PipeChat Digest #4612 - Tuesday, July 13, 2004
 
a couple of notes from Bud
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
RE: Rational Argument (x posted)  WITH GUIDELINES
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
Re: RE: Rational Argument (x posted)  WITH GUIDELINES
  by <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: RE: Rational Argument (x posted)  WITH GUIDELINES
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
Re: new 3m  Hammond drawknob model
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
Re: Rational Argument  WITH GUIDELINES
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Hammond 3-manual drawknob?
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Re: RE: Rational Argument (x posted)  WITH GUIDELINES
  by "Scott" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Moller vs Electronic
  by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net>
Re: Moller vs Electronic
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Hammond 3-manual drawknob?
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Want Ads for "Keyboard" players
  by <RVScara@aol.com>
RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Want Ads for "Keyboard" players
  by <RVScara@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: a couple of notes from Bud From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:40:05 -0700   Some people have suggested that I'm not asking a large enough donation for the CD. I didn't ask for more because virtually ALL of this music WAS written for the SMALL church and the SMALL choir ... I didn't want to put it beyond their reach.   Those who have generous music budgets are most welcome to donate more <g>, but I suspect in a lot of the smaller churches the organist/choirmaster is paying for the CD out of his/her own pocket.   PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE include your E-MAIL address in all SNAIL MAIL orders and correspondence. I have received several checks from churches with notes in which the organist signed only his/her first name and didn't give an e-mail address. I want to write thank-you notes, but I have no way of finding first names in my mailing list.   A couple of notes about the CD: the SAB anthems are the texts of the proper Offertories and Communions for the Church Year, so you will find them under "Propers" under the various seasons, rather than under = "Anthems."   There are TWO "Propers" folders, for reasons I won't go into <g> ... MOST everything is in the FIRST one ... if you find some things missing early in Trinitytide, look in the second one.   The folder marked "Andy" contains mostly Graduals, Gradual Psalms and Alleluias for the current Lutheran Church Missouri Synod texts contained in "Lutheran Worship."   If for any reason you have difficulty opening Sibelius files with Scorch, please let me know and I will produce a second CD with EVERYTHING converted to PDFs.       Strictly voluntary donations:       CHECK OR MONEY ORDER:       Raymond H. Clark 2616 University Ave. San Diego CA 92104-2810       OR       PAYPAL:       beejayusa@cox.net (the family PayPal account)       Cheers,       Bud      
(back) Subject: RE: Rational Argument (x posted) WITH GUIDELINES From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:47:02 -0500   Arie,=20   Your following statement confirms exactly my (perhaps poorly-stated) contention that if a large pipe organ is overwhelming (spatially) in a room, then a digital organ of equivalent size will also be overwhelming (aurally) in that same room. If the room is small, then people will naturally expect to hear an organ of appropriate size in that room.   Thanks for your insight. =20   Timothy Daniel Hancock   Dean, Springfield AGO Chapter Organist, Grace United Methodist Church Organist, St. Agnes Cathedral Church (417) 521-6148 or dhancock@brpae.com       -----Original Message----- From: Arie Vandenberg [mailto:ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 1:41 PM To: PipeChat Subject: RE: Rational Argument (x posted) WITH GUIDELINES   If you want an electronic organ to sound good in a small church, just think=20 what size pipe organ you would put in there. If a 15 stop pipe organ is   satisfactory in a room, why would you put in a 60 stop digital, with=20 artificial reverb and 2 or 3 32' stops. You are then moving quickly away   from your model or the ideal.   In any case, whether pipe or electronic make sure the setup and voicing is=20 done correctly.   Cheers,   Arie V.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263=20      
