PipeChat Digest #4613 - Tuesday, July 13, 2004
 
RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
RE: Rational Argument (x posted)  WITH GUIDELINES
  by "Mark Koontz" <markkoontz@yahoo.com>
RE: RE: Rational Argument (x posted)  WITH GUIDELINES
  by <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital
  by "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net>
on digital organs
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
On digital organ correction
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Rational Argument mit GUIDELINES
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Big organs in small spaces
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Re: Hammond 3-manual drawknob?
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
RE: Rational Argument (x posted)  WITH GUIDELINES
  by "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net>
Re: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
ALL getting trackers?  (Was Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital)
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Rational Argument (x posted)  WITH GUIDELINES
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: on digital organs
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Rational Argument mit GUIDELINES
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Big organs in small spaces
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: Moller vs Electronic
  by <Swedish5702@aol.com>
Re: ALL getting trackers?  (Was Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital)
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:57:32 -0500   The success of any organ depends so much on so many factors, room, scaling, location of organ, location of console (if the organist can't really hear it well, how are they going to register decently?), and many others. Such a complex list of factors makes it hard to say that trackers are better than electric-action, Skinners are better than Mollers, Pipes are better than digital, etc. It's hard to compare apples to apples when the apples are drastically different. But, many types of organs for many types of needs-and it's wonderful to experience the best of them all!   =20   Daniel   =20   Timothy Daniel Hancock   =20   Dean, American Guild of Organists, Springfield Chapter   Organist, Grace United Methodist Church   Organist, St. Agnes Cathedral Church   =20   847 South Weller Avenue   Springfield, Missouri 65802   417.862.6272 or dhancock@brpae.com   =20   -----Original Message----- From: T.Desiree' Hines [mailto:nicemusica@yahoo.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 3:47 PM To: PipeChat Subject: RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital   =20   oh I like em all too.=20   I played a wonderful Kilgen a few weeks ago, then played one that was horrible.=20   I don't think I have played a Skinner I did not like. I wished that there were more organs with that design...in rooms so the sound would blend more. =20   =20   And...I have played some trackers that were abhorable!       From Desiree'=20 T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610        
(back) Subject: RE: Rational Argument (x posted) WITH GUIDELINES From: "Mark Koontz" <markkoontz@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:57:51 -0700 (PDT)   A rational argument?   As you can see from the results of this thread, there are some (many) = organists who would strongly prefer playing on a pipe organ. If your church is = seriously committed to using an organ for worship for its strategic future, it would = be rational to have the best assurance that there will be a gifted musician = who is willing to play it regularly.   I hope your church will look beyond what is expedient, and seriously = consider its values and purposes. New things can be like a sugar high, exciting at first, then the let-down. And the dreaded "politics of the lowest bidder" always seems to lurk around.   I hope your church will pause, and think, and pray. Then they will know = what best to do.   Mark Koontz    
(back) Subject: RE: RE: Rational Argument (x posted) WITH GUIDELINES From: <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:02:55 +0000   I totally agree with what you're saying here. But, I do play a small pipe = organ that is somewhat limited in the variety in what I can do, especially = with different forms of literature. Paul Bunjes designed it to be a = baroque instrument, and it's a wonderful BAROQUE instrument. It leaves = little to English or French, although it can pull it off.   That said, I couldn't agree more that it can be done. I just wish I had = some other things to draw upon. For example, I have no strings, no = celestes (flute or string) and very little choices for reeds...one in each = division. You can only use a cornet so much before tiring of it. :)   Of course, this goes beyond the discussion in the subject line. I just = hate settling simply because of the limitations of size. However, if I = had my druthers, I'd prefer pipe all the way.   Jeff   > From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> > Date: 2004/07/13 Tue PM 06:58:14 GMT > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Subject: RE: RE: Rational Argument (x posted) WITH GUIDELINES > > >However, there's something to be said about variety of tone colors to = choose from. > > Sure--isn't that why we play the organ? <snip>    
