PipeChat Digest #4615 - Wednesday, July 14, 2004
 
Re: on digital organs
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
Sortanicemusica
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: Roman Catholic pipe organs
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
RE: Organ in sanity and madness
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: Sortanicemusica
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
Organ Music Search eMail Service - CROSS_POSTED
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
All THAT Stuff
  by "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com>
Re: All THAT Stuff
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
RE: All THAT Stuff
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
Re: Sortanicemusica
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #4614 - 07/14/04
  by "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com>
Re: All THAT Stuff
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
"New York Style" Hymn playing and organ design
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: "New York Style" Hymn playing and organ design
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: "New York Style" Hymn playing and organ design
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
SATB propers for Christ the King
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
RE: Organ in sanity and madness
  by "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr>
 

(back) Subject: Re: on digital organs From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 06:33:53 -0700 (PDT)   correction...which i thought i made an organ of 50 ranks equialent...33 of them pipe with digital help in the = padal, and reuse of some of the current organ piping, the pipes that were = new in 1970.     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
(back) Subject: RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:43:07 -0500   Certainly, Jeff! Perhaps that's the most important of all...It has long been my contention (though I can't substantiate it) that part of the reason for the lack of interest in traditional church music is poor presentation. How many churches have decided they don't like "traditional" music, simply because they haven't got a musician capable of presenting it as it ought to be-and thereby judging it? =20   =20   In my new role of Dean of our small AGO chapter, I plan to address this, and offer meetings that bring up topics that ought to be the lowest common denominator for us all. Instead, though, I witness that many organists don't even know the basics. Rectifying this, I believe, is a big part of the guild's mission-moving towards professionalism in organists.   =20   Thanks for your very good point, Jeff.   =20   Daniel   =20   Timothy Daniel Hancock   =20   Dean, American Guild of Organists, Springfield Chapter   Organist, Grace United Methodist Church   Organist, St. Agnes Cathedral Church   =20   847 South Weller Avenue   Springfield, Missouri 65802   417.862.6272 or dhancock@brpae.com   =20   -----Original Message----- From: Jeff White [mailto:reedstop@charter.net]=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 6:56 PM To: PipeChat Subject: RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital   =20   Daniel, may I also offer up one factor you don't mention below? "The success of any organ ALSO depends on the organist."=20   I've heard fine instruments played badly (example: an 8' and 4' for the Sanctus...that's IT?) The same instrument at the hands (and feet) of a different organist, and wow..what a difference. =20   =20   You know, I wonder how many churches think that their organ is horrible (and opt to change to keyboards) because the organist isn't as well trained as they could be (for whatever reason)? In this day, we have so many pianists who get drafted into playing the organ with no concept of registration. How can we, as organists, and the Guild address this?? Curious.   =20   :)   =20   Jeff   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Daniel Hancock Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 2004 3:58 PM To: PipeChat Subject: RE: Long ideas-Replacing with a Digital   The success of any organ depends so much on so many factors, room, scaling, location of organ, location of console (if the organist can't really hear it well, how are they going to register decently?), and many others.    
(back) Subject: Sortanicemusica From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:52:11 EDT   You know what, folks? It is a collective waste of time to fire off even one more synapse discussing the situation at Dee'si're'ee's church. It has been obvious from the start that if anything happens, they will = be forced to go with the loudest and cheapest thing they can find. It must be =   very loud, have lots of buttons, and be suitable for playing all of Dee'si're'ee's many, many organ and choral compositions, as well as some = of the established repertoire. Since Paul Fritts' thoughtfully researched and exquisitely crafted musical monument at PLU is put on the same pedestal as an astonishingly = "affordable" hybrid import or an all-fake plug-in, how much careful listening, discernment, and judgement is taking place? Save your energy and efforts for more constructive situations that are =   actually salvageable. Work on saving doomed historic instruments, or = educate, through conversation, those who have the potential to understand. = Publicize the pipe organ, through word and deed. Make people aware of your chosen instrument, whether the organ in question is endangered or not. But waste = no more time here. The situation speaks for itself.   Sebastian M. Gluck Off to OHS Buffalo http://www.glucknewyork.com/   ..  
