sound live, but the MP3 Demos on content's web > site sound just fine. http://www.content-organs.com <-- with a goofy > maximizing and spawning of a second window with no forward/back/print > &c. controls.   Try this url ...   http://www.content-organs.com/Taal/Eng/Content.htm    
(back) Subject: Hammond Purists From: "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:06:10 -0700   As one who is conversant on both classical pipe organs and Hammond+Leslie, I can concur that Hammondistes do not by and large care for the sound of "Imitation Hammonds," whether they be analog, digital, MIDI or wind-blown pipes! (*)   However, that is not to say that imitation Hammonds are not in wide use, especially on the road. It's a lot easier to bring along a MIDI keyboard that weighs about 10 lbs than a B3 that weighs several hundred, plus the Leslie, plus all the space they take up. They are used by a lot of touring artists. BUT, when they really want the sound of a Hammond, that's what they get. And nothing else will do.   Imitation Hammonds sound as phony as do imitation pipe organs!   ~ C   ------- (*) A friend, showing off his pipe organ to me some years ago, showed me how he made it sound "Just Like A Hammond" by drawing all the flutes and flute mutations, adding the tremolos, pumping the swell box, and playing up an octave. I have to say, it actually sounded WORSE than any Hammond I have ever heard!!      
(back) Subject: Re: Lead time to prepare accompaniments: what's reasonable? From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 21:30:50 EDT   In a message dated 7/9/2004 7:54:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eadams@cinci.rr.com writes: What's a reasonable and customary time frame for me to be given the accompaniments in order to have time to practice them prior to either rehearsing with the soloist, or for performing them on Sunday? So far = things have gone pretty smoothly, but this week on Wednesday evening I got one I really wasn't even expecting at all, *and* the soloist expects to rehearse only for about 10 minutes immediately prior to the service Sunday. Is this type of thing something I better just get used to, or does it seem a bit compressed to you all? Maybe there is no firm answer to this question, as everyone is a their own =   level of proficiency, and what may be an easy read for one player is a = rocky road for another. I think that since YOU are the one responsible for = playing the accompaniment for these soloists and small groups YOU should be the one to =   dictate to them how far in advance you need the music. When I play for soloists at weddings, especially those with whom I have never worked, or ones who want to sing a piece I have never heard of, I = insist that they provide me with the music one month in advance of the wedding so = I have time to learn the music. So far, this policy has worked well for me. At church, our choir sings all year round, and i usually prepare the accompaniment starting about 2 weeks before the choir starts to work on = the music, so that I learn it before I need to 'teach' the music to them. (of course, = the fact that I choose the music doesn't hurt, either, and in the summer we do = a lot of very simple arrangements due to the sporadic nature of summer = attendance of both choir and congregation members.)   Rick in VA  
(back) Subject: RE: Subject: high church musicians and tongues From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 20:19:04 -0500   That made my day, Keith.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Keith Zimmerman     I heard of one of our local pastors having a little "slip" of the tongue during a sermon. In the Scripture passage, there was something about someone either "saddling his ass [to do something]" or maybe "he got off his ass [to do something]". Of course, we know the Scripture was speaking of the person getting off his donkey. Anyway, the preacher then exhorted his congregation "It's time some of us got off our asses and ..." then he suddenly stopped and said, "I can't believe I just said that". Apparently the congregation of this small country Southern Baptist Church thought it was hilarious. It's one of those times when you make an analogy and find out the the analogy can be taken another way.        
(back) Subject: Re: new 3m Hammond drawknob model From: "Walter Greenwood" <walterg@nauticom.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:56:32 -0400   Might want to check the facts on this. You are absolutely right about the XB-3, but the XB-3 is 10-year-old news. The goods in 2004 are the XK-3 and the new B-3, and they are spectacular. The new B-3 even has 9 contacts under each key so the pitches attack separately just like the original. A lot of very real and very professional Hammond players love the new digital Hammonds - even those who don't get paid to say so. The original tonewheel generator was not at all a simple thing to make - nowdays it would cost a fortune.   -WG     Bud wrote:   > why on earth don't they simply bring the TONEWHEELER B-3 back into > production? They're simple to make, and that's what people WANT. The > digitally sampled XB-3 is NOT the same as a tonewheeler, trust me > (grin), and REAL Hammond players are having NONE of them. Vintage B-3s > in good condition cost more NOW than they did NEW, at least in some > parts of the country, particularly with a TUBE Leslie included.          