(back) Subject: Re: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:04:30 -0500   Go get those loudspeakers, girl!, and may you have many happy hours tooting them! Roy Redman   "T.Desiree' Hines" wrote:   > Here we go...My church is getting proposals for a digital installation > at the end of this week. Why?The current organ in the last few weeks > is still showing signs of ware. Are we going to save any of the pipe > work to later add to the digital? Yes. As a matter of fact...we will > not get rid of the pipe organ. After meeting with the priest and > discussing things, he's grown tired of going into the organ to clear > cyphers every other week. The services are getting BIGGER and the > people are singing more. So we are going 3 manuals with moving stops, > etc. We are looking at builders that are totally custom and have some > warm sound. A family in the church who owns a funeral home, one of the > ladies is an organist, and has said she would be interested in > donating funds for augmentation of the pipes. What would happen to the > pipes? Well we don't know yet. Why? Well, thru research with some > Chicago people and the techs that were here a while ago, Im finding > out that the organ here has pipes from Reuter, Weickhart, Johnson, > Delle and a pipe shop that took over the Hann-Wangerin-Weickhart shop > in the 70's. > Think about this folks: Organ using churches want the very best. If > every church that preferred organ music had the money, they would ALL > get brand new Trackers that are suitable for the space. Its all about > money. Im noticing several pastors just don't want to ask for money > for anything: we all know what it can be like going to a > money-mongering church. Its very unpleasant, with bitchy, snobby, > condescending people, who think they are better than thou. Not very > "churchly of a stream" at all. And the last thing that pastors want to > do in these hard and trying times is drive people away from the Tie > that Binds. What does one do when a church really wants an organ bust > just does not have the money for a suitable instrument to do the > job. Several churchres would love to go thru Organ Clearing > house...but many only want to buy a USED organ only if they can have > it totally restored...otherwise...you are better off not spending > money at all. Why buy an instrument that will start to give you the > same problems the one you have does? ONLY if you can afford to buy > that instrument AND have it restored. As for size of organs and number > of stops...face it. We all want the optimum versatile organ that will > perform all the repertoire that we know how to play. After a while, if > you don't have what you want or need, you will get bored and you WILL > begin looking for another instrument. (Well...some organists are > apathetetic so probably would not). Having said that, yes...there are > some organs that are 35 ranks that I find more useable than those that > are 100 ranks. And yes, there are several Rodgers, etc. organs that I > have played to be way more efficient than pipe > installations. Yes...there are digital instruments that sound > wonderful, and no I don't mind playing them at all. Virgil played > them, Diane Bish does, Hector Olivera as well as many other phenominal > musicians. Interestingly, those players did/do always capture the > attention of their audiences with dropped jaws because of their flair. > The Hakim's, if I recall, even did a workshop with Allen at the > Seattle AGO convention on the French Romantic Concept they were > introducing. They liked it, I heard. Results often are a request for > 2 encores if not three. When any of these people perform. And they are > not too good to play digital organs. Just my 10 dolla's worth. > > From Desiree' > T. Desiree' Hines > Chicago, IL 60610 > ---------------------------- > For Compositions by Desiree' > Frog Music Press > www.frogmusic.com > ------------------------------- > FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' > http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!  