(back) Subject: Re: Roman Catholic pipe organs From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:59:11 EDT   For an eleven rank instrument that plays the Roman Catholic service just fine, and proved itself to cover centuries of literature at the dedicatory =   recitals, go to:   http://www.glucknewyork.com/   Under the "instruments" section, go to "current projects." The stoplist is =   there, as is a photo that enlarges with a click. This will move to its own = page with more detailed photos as we post the next current project's "under construction" photos in a week or so. A couple of list members were = actually at the dedication recital.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City   ..  
(back) Subject: RE: Organ in sanity and madness From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:49:26 -0700   >Dear Janet, > >Your post has prompted me to dig out my second hand copy of the LP record = of >the concert and it is playing now! I'll be glad to find a way for you to >hear a copy if you contact me privately.   Peter, I have a 1 hour radio show: "Pipes 'n Pizazz" which features our beloved boxes of whistles besides a lot of other ecclectic stuff: Hammond, synthesizer, digital, etc. Variety is what I search out. Any chance of getting a copy of this somehow? happy to pay ...   John V Pipes 'n Pizazz mondays 11- 12 noon EST WVKR 91.3 FM Vassar College Radio streaming: www.wvkr.org  
(back) Subject: Re: Sortanicemusica From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:02:06 -0500   "The situation speaks for itself.   Sebastian M. Gluck Off to OHS Buffalo"   Actaully, Sebastian, you seem to be speaking for it...   Still waiting for you to let us know here whther you want the Saville = console shipped Fedex, UPS or nos, the alternative, DHL.   Of course, you must agree to restore it to its original beauty, = oscillators and all...no combo here, friends.   noel jones   PS: You may be ready for Buffalo, but is Buffalo ready for you!      
(back) Subject: Organ Music Search eMail Service - CROSS_POSTED From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:52:02 -0500   At Frog Music Press we are considering doing some reprinting of music now out of print. Last night we received a request by an organist who has loaned his copy and never gotten it back of "Despair and Agony of Dachau..." by Sifler.   The copyright is now assigned to Belwin, Sifler died in 2001 and the music is not in print. While this piece would have some interest to some (I'd like to own a copy too) it would not be a big seller, so we have done the next best thing...created a groups where you may list your music wants and excess music for sale.   To search for used organ music or to list used organ music to sell, subscribe to organmusicsearch@yahoogroups.com   To subscribe send a message with Subscribe in the subject line to:   organmusicsearch-subscribe@yahoogroups.com   To send a message to the group use this address.   organmusicsearch@yahoogroups.com   Replies to messages go directly to the sender.   If you are looking for music that is POOP...Permanently Out of Print, contact the copyright holder for permission to have a copy made for yourself so you can do this legally. Check the music copyright info at www.ascap.com for that info.   Any purchase or sale of music as a result of this list is not eh responsibility of the group. We suggest using PayPal to make payments, as there are some buyer and seller protections there.   A web page for this group is being created with access to other search locations for organ music. Members will get notice when it is ready.   Thank you!   noel jones frog music press gedeckt@usit.net        
(back) Subject: All THAT Stuff From: "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 08:23:54 -0700   =3D-> Stops needed for organ literature   SWELL: celeste, nazard, tierce, mixture, trumpet, oboe GREAT: 8' flute, cornet, cromorne PEDAL: reed 16, reed 8   <-=3D     What kind of literature needs all THAT stuff?      