(back) Subject: Re: RE: Rational Argument (x posted) WITH GUIDELINES From: <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:51:26 +0000   >If there isn't room for a cathedral-sized organ, should we install a = digital instrument that sounds like one?   Good point, Tim! However, since digital instruments can literally be = voiced even moreso than a pipe could ever be, then I'd rely on the voicer = and installer to make sure that it's not cathedral sound, but fits the = room nicely. However, there's something to be said about variety of tone = colors to choose from. Not so much "How Big", but "how different can I = be?" :) (And as before, I'd expect the same from a pipe organ as well) :)   Jeff      
(back) Subject: RE: RE: Rational Argument (x posted) WITH GUIDELINES From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:58:14 -0500   >However, there's something to be said about variety of tone colors to = choose from. =20   Sure--isn't that why we play the organ? But some of my most = satisfactory musical experiences have come not from playing huge pipe = organs with everything included, but small, well-voiced pipe organs that = might not have everything, but exist in acoustically resonant spaces = with versatile if limited specifications. That's where having to be = creative makes it exciting for me, and is why I think I'd rather have a = fine if limited pipe organ over a digital with everything. This said = realizing the instrument I play regularly isn't too small....:)   Timothy Daniel Hancock=A0 (417) 521-6148 or dhancock@brpae.com      
(back) Subject: Re: new 3m Hammond drawknob model From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:03:39 EDT   My sister had a friend who wanted to sell her a B3 after the friend's = husband (the organist) died. She wanted very little for it, but, instead of = buying it, my sister had Keith go with her to estimate the value. It was in mint =   condition, tube leslie and all. Of course, Keith was delighted to see one = in this condition and told the woman it was a very nice instrument, but did not = tell her the value. In the meantime, she decided not to sell it, since it was "very nice." My sister ended up getting an old Baldwin with AGO pedals, = but with non setable presets, accompaniment stops, solo stops, and all the keys = don't work. This is really strange, as she could afford to buy a new Allen, if = she wanted. Keith advised her not to get the Baldwin, but she only paid $100 = for it, and felt she could get that much fun from it. After Keith played what =   worked on it, he made it sound good. So, my sister is happy with it, = learning the Little Preludes and Fugues again, after many years since she was a church organist. Lee  
(back) Subject: Re: Rational Argument WITH GUIDELINES From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:12:57 EDT   Shirley wrote: >Here's their thinking at the moment: > 1. The Moller is so installed that parts of it cannot be accessed, = hence the > term "impacted". >2. The price tag. For what it will take to bring the instrument back = to its >1960's glorious self (including screechy mixtures), they could purchase = a >decent, bigger-sounding digital. >3. Service - While there is a lot of mechanical stuff that can go wrong = in >the pipe organ, there is minimal mechanical stuff in a digital. I know that we all would PREFER to play a pipe organ there are times when =   digitals have there benefits. HOWEVER, it always pains me when a pipe = organ is replaced with a digital when there are salvageable parts of the pipe = organ that can be reused and they just get tossed out on the organist's latest = whim. In this case, we don't know all the facts, except that the Moller does = need to be releathered. What other work needs to be done? Is there room for = the organ to be moved around so that it can be taken out of chambers and = freed from it's impacted state? How many ranks is the organ? I like Scott Montgomery's idea of using what is good from the organ and incorporating it into a new instrument. I was going to suggest the same = thing. There has to be some good pipe work that could be rescaled and revoiced, = as well as things like swell shades that could be reused. Moller consoles = are always solid, why not keep the shell and retofit it with solid state = components and save some money on all the woodwork. If the church wants to use some digital voices for 32's, a solo Trumpet, = and some special effects like Harp/Chimes/Celesta, fine, but to replace a = pipe organ with a digital just to avoid standard maintenance procedures on a = 40+ year old EP instrument, seems like a weak argument to me. If this was a = new building and there was no room for the organ to be installed, no money for = more than 3 ranks of pipes, or no money for upkeep of the organ, I would be = more inclined to be accepting of a digital, but none of the above applies. = Keep the pipes, use the best pipework, incorporate it into a new organ, = retrofit the existing console, and you'll have a new organ that will last. The new organ man should be able to give you some suggestions as to what can be = done. Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond 3-manual drawknob? From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:22:05 -0400   At 04:56 AM 2004-07-10 +0800, you wrote:   >Hammond/Suzuki's Classic Organs are made by Content (elpro, in Holland) >... I believe this one is identical to the Content D6800. >Don't know how they sound live, but the MP3 Demos on content's web site >sound just fine. >http://www.content-organs.com <-- with a goofy maximizing and spawning of =   >a second window with no forward/back/print &c. controls. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> >Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 16:18:43 -0400 >To: pipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> >Subject: Hammond 3-manual drawknob? > > > Hey Bud - > > > > Is this what you played at the Shrine to Father Scarlet? > > > > http://www.hammondorganco.com/product_set2.htm > > > > Wonder how the thing sounds..... > > > > --Shirley > >-- >Jan Nijhuis >nijhuis@email.com   Hello all.   I am coming to this a little late as I was on holidays. While it is true that the Classical organs that Hammond has in their line-up were built by Content in Holland, I have heard that this association is no longer, and that only what is left in the warehouse can still be had. They never did bring in the 3 manual drawstop console. They just prematurely put it on the web-site.   As to the Content organ, for the most part they build for the bottom end = of the market. I'm not sure what kind of technology they use to make the sounds, but to me it sounds like some kind of synthesis, either that or primitive sampling. The ones I have heard almost sound like analog organs. The installs I have heard in S. Ontario leave a whole lot to be desired.   As to the demo sounds on the web-site, just remember that it is putting their best foot forward, in other words they take an organ finesse it best =   they can, hook it up to the best audio, take it to a church with a huge reverberation ( there are lots of those in Holland within easy driving distance), get a good organist to play it and record it. In most cases = the sound will be respectable at the least. Still to me the sounds they have on their web site sound like that of an electronic organ.   Their build quality is much like the rest of what comes out of Holland by the bigger manufacturers.   Cheers,   Arie V.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263      
(back) Subject: Re: RE: Rational Argument (x posted) WITH GUIDELINES From: "Scott" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:22:26 -0500   I agree with the big digital in a small space. If you voice a huge 3 = manual so that it will fit in a room of 100-200 people, how happy are you going = to be with the 8' Principal? It will be so small, and even to get that big sound even from just a simple plenum, you will probably have to couple all division to feel somewhat happy.   Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St. Champaign, IL 61820 217.390.0158 www.scottmontgomerymusic.net    
(back) Subject: Moller vs Electronic From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:00:18 -0700   Shirley, If the pipes are in good condition, it's quite possible they can be revoiced & moved around to change scales, etc. There's a Moller in an Episcopal church in Florida that was revoiced and has been receiving rave reviews, including recordings of the complete works of Dupre.   As someone else suggested, replace the chests; and use slider chests (yes it can be done!) Try to get a committee to an organ that's been "rejuventated/renovated" so they can experience the possibilities.   As Arie said, the electronic instuments will always be in a state of improving. Have them think about how rapidly computers become outdated. Is that the legacy they want to leave to the members who come after them?   Ask them if they are willing to use imitation or fast food products for the eucharistic elements, use nothing but imitation flowers, or use an altar made entirely of cheaper veneered materials. If they are, then let them have the electronic ...they deserve it.    