(back) Subject: on digital organs From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:10:41 -0700 (PDT)   OK...If this funeral home woning family give me 250,000 dollars...the = first thing im doing is calling Reiger Kloss for a Tracker ! I am sitting = on two proposals submitted by them...one for a decent tracker with some = digital stops...about 25 ranks of pipes and 20 of digital for 200K and = another of 50 ranks all pipes for about 250K. All traker action with a = detached keydesk for conducting the choir! Fat chance I will get that. never know.     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
(back) Subject: On digital organ correction From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:16:54 -0700 (PDT)   The 250K organ would be 6-8 more ranks of pipes lessening the digital = stops needed. D     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
(back) Subject: Re: Rational Argument mit GUIDELINES From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:19:35 EDT   Since the decision has already been made to get a digital instrument = to replace the Moller, why not have the church give the pipe organ away to an =   institution that understands and appreciates it? This can be done with the =   provision that they have a plan in place to move it, install it, and have = a real organbuilder revoice it for them, as well as the funds to do so. Some church, synagogue, community center, high school, or college = would appreciate the gift, and would actually go to the trouble of consulting = real organbuilders who know how to make such things work. Any real organbuilder = who has worked on Mollers of the period knows that they are eminently = revoiceable and releatherable. Since the organ would be in a new location, = accessibility would cease to be an issue, since the instrument could be properly sited = and distributed. Certainly, it would be a moral outrage for a religious institution to charge money for something they do not want, so in the end, everybody = wins. The church gets the warm and fuzzy feeling of giving a gift (while ridding themselves of a liability), and an appreciative institution that might not = be able to afford a new organ, but can afford a competent and thoughtful rebuilding, = will have their genuine pipe organ. Without having seen the reports from the various organbuilders = consulted by the church, or even the three best ones from their "short list," it = would be difficult for a group of internet chatters who have not examined the = organ to concede that the chosen course was the best one. But since the die is = cast, the church should consult an organbuilder about helping them find a = recipient for the gift of their instrument.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/   ..  
(back) Subject: Big organs in small spaces From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:39:19 EDT   >I agree with the big digital in a small space. If you voice a huge 3 = manual >so that it will fit in a room of 100-200 people, how happy are you going = to >be with the 8' Principal? It will be so small, and even to get that big >sound even from just a simple plenum, you will probably have to couple = all >division to feel somewhat happy.   I don't know that in these days of all the voicing capabilities that are possibile on digitals, that one would be completely dissatisfied with the = 8' Principal, but I've been in small chapels and looming over in the would be = this monster console. It just looks out of proportion. Truthfully, I = wouldn't want to have to play an 8 rank organ every week, or a small 2 manual = digital, so I know that I would be one of the organists who would want one of the = large 3 manual instruments, however, it all comes down to voicing them to the room. I have heard some that absolutely blow people out of the room when = the 8 Swell flute is played and I've heard some where the whole organ is so emasculated that full organ can hardly support a congregation of 50. = There is a point of balance. The thing to remember, though, is that the most important stop on the = organ is the room. IF the room isn't good, the organ isn't going to sound good regardless of =   what it is. It could be a 15 rank Skinner or a 20 rank Mander or a 80 = stop Marshall-Ogeltree Epiphany organ or whatever, but if the room is bad, it's = not going to sound good. On the other hand, I've been in rooms with 8 seconds = of reverb, where there have been pipe organs in the balcony and some beat up = old Conn up front. In that kind of room, even a 50 year old Conn Artist model = sounds good! I heard a small Moller organ augmented with Musicom voices in a small Lutheran church up in the mountains of North Carolina. The organ sounds incredible, but the telling feature that gives it away as not being all = pipe is that there is no way that the amount of sound that comes forth from the = chamber could possibly be all pipe given the size of the room. The whole church = would have to be filled with pipes. The organ and the digital voices blend seamlessly, but a church that seats maybe 100 people would never have an = organ of over 60 ranks. Small rooms also don't give the sound proper room to develop. I forget = the physics of it, but the cycles of 32' stops need a certain number of feet = to properly develop. Small rooms don't usually have the proper number of = feet for the sound to travel, so the sound doesn't even bloom like it should. =   There are pros and cons to both sides of the argument. I would want an organ to sound good, but I would also want an organ that I could play a = decent service on and play good literature on. I'm amazed at what can be done = with some of the smaller organs from the 1800's versus what can be done with = some of the smaller organs that were mass produced by firms in the last 15 or 20 years. It seems as if the Hooks, Johnson, et. al did a lot more with a = lot less than some of the big builders of our era. Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: Re: Hammond 3-manual drawknob? From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:44:36 EDT   >hmmmmmm maybe people want a Hammond to be a Hammond.   Sometimes it's just better to stick with doing what you do best. People just will never associate Hammond with a classical market. Although, I = still prefer a "real" tonewheel Hammond to a digital one...there is just a = different sound and it can't be replicated, that's why I bought one for my house = and that's why when my church went looking for a "new" Hammond, why I = selected and we bought a vintage tonewheel Hammond. Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: RE: Rational Argument (x posted) WITH GUIDELINES From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:00:53 -0400   Mark, thank you for your comments, but I must correct one thing: This is = not "my church".... it's one I used to work at as a secretary, and they still = value (and seek) my opinion in things musical.   And I should add that this is in its very early stages yet... I just want = to be ready for them when they seek me out (and they will).   Thanks to all, both on-list and off, for your many, varied, and thoughtful =   comments.   --Shirley   On 13 Jul 2004 at 14:57, Mark Koontz expounded:   > If your > church is seriously committed ... > I hope your church will look beyond what is expedient, ... > > I hope your church will pause, and think, and pray. Then they will > know what best to do.      