(back) Subject: Re: All THAT Stuff From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:18:12 -0700   Celeste - anything in the French 19th century literature that calls for it, and also as a substitute for the Voix humaine   Nazard, Tierce - anything in the French baroque literature that calls for a Jeu de Tierce or a Cornet   Trumpet - anything in the literature that calls for a plenum sound + reed(s) or a French Grand Jeu   Oboe - Franck, and anything that calls for a softer solo stop   8' flute - the great needs a softer 8' stop for accompaniments   Cornet - anything that calls for a dialog between the Grand Jeu and the Petite Jeu or a Duo between the Jeu de Tierce and the Cornet   Cromorne - the three reeds required for MOST organ literature are: Trumpet, Oboe, Cromorne - the Cromorne is required in both French baroque and French romantic literature   If there is an 8' trumpet in the manuals, there needs to be a 16' Contra Trumpet or Trombone in the Pedal to balance it for "gravitas."   The 8' Pedal reed is required for the c.f. in French Plein Jeu movements, and for the c.f. in Bach chorale preludes which place the c.f. in the tenor range in the pedals.   One could MAKE DO with Oboe + Gedeckt + Nazard + Tierce as a synthetic Cromorne; one could MAKE DO with duplexing the Swell Nazard and Tierce to the Great and doing away with the independent Great Cornet, but the Great Cornet can also substitute for the (absent) Great Clarion in full combinations.   One could MAKE DO by extending the manual 8' Trumpet by 12 pipes to supply the Pedal 16' reed, but by doing it is likely that the scale will either be too large for the manual, or too small for the Pedal.   Remember, I was offering a hypothetical spec for a reverberant church seating upward of 1000 people. Yes, one could do with somewhat less in a smaller room.   Cheers,   Bud   Charlie Lester wrote:   > =3D-> Stops needed for organ literature > > SWELL: celeste, nazard, tierce, mixture, trumpet, oboe > GREAT: 8' flute, cornet, cromorne > PEDAL: reed 16, reed 8 > > <-=3D > > > What kind of literature needs all THAT stuff? > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: RE: All THAT Stuff From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:44:39 -0500   It's also important to remember that for French Romantic literature, and especially Franck, the Oboe needs to be of a character that it blends nicely with the 8' foundations, and is not overpowering.   Daniel   Timothy Daniel Hancock =20 Dean, American Guild of Organists, Springfield Chapter Organist, Grace United Methodist Church Organist, St. Agnes Cathedral Church =20 847 South Weller Avenue Springfield, Missouri 65802 417.862.6272 or dhancock@brpae.com =20   -----Original Message----- From: Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications [mailto:quilisma@cox.net]=20 Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:18 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Re: All THAT Stuff   Oboe - Franck, and anything that calls for a softer solo stop      
(back) Subject: Re: Sortanicemusica From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:46:57 EDT   Sebastian,   Something about Ms. Hines and her situation has set you off. I'm not sure what it is, yet I am also confident that I don't care to know. I will, = however, tell you what I am NOT interested in--and that's condescension and hubris = along the lines of your post. Pardon me, listowners, but one is not REQUIRED either to read or participate in every thread. If you want to be = condescending and mocking, do it privately. I would also add that criticizing a colleague's compositions or arrangements is something better reserved for journals. = Making fun of a colleague's name is better reserved for the playground during gradeschool recess.   Do pardon my honesty.   Respectfully, Bill H. Boston.  
