PipeChat Digest #4614 - Wednesday, July 14, 2004
 
Tracker Keys (Was digital long)
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: on digital organs
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Roman Catholic pipe organs
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
Sanctus 8 and 4 ?
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Roman Catholic pipe organs
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: on digital organs
  by "Scott" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
RE: ALL getting trackers?  (Was Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital)
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: Big organs in small spaces
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
32-footers in small spaces?
  by "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com>
RE: ALL getting trackers?  (Was Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital)
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
RE: Organ in sanity and madness
  by "Peter Harrison" <peter@phmusic.co.uk>
Re: on digital organs
  by <Joshwwhite@aol.com>
Re: on digital organs
  by <Joshwwhite@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Tracker Keys (Was digital long) From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:59:48 -0700 (PDT)   Fritts Organs have WONDERFUL action. The Fritts at Pacific Lutheran = University was always so wonderful to play on, what little us organ majors = got to use it, during lessons and 3 hours a week of practice. Coupling at = the end of the compass has double palleting i believe, but still...was = light, pluck right at the top of the keys...and just OOOO WEE! If I EVER have a job where they want such an organ...THATS what we will = get.   Jeff White <reedstop@charter.net> wrote: One thing that always amazes me with trackers is the feel of the keys. = The heaviest tracker organ I ever played is at Concordia University in = River Forest, IL. You pull on a full organ, coupled everywhere, and = you're fingers are gonna get a workout!! One the other hand, there's a = little bit smaller Bosch tracker at Christ Memorial Lutheran here in St. = Louis that even at full organ and fully coupled, the action is easy and = smooth. :)   Jeff -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of = T.Desiree' Hines Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 3:47 PM To: PipeChat Subject: RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital     oh I like em all too. I played a wonderful Kilgen a few weeks ago, then played one that was = horrible. I don't think I have played a Skinner I did not like. I wished that there = were more organs with that design...in rooms so the sound would blend = more. And...I have played some trackers that were abhorable!       From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html   --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!   From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
(back) Subject: Re: on digital organs From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:11:12 EDT   >about 25 ranks of pipes and 20 of digital for 200K and another of 50 = ranks all pipes for about >250K. All traker action with a detached keydesk for conducting the choir!   >The 250K organ would be 6-8 more ranks of pipes lessening the digital = stops needed. I am confused here. Is the $250,000 quote for all 50 ranks of pipe or 50 =   stops? The two posts have me confused.  
(back) Subject: Roman Catholic pipe organs From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:15:24 -0700   I think one needs to start with the LITURGY and the CONCILIAR DOCUMENTS.   First, the liturgy:   The organ has to lead/accompany the congregation in:       Psalm Response   Alleluia   Sanctus   Memorial Acclamation   Great Amen       That is the minimum set down by the conciliar documents.   Most American churches would add:       Opening Hymn   Kyrie   (Gloria, possibly by the choir, if there is one)   Offertory Hymn (or choir anthem, if there is a choir)   Agnus Dei   (communion motet, if there is a choir)   Post-Communion Hymn       VERY few American RC churches require anything beyond that, and THAT can be accomplished by a modest two-manual organ if it's placed, voiced, and scaled correctly in a decent room.   So ... the organ has to lead congregational singing   GREAT: principal chorus of generous scale, 8-4-2 + low-pitched mixture PEDAL: principal chorus of generous scale, 16-8-4   It has to accompany the cantor   SWELL: Gedeckt 8, Viola or Gemshorn 8, Flute 4 PEDAL: Bourdon or Gedeckt 16   It has to accompany the choir   SWELL: Violin Diapason 8, Fugara 4   Stops needed for organ literature   SWELL: celeste, nazard, tierce, mixture, trumpet, oboe GREAT: 8' flute, cornet, cromorne PEDAL: reed 16, reed 8   SWELL   16' Gedeckt - 12 pipes 8' Violin Diapason 8' Gedeckt 8' Viola or Gemshorn 8' Celeste 4' Fugara or Geigen Octave 4' Chimney Flute - 12 pipes 2 2/3' Nazard 2' Flautino or tapered compromise 1 3/5' Tierce 1 1/3' Mixture IV 8' Trumpet 8' Oboe   GREAT   8' Open Diapason 8' Chimney Flute (in sw box) 8' Viola (sw) 4' Octave 4' Gedeckt (sw) - 12 pipes 2 2/3' Cornet III 2' Fifteenth 2 2/3' Mixture IV 8' Trumpet (sw) 8' Cromorne (in sw box)   PEDAL   32' Resultant (Bourdon + Gedeckt) 16' Principal 16' Bourdon 16' Gedeckt (sw) 8' Octave 8' Flute (bourdon) - 12 pipes 4' Choral Bass 4' Flute (bourdon - 12 pipes 16' Trombone 8' Trumpet - (trombone) 12 pipes   Such an organ in an elevated position on the central axis of the room (east or west end), if properly scaled and voiced, should be able to accompany the singing of up to 1000 people, and play most things that would be legitimately required for preludes and postludes in the Roman Catholic Mass.   That's what the SERVICE requires ... what the ORGANIST may require (?!) is quite another matter <g>   Cheers,   Bud        