(back) Subject: Re: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:00:57 EDT   Desiree wrote: >My church is getting proposals for a digital installation at the end of this week. Why? >The current organ in the last few weeks is still showing signs of ware. = Are we going to save >any of the pipe work to later add to the digital? Yes. = As a matter of fact...we will not get rid >of the pipe organ. After meeting = with the priest and discussing things, he's grown tired of >going into the = organ to clear cyphers every other week. The services are getting BIGGER >and = the people are singing more. So we are going 3 manuals with moving stops, = etc. We >are looking at builders that are totally custom and have some warm = sound. A family in the >church who owns a funeral home, one of the ladies is an organist, and has said she would >be interested in donating funds for = augmentation of the pipes. What would happen to the >pipes? Well we don't know yet. A couple of questions here... Why is the priest going into the chambers to fix ciphers? An untrained person in a chamber is dangerous. Why is the organ ciphering if you're = not playing it? What companies are you getting bids from? Are they not going to give you =   bids that include the pipe package or that include a pipe organ company's = work for renovating/restoring/installing the pipework/interfacing it to the digital? I know of a church that got a custom digital from a "boutique" = digital company and the contract with them included all the interfacing and restoration/revoicing/etc. of their existing small pipe organ. I don't = know who the digital builder used, but it was all included as part of the contract. I = know that Allen partners with several pipe organ builders and I know of one = Rodgers dealer who has his own pipe organ division, maintaining pipe organs and doing all his own interfacing and stuff. I would be hesitant about = preparing for augmenting the digital for pipework, because most preparations never come =   about--or they take 30 years to come to fruition. Include the pipe = package in the proposal now. If you have a donor who wants to give the money, get = the figure it will take to do it right. Don't do it half way and be = frustrated 6 months down the road. Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: ALL getting trackers? (Was Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital) From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:51:29 -0500   > >Think about this folks: Organ using churches want the very best. > If every church that preferred organ music had the money, they > would ALL get brand new Trackers that are suitable for the space.   Not ALL. I personally have never felt any difference between a tracker = and EP. I'm not saying there ISN'T one, but I am saying I've never personally experienced it, having played on both.   There are advantages to tracker, and to non-tracker. With non-tracker, = you have the freedom for design (remember the Disney organ discussion?), and don't have to have everything in one spot. You have less ciphering, but with electrical, you have the risk of shorting wiring (or other electrical issues.)   :)   Jeff    
(back) Subject: RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:52:53 -0500   One thing that always amazes me with trackers is the feel of the keys. = The heaviest tracker organ I ever played is at Concordia University in River Forest, IL. You pull on a full organ, coupled everywhere, and you're fingers are gonna get a workout!! One the other hand, there's a little = bit smaller Bosch tracker at Christ Memorial Lutheran here in St. Louis that even at full organ and fully coupled, the action is easy and smooth.   :)   Jeff -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of T.Desiree' Hines Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 3:47 PM To: PipeChat Subject: RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital     oh I like em all too. I played a wonderful Kilgen a few weeks ago, then played one that was horrible. I don't think I have played a Skinner I did not like. I wished that = there were more organs with that design...in rooms so the sound would blend = more.   And...I have played some trackers that were abhorable!         From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html     ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - -- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!  