(back) Subject: Re: Moller vs Electronic From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:12:48 EDT   and ask if there are enough pipes to make it worthwhile for both the = liturgy and every use of the organ.   dale in florida  
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond 3-manual drawknob? From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:14:20 EDT   In a message dated 7/13/2004 3:20:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com writes:   > Hammond/Suzuki's Classic Organs are made by Content (elpro, in Holland) > >... I believe this one is identical to the Content D6800. >   WHICH HAMMOND is no longer selling and they have fired all the reps that = were involved......hmmmmmm maybe people want a Hammond to be a Hammond.   To many good toasters to do that.....   dale in Florida but looking for spare parts to be aimed my way  
(back) Subject: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:14:43 -0700 (PDT)   Here we go... My church is getting proposals for a digital installation at the end of = this week. Why? The current organ in the last few weeks is still showing signs of ware. = Are we going to save any of the pipe work to later add to the digital? = Yes. As a matter of fact...we will not get rid of the pipe organ. After = meeting with the priest and discussing things, he's grown tired of going = into the organ to clear cyphers every other week. The services are getting = BIGGER and the people are singing more. So we are going 3 manuals with = moving stops, etc. We are looking at builders that are totally custom and = have some warm sound. A family in the church who owns a funeral home, one = of the ladies is an organist, and has said she would be interested in = donating funds for augmentation of the pipes. What would happen to the = pipes? Well we don't know yet. Why? Well, thru research with some Chicago people and the techs that were = here a while ago, Im finding out that the organ here has pipes from = Reuter, Weickhart, Johnson, Delle and a pipe shop that took over the = Hann-Wangerin-Weickhart shop in the 70's.   Think about this folks: Organ using churches want the very best. If every = church that preferred organ music had the money, they would ALL get brand = new Trackers that are suitable for the space. Its all about money. Im = noticing several pastors just don't want to ask for money for anything: we = all know what it can be like going to a money-mongering church. Its very = unpleasant, with bitchy, snobby, condescending people, who think they are = better than thou. Not very "churchly of a stream" at all. And the last = thing that pastors want to do in these hard and trying times is drive = people away from the Tie that Binds. What does one do when a church really = wants an organ bust just does not have the money for a suitable instrument = to do the job. Several churchres would love to go thru Organ Clearing house...but many = only want to buy a USED organ only if they can have it totally = restored...otherwise...you are better off not spending money at all. Why = buy an instrument that will start to give you the same problems the one = you have does? ONLY if you can afford to buy that instrument AND have it = restored. As for size of organs and number of stops...face it. We all want the = optimum versatile organ that will perform all the repertoire that we know = how to play. After a while, if you don't have what you want or need, you = will get bored and you WILL begin looking for another instrument. = (Well...some organists are apathetetic so probably would not). Having said = that, yes...there are some organs that are 35 ranks that I find more = useable than those that are 100 ranks. And yes, there are several Rodgers, = etc. organs that I have played to be way more efficient than pipe = installations. Yes...there are digital instruments that sound wonderful, and no I don't = mind playing them at all. Virgil played them, Diane Bish does, Hector = Olivera as well as many other phenominal musicians. Interestingly, those = players did/do always capture the attention of their audiences with = dropped jaws because of their flair. The Hakim's, if I recall, even did a = workshop with Allen at the Seattle AGO convention on the French Romantic = Concept they were introducing. They liked it, I heard. Results often are = a request for 2 encores if not three. When any of these people perform. = And they are not too good to play digital organs. Just my 10 dolla's worth.     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
(back) Subject: Want Ads for "Keyboard" players From: <RVScara@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:22:15 EDT   Just read the latest NPM newsletter "Positions Available" section. I counted 27 listings for Music Ministry positions at RC churches around = the country but only 8 mentioned anything about a type/make of organ. Several list = the type/make of piano and/or handbells they have and most ask for applicants =   with good keyboard skills. Only 2 listed a salary range. I know, the = newsletter only prints what is sent in but apparently about 30% of the people = writing these things feel the organ is not significant enough to mention. Am I getting paranoid or is this an indication those recruiting for these = churches really don't think an organ is that important to their liturgies. Bob Scara St Paul's RC Burlington, NJ  