(back) Subject: Sanctus 8 and 4 ? From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:15:20 -0700 (PDT)   An 8 and 4 for "Blessed is HE who Come's in the Name of the Lord!"?! 8 = and 4 Solo Trumpets for me! We use the Proulx Sanctus right now and at the = end I play a fanrare of I-Flat VII- Flat VII/1st inv -I Its FF with reeds and swell closed, and open the swell slowly at "Blessed" = with the swell open all the way at "Hosanna"   I've heard fine instruments played badly (example: an 8' and 4' for the = Sanctus...that's IT?) The same instrument at the hands (and feet) of a = different organist, and wow..what a difference.     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
(back) Subject: Re: Roman Catholic pipe organs From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:27:34 -0700 (PDT)   Bud..LOL I need a battery of reeds for the first and last verse of the process and = recess hymns lol   Thats a great stoplist by the way.     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
(back) Subject: Re: on digital organs From: "Scott" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:15:17 -0500   WOW!!!! 1/4 million should get you a good instrument, fully piped, = right??? Or at least a start on one.   Desiree', if you want a TOTAL tracker instrument (and I mean the only = electrical items are the blower and lights), try Martin Ott of St. = Louis, also. I've always been very impressed with his style of building = trackers.   Jeff     I hear James Louder, who used to work for Wollf, does excellent work. = The actions on Wollf organs are never heavy. Try playing the monster at = Kansas University, 50 some stops all coupled together, lighter than more = electric actions.   Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St. Champaign, IL 61820 217.390.0158 www.scottmontgomerymusic.net  
(back) Subject: RE: ALL getting trackers? (Was Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital) From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:49:47 -0500   Point taken, Bob, but I was just saying that if something were going to go wrong, the electrical (as opposed to trackers) would be the only thing. = You wouldn't get a cipher unless it was (most likely) electrically related.   Poor choice of wording, I supposed. Mea culpa.   Jeff   > Interesting comment. Why should an organ with electric action > have a risk of > shorting wiring if wiring is of reasonable quality and installed with > reasonable care? It should not. > Bob Elms. > ----- Original Message ----- . You have less ciphering, but > > with electrical, you have the risk of shorting wiring (or other > electrical > > issues.) > > > Jeff >    
(back) Subject: Re: Big organs in small spaces From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:42:17 EDT   In a message dated 7/13/2004 6:39:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, = RMB10@aol.com writes:   > agree with the big digital in a small space. If you voice a huge 3 = manual > >so that it will fit in a room of 100-200 people   have one of these and everyone loves it   especially me   i get to practice everything........   dale in florida  
(back) Subject: 32-footers in small spaces? From: "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 20:14:53 -0700   I've heard various people say -- some I trust, and some I don't! -- that you need x amount of square feet of space to "do" a 32-footer.   Well, I've asked this question before and never gotten a really satisfactory answer so I'll ask it again.   Why then, on my "killer" home stereo system with a triple speaker system (2 large cabinets per channel plus 2 sub woofers), is it that I can hear AND feel not only 32-foot tone but 64-foot as well?   No, it's not just the harmonics. (The most frequent "lame" explanation.) Harmonics do not rattle the walls and make the floorboards vibrate. And there IS a difference between the sound of a 32-ft Open Wood and a 32-ft half-length Pea Shooter, er, Kontrafagot. In my living room you can most definitely feel the fundamental tone of open wood basses.   I have a number of really good organ demo recordings, including a couple from Sydney Town Hall -- the one with the 64-foot Trombone. It's an awesome sound, even in my average-sized living room (albeit with exposed hardwood floors and fairly high ceiling).   Also, in one of my churches we have two Roland synths, both of which have voices which can be sent down into 64-foot range. This sanctuary seats about, oh, 300 maybe; it's long and narrow but not a particularly high ceiling and not at all resonant. Again, the subbass tones of those synths really shake the place, yet according to "physics" the room is too small even for 32' tone to work, let alone 64 ft.   So, why is that?     ~ C    