(back) Subject: RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:55:36 -0500   Daniel, may I also offer up one factor you don't mention below? "The success of any organ ALSO depends on the organist." I've heard fine instruments played badly (example: an 8' and 4' for the Sanctus...that's IT?) The same instrument at the hands (and feet) of a different organist, and wow..what a difference.   You know, I wonder how many churches think that their organ is horrible = (and opt to change to keyboards) because the organist isn't as well trained as they could be (for whatever reason)? In this day, we have so many = pianists who get drafted into playing the organ with no concept of registration. = How can we, as organists, and the Guild address this?? Curious.   :)   Jeff -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Daniel Hancock Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 3:58 PM To: PipeChat Subject: RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital     The success of any organ depends so much on so many factors, room, scaling, location of organ, location of console (if the organist can't really hear it well, how are they going to register decently?), and many others.  
(back) Subject: RE: Rational Argument (x posted) WITH GUIDELINES From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:56:39 -0500   Mark, but is that what's best for THEM, or what's best for US? :)   You're right on the money, though.   Jeff     > I hope your church will pause, and think, and pray. Then they > will know what > best to do. > > Mark Koontz    
(back) Subject: RE: on digital organs From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:58:03 -0500   WOW!!!! 1/4 million should get you a good instrument, fully piped, right??? Or at least a start on one.   Desiree', if you want a TOTAL tracker instrument (and I mean the only electrical items are the blower and lights), try Martin Ott of St. Louis, also. I've always been very impressed with his style of building = trackers.   Jeff   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of T.Desiree' Hines Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 5:11 PM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: on digital organs     OK...If this funeral home woning family give me 250,000 dollars...the first thing im doing is calling Reiger Kloss for a Tracker ! I am sitting = on two proposals submitted by them...one for a decent tracker with some = digital stops...about 25 ranks of pipes and 20 of digital for 200K and another of = 50 ranks all pipes for about 250K. All traker action with a detached keydesk for conducting the choir!   Fat chance I will get that. never know.     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html     ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= - -- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!  
(back) Subject: RE: Rational Argument mit GUIDELINES From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:03:43 -0500   I'm surprised...shouldn't they try selling it before just giving it away = for free? I'm not against putting it into an institution as you say, but = surely the value, even needing all the work, is there?   Just curious...not trying to be a wise-guy. :)   Jeff     > Since the decision has already been made to get a digital > instrument to > replace the Moller, why not have the church give the pipe organ > away to an > institution that understands and appreciates it?    
(back) Subject: RE: Big organs in small spaces From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 19:07:39 -0500   Monty, you have good points here! We tend to forget about the size of the room. Doesn't the Mormon Tabernacle organ have this problem? The sound from that thing, I've been told, bounces all over the room. One person = will hear a 4' stop speaking from BEHIND them, where the person on the other = side of the room won't hear it hardly at all. A curiosity!   As I mentioned, we're looking into a rebuild/redesign, incorporating = digital voices, and one thing the tonal director I met with said was the 32' in = the pedal would depend on the size of the room. He felt it was JUST big = enough to support a 32' Contrabourdon instead of just a 32' Contraviolone. He = said the waveform would depend on the length of the nave. I never thought = about that!   Jeff     > Small rooms also don't give the sound proper room to develop. I > forget the > physics of it, but the cycles of 32' stops need a certain number > of feet to > properly develop. Small rooms don't usually have the proper > number of feet > for the sound to travel, so the sound doesn't even bloom like it > should.    
(back) Subject: Re: Moller vs Electronic From: <Swedish5702@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:35:09 EDT   What an interesting play on words. The digital sounds electronic and the Moller sounds like mush. Try Skinner or Schantz.   Best, Craig  
(back) Subject: Re: ALL getting trackers? (Was Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital) From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:39:00 +0800   Interesting comment. Why should an organ with electric action have a risk = of shorting wiring if wiring is of reasonable quality and installed with reasonable care? It should not. Bob Elms. ----- Original Message ----- . You have less ciphering, but > with electrical, you have the risk of shorting wiring (or other = electrical > issues.)   > Jeff