(back) Subject: Re: HELP! Learning High Church musicianship (Anglo-Cath, Epis) From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 21:47:21 -0500   T.Desiree' Hines wrote:   > Hi list > Well thanks to Bill G. From St Johns Bowdoin St for being a good > online mentor to me. > BUD i need your help too!!!! and anyone else who can point me where to > learn how to be a damned good high-church musician.   Personally, Desire=E9, I would find it helpful for you to restate the question without using the phrase "high church musician, because it is my personal experience and observation that this means different things to different people.   I have the impression from your post that you somehow equate choral music to high churchmanship. While it is true that high churchmanship has a special affinity for choirs, choral music and high churchmanship are not linked quite the way I infer from your post that you seem to think they are. For example, there are three different parishes, a few miles apart on Chicago's North Side: Church of the Ascension, and the Moody Church, both on N. LaSalle, and St. Luke's Lutheran Church on Belmont near Ashland. I have heard (on separate occasions and by separate people) all three referred to as "high church", and if one accepts a definition that "high church" is a relative term, based upon an appreciation for formality structure in worship, and an appreciation for an orderly ceremonial, in the mind of the vaious speakers I heard refer to these congregations, they all deserve the appellation, but the term has very differences of meaning because of the differences between the three congregations faith and practice.   For learning more about high churchmanship from a faith and practice standpoint, I would recommend two books. One, in fact, is titled "Faith and Practice". The book, an "old standard", was written by Frank Wilson more than a half century ago, and while there are bits of it that are rather dated, it is, on the whole, a good starting point for what is involved in "high churchmanship", at least as far as it applies to liturgical groups in the U.S. today. A cursory review of the ABEbooks website showed a number of copies available used and very reasonable prices.   A second book I would recommend is a companion volume produced in connection with the Lutheran Book of Worship about 20 years ago, entitled "The Lutheran Book of Worship - Manual on the Liturgy". The authors were Messerli and Pfatteicher, and I believe the book is still in print, if a bit pricey. I has an admittedly Lutheran perspective in a lot of things, but as a good summary history of various parts of liturgical churchmanship is concerned it is hard to beat. The book is more "high-church" than most Lutheran Congregations are.   A third book I would recommend is Thompson's "Liturgies of the Western Church". This is a good history of how the liturgy in the Roman Catholic, and various Protestant churches came to be the way they were, the book has been around for at least 30 years, and is probably not up to the minute on some of the most recent developments, even in liturgical churches, but it is a volume that is, in my opinion, indispensible for a church musician serving in a liturgical (and I would go so far in this particular instance of including most Reformed - Presbyterians, &c.- and Methodists in this category in this particular case) environment.   As to learning to work with choirs, do a good job in getting a good grounding in music, and you should be able to pick up what you need. And I wouldn't be so quick to write off "elemenary music education" curricula. For many church musicians, the best way to get to work with a really good choir is to develop one in the parish they serve.   Now, in reaching the position you eventually aspire to, you will need to accompany a significant amount of choral music. The best preparation for this is knowing organ literature inside out. The best preparation for learning to accompany an anthem or service by Durufl=E9, Howells, Parry, Reger, or Stanford, is mastery of the organ literature of Durufl=E9, Howells, Parry, Reger, or Stanford.   ns    
(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 23:35:42 EDT   In a message dated 7/9/2004 8:38:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, runyonr@muohio.edu writes: The problem I see is with a doctrine of grace that allows one to continue to trade in slaves. What = good does such a doctrine do other than the dubious one of making people = believe that they're saved? It didn't do much for the slaves. Randy, That is precisely the problem with grace. Grace is a non-equitable favor bestowed upon a unworthy recipient. One can be saved while still in sin, = but there is no commendation from God. Sanctification, the process of becoming = wholly holy, is a process that is beautifully illustrated in the life of John = Newton. While the doctrine of Grace may not have changed the earthly circumstances = of the slaves, to say "it didn't do much for the slaves" is not quite = accurate. Our richer understanding of the doctrine of grace has come about because = of the nearly incredible contribution to practical theology of slaves who understood the doctrine far better than most!   I like to use a B/F# chord on the second measure of "New Britain" (in the = key of G) with full organ chords crashing in on beat 2 of the first couple of measures.  