(back) Subject: RE: ALL getting trackers? (Was Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital) From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:34:44 -0500   Actually, most of the time trackers, EP's, and DE's all get ciphers for = the same reasons. A valve not seating properly due to foreign debris, misalignment, worn out leather or felt, cracked wood in the chest, or a sticking action, which can occur in a tracker or any other action. In EP and DE a cypher is probably more likely because you have a valve for every =   pipe, but the cypher is also less problematic because it only affects one pipe instead of all the pipes associated with the key (of course a = sticking primary would also affect all the pipes of the key, granted). You can silence the one pipe and then play on.   Anyway, the point is, well, I guess there is no point other than to refute =   the implied notion that tracker organs experience more cyphers than other actions (and this being said by a pro-DE guy). In my experience I think = the reverse has been true, but any action can easily cypher. So far none of = the cyphers I've ever corrected in any electric action have been electicity related. Sure, it could happen, just haven't seen it yet.   Andy   On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:49:47 -0500, Jeff White wrote > Point taken, Bob, but I was just saying that if something were going > to go wrong, the electrical (as opposed to trackers) would be the > only thing. You wouldn't get a cipher unless it was (most likely) > electrically related. > > Poor choice of wording, I supposed. Mea culpa. > > Jeff >   A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com  
(back) Subject: RE: Organ in sanity and madness From: "Peter Harrison" <peter@phmusic.co.uk> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:58:35 +0100   Dear Janet,   Your post has prompted me to dig out my second hand copy of the LP record = of the concert and it is playing now! I'll be glad to find a way for you to hear a copy if you contact me privately.   The concert was devised by Peter Hurford as part of the RCO's centenary appeal and performed at the Royal Albert Hall on 24th September 1966. It involved John Birch (now curator of the RAH organ), John Dykes Bower, = Ralph Downes, Francis Jackson, Martin Neary, Simon Preston, Gillian Weir and = David Willcocks. For Alan Ridout's "L'Orgue Concrete" it is reported Alan Wicks and percussionist James Blades entered wearing dressing gowns which they removed boxing style to allow their contest to begin with movements separated by the bell.   The programme from the evening is delightfully illustrated with unsigned = and uncredited cartoons and must have helped reinforce the feeling of the = event as having something in common with Gerrard Hoffnung's concerts from around the same period.   Peter   Peter M Harrison BIOS Membership Secretary web: www.bios.org.uk     & PHM : P O Box 383 : Bury : BL8 4WX : GB tel 07799 62 1954 / 01204 887161 web: www.phmusic.co.uk           -----Original Message----- Subject: Organ in sanity and madness From: "Janet Jamieson" <rvetsc@globalnet.co.uk> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:40:20 +0100   I am trying to get a copy of this old recording. Can anyone help please?
(back) Subject: Re: on digital organs From: <Joshwwhite@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 02:40:24 EDT   Hmmm, forgive me if these figures seem a little off...Do you mean 250,000 =   for 50 stops or 50 ranks? Is this a new organ with new pipes? I know it = is hard to make an average, but it is easy to say that a new 50 rank organ = could cost anywhere from $650,000 to $800,000+ easily. I am sure that depends = on the size, length, and scale of the 50 ranks. But even if the organ were = built to the smallest scales, with no 32's few 16's and a minimal number of = 8's, I cannot see anyone getting a new 50 rank organ for 250K. (Besides, who would WANT a 50 rank organ with few 16's, and a couple of 8's) For a new organ you might be able to get 16-20 ranks for $250,000. I am quite sure it would cost that much or more to replace our current 17 rank = organ. My church already has close to that amount, and we are prepared to raise = an additional $250,000 for an adequate organ that will better fit the needs = of our church. I expect we might be able to have an organ somewhere between =   40-45 ranks. Am I completely off base here? Josh ....."OK...If this funeral home woning family give me 250,000 = dollars...the first thing im doing is calling Reiger Kloss for a Tracker ! I am sitting = on two proposals submitted by them...one for a decent tracker with some = digital stops...about 25 ranks of pipes and 20 of digital for 200K and another of = 50 ranks all pipes for about 250K. All traker action with a detached keydesk = for conducting the choir!" Fat chance I will get that. never know.     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610      
(back) Subject: Re: on digital organs From: <Joshwwhite@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 03:03:01 EDT   In a message dated 7/14/2004 1:41:10 AM Central Standard Time, Joshwwhite@aol.com writes:   Desiree     Honestly Desiree, I would save the money you would spend on a digital = organ, and apply if to a rebuild of your current instrument. Especially if you have the money to consider a custom digital installation, that is a lot of = money that could be utilized to refurbish/enlarge your pipe organ. A friend of =   mine has a new medium sized three manual Allen organ (stock, not custom) = and he told me they paid upwards of $60,000 for this instrument. There was not = a place for pipes in his large 1970s sanctuary-at least an organ large = enough to fulfill the needs of that church, and I will say the installation was extremely successful. However Desiree, you already have a pipe organ. Instead of "jumping the gun" and buying a digital organ with the intent of adding the = deteriorating pipe organ to it later, perhaps the church should consider the option of using =   the money to first refurbish the pipe organ. Then, you could add the = necessary digital voices to fit the needs of the pipe organ, instead of the other = way around. I think you would have a more complete instrument this way, and = you would certainly be happier! Josh