(back) Subject: RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:27:45 -0500   >Think about this folks: Organ using churches want the very best. If = every church that preferred organ music had the money, they would ALL = get brand new Trackers that are suitable for the space.   While I'm sure we all want the very best, surely our conception of the = "very best" varies. I'm sure some churches would want a "Skinneresque" = organ with warm foundations and direct-electric actions. I like them = all--and would hate to have to choose one type. Probably we are all = guilty of wanting more than our budgets and rooms can accommodate.   Timothy Daniel Hancock =A0 Dean, American Guild of Organists, Springfield Chapter Organist, Grace United Methodist Church Organist, St. Agnes Cathedral Church =A0 847 South Weller Avenue Springfield, Missouri=A0 65802 417.862.6272 or dhancock@brpae.com =A0 -----Original Message----- From: T.Desiree' Hines [mailto:nicemusica@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 3:15 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital   Here we go... My church is getting proposals for=A0a digital installation at the end = of this week. Why? The current organ in the last few weeks is still showing signs of ware. = Are we going to save any of the pipe work to later add to the digital? = Yes. As a matter of fact...we will not get rid of the pipe organ. After = meeting with the priest and=A0discussing things, he's grown tired of = going into the organ to clear cyphers every other week. The services are = getting BIGGER and the people are singing more. So we are going 3 = manuals with moving stops, etc. We are looking at builders that are = totally custom and have some warm sound.=A0A family in the church who = owns a funeral home, one of the ladies is an organist, and has said she = would be interested in donating funds for augmentation of the pipes. = What would happen to the pipes? Well we don't know yet.=20 =A0 Why? Well, thru research with some Chicago people and the techs that = were here a while ago, Im finding out that the organ here has pipes from = Reuter, Weickhart, Johnson, Delle=A0and a pipe shop that took over the = Hann-Wangerin-Weickhart shop in the 70's.=20   Think about this folks: Organ using churches want the very best. If = every church that preferred organ music had the money, they would ALL = get brand new Trackers that are suitable for the space. Its all about = money. Im noticing several pastors just don't want to ask for money for = anything: we all know what it can be like going to a money-mongering = church. Its very unpleasant, with bitchy, = snobby,=A0condescending=A0people, who think they are better than thou. = Not very "churchly of a stream" at all.=A0And the last thing that = pastors want to do in these hard and trying times is drive people away = from the Tie that Binds. What does one do when a church really wants an = organ bust just does not have the money for a suitable instrument to do = the job.=20 =A0 Several churchres would love to go thru Organ Clearing house...but many = only want to buy a USED organ only if they can have it totally = restored...otherwise...you are better off not spending money at all. Why = buy an instrument that will start to give you the same problems the one = you have does? ONLY if you can afford to buy that instrument AND have it = restored.=20 =A0 As for size of organs and number of stops...face it. We all want the = optimum versatile organ that will perform all the repertoire that we = know how to play. After a while, if you don't have what you want or = need, you will get bored and you WILL begin looking for another = instrument. (Well...some organists are apathetetic so probably would = not). Having said that, yes...there are some organs that are 35 ranks = that I find more useable than those that are 100 ranks. And yes, there = are several Rodgers, etc.=A0organs that I have played to be way more = efficient than pipe installations.=20 =A0 Yes...there are digital instruments that sound wonderful, and no I don't = mind playing them at all. Virgil played them, Diane Bish does, Hector = Olivera=A0as well as many other phenominal musicians. Interestingly, = those players did/do always capture the attention of their audiences = with dropped jaws because of their flair. The=A0Hakim's, if I recall, = even did a=A0workshop with Allen at the Seattle AGO convention on = the=A0French Romantic Concept they were introducing. They liked it,=A0I = heard. =A0Results often are a request for 2 encores if not three. When = any of these people perform. And they are not too good to play digital = organs.=20 =A0 Just my 10 dolla's worth.     From Desiree'=20 T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html   Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!  
(back) Subject: RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 13:46:52 -0700 (PDT)   oh I like em all too. I played a wonderful Kilgen a few weeks ago, then played one that was = horrible. I don't think I have played a Skinner I did not like. I wished that there = were more organs with that design...in rooms so the sound would blend = more. And...I have played some trackers that were abhorable!       From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
(back) Subject: Re: Want Ads for "Keyboard" players From: <RVScara@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:51:47 EDT   Sorry, I goofed in my original message....should be " only 30% do feel = organ is significant." Never was good at proofreading my own stuff.