(back) Subject: Re: 3 manual Hammond From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 01:28:52 EDT   >Hammond/Suzuki's Classic Organs are made by Content (elpro, in Holland) = .. I believe this >one is identical to the Content D6800.   I had the opportunity to play the smaller 3 manual rocker tab = Hammond-Suzuki organ about 2 months ago for a large service in which the organ was = rented and brought to the Charlotte Convention Center. The organ was not = pleasant at all. First of all, the organ is not built to AGO standards, which I understood, being built by a European company, but since it is marketed = to the USA, it should be built to AGO standards. In my opinion, the samples are not nearly up the quality of Allen or Rodgers, not even remotely close to = Walker, Marshall-Ogletree, or Musicom, or even Church Organ Systems. The worst = part of the model I played was that there was no Crescendo pedal and that the = Swell, Great and Choir pedals were in the wrong places. I didn't enjoy playing = the organ at all. As to tonewheel Hammonds, there is no comparison. The "new" digital Hammonds, don't even compare. They are harsh and sterile compared to = "real" Hammonds. If you want a real Hammond sound, a tonewheel is the only way = to go. Having purchased one (a B3) for my house and also having recently picked = out one for my church, I played many different ones until I found the ones that = had the right sound that I wanted. The wear of the capacitors and tubes = gives each one a unique sound. It's an interesting sonic experience to compare =   different tonewheel Hammonds side by side and hear the differences. Anyway, I think that Hammond shouldn't bother trying to get into the classical organ market. It's not a name that people associate with classical music. Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: Amazing Grace From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:06:08 +0800   It would seem to me that, though John Newton may have written the hymn = in question, he is not the person singing it. Surely the important = factor is WHO is singing it and whether they are sincere in what they = are singing.=20   Newton died a very long time ago. Perhaps we should rejoice that he left = us such hymns as Glorious things of Thee are spoken, May the grace of = Christ my Saviour, and How sweet the name of Jesus sounds, to just name = some of the most commonly sung of his hymns. Who are we to judge him? Bob Elms.     ----- Original Message -----=20   In a message dated 7/9/2004 8:38:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, = runyonr@muohio.edu writes: The problem I see is with a doctrine of grace that allows one to continue to trade in slaves. = What good does such a doctrine do other than the dubious one of making people = believe that they're saved? It didn't do much for the slaves.
(back) Subject: Re: Postludes and the last hymn. From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:01:14 EDT   In a message dated 7/9/2004 7:32:28 AM Central Daylight Time, bobelms@westnet.com.au writes: The congregation here gets through the first two verses, by which time the =   procession has gone through the sacristy door. They then close the hymn = book and make for the door! Maybe three or four stay to listen to the postlude. 'Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.'   Latter Day Saints will recognize the source of this phrase and thought. So =   will the discerning of whatever origin.  
(back) Subject: Re: Lead time to prepare accompaniments: what's reasonable? From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:08:30 EDT   In a message dated 7/9/2004 6:54:49 PM Central Daylight Time, eadams@cinci.rr.com writes: Something about the learning process requires time for the music to "settle in" to my brain between practice sessions, and 3-4 days doesn't feel like enough even if I = practiced 8 hours a day. Then again, I'm a relatively inexperienced accompanist, and = I also realize that by having to crash through things like this my = proficiency is bound to improve.   Emily A. Not necessarily, Emily. If 10 minutes is all this singer can devote to leading others (and him/herself) in worshipping Almighty GOD, perhaps the = privilege should be offered to someone more keen (and interested) in presenting a "sacrifice of praise." ?