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4614 - 07/14/04 From: "Charlie Lester" <crl@137.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:47:07 -0700   A few comments on Bud's stop list, based on a fair amt of playing in RC churches over the years .......   As a general note, I do agree that in most parishes you do not need a really large instrument, whether of pipes or sand. Most priests seem to be alergic to "loud" sounds and in most cases, you will incur very heated wrath if you dare encroach anywhere near their threshold for pain.   That having been said, a few comments - if I may presume - on Bud's design:   First off, why a unit flute in the swell? And why duplex it to the Great as the only flute in that division as well? This in and of itself will severely limit playing "literature" as well as rob the organ of much-needed color.   Then, I've never seen an organ with a 2-ft. "Tapered Compromise," but the most useful stop in a modest Swell division would be a 2' principal. We don't generally register anymore with "flutes 8 & 2" etc. - that pseudo Baroque styling went out of fad almost 20 years ago.   Then, forget the 4-rk. Mixture in the Swell. You will NEVER use it - except when you're in there alone. For if you dare draw it, the Msgr will throw shoes at you. Same for the tierce. If you have a tierce on the Great, and even that's a dubious luxury on such a small instrument, you certainly don't need one on the Swell as well.   Also, again, why no 4' Principal in the Swell, with tapered stop instead? Fugaras, etc. add little to the ensemble and usually do not have the pleasing tone in reality that they do on paper but generally sound odd. This would most likely end up being a useless stop. Especially with no independent 4' flute.   In the interest of relatively compact design, I -would- stipulate the mutations as tapered stops and voiced as hybrids so they can serve double-duty as chorus upperwork and color mutations.   I guess the Trumpet & Oboe combo are okay but with clever voicing, one stop could serve both duties and you could choose a nicer color reed instead for the 2nd rank.   Then to the Great, again I am puzzled by the fact that you'd duplex all three 8-fts (other than Diap.) from the Swell. In the RC liturgy you often have need to build up sound that does NOT include adding screech.   You'd do much better to follow the French Romantic tradition of Diapason - Gambe - Flute Harmonique - Bourdon, than to stipulate borrowed / unified stops and big mixtures on both manuals that, again, you will never use. Except maybe on Easter Sunday and Christmas Eve Midnight; even at that, you'll still get surly glares from the Right-Reverends. Especially if they've had to endure the racket for a half-dozen masses in one very long day.   Rather than tying 3 ranks up into a Cornet, you'd get much better use out of 3 independent ranks, again, assuming one would ever really need a Tierce all that badly. I could think of many other stops I'd rather have in an organ of this size and proposed use, but for the sake of this stoplist I'll indulge the luxury.   One surely would find it very useful to have a Celeste on both manuals, one of them a very soft Flauto Dolce or Erzahler. I'd personally opt for the former but many organists are fond of Dear Mr. Skinner's Erzahler. As long as it doesn't sound like colicky geese ... the Erzahler should NOT chiff!   Forget the Cromorne. Again, it's a pungent stop that can only be used infrequently because of its conspicuousness. Better to go with its mellower and far more useful 3rd cousin, a nice warm Clarinet.   Can't argue with much in the Pedal except to say that it's odd to see 3 16-ft ranks given all the borrowing and unification in the manuals; AND a separate 8-ft. Octave. This is the one place where, if one -must- do some compromising with unification, it would most successfully and transparently be done.   Having played many such instruments in many such instances, I'd also strongly suggest enclosing the entire instrument. With proper swell enclosures and good clear voicing, you'll get a lot more mileage & flexibility out of a two-manual instrument if it's entirely enclosed. Again, given the situation at hand.   So, all that having been said and given the constraints at hand of a "relatively modest 2-manual organ intended primarily to accompany RC liturgy," I would propose something along the following lines. Won't make a lot of organists happy due to the lack of "ear candy," but it will please the boss and be "invisible" to the average parishioner, which is just the way they usually like it.   This proposal would assume robust "Nouveau Romantique" voicing - just want to be sure that that's clear. NOT 1920s tubby -- one does not have to go from one extreme or the other.   (And, I'll say very fast ..... detached stop-tablet console ........ electric stop AND key action ....... multi-channel combinations ....... in most RC parishes you have several organists - often as many as a half-dozen - playing the organ with all of them at various degrees of proficiency (or lack thereof). By FAR, the most flexible instrument under such circumstances would NOT be a tracker organ.   And, oh, one more tiny note, this spec as proposed would assume the usual plethora of sub & super couplers. Yeah, yeah, no one ever admits to using them, but ... better to put them there and not ever need to use them, than to defer on them and then wish they -were- there on the rare occasions that you do need maximum blast.   Okay, here goes---   SWELL - enclosed - 68 notes up to 4' 16' Rohrbass - 12 pipes (wood) 8' Diapason 8' Gemshorn 8' Chimney Flute (1-49 wood) 8' Viola 8' Viola Celeste (TC) 4' Principal 4' Open Flute (1-37 wood) 4' Metal Gedeckt (1-49 stopped) 2-2/3' Nazard (1-37 tapered) 2' Fifteenth 1-1/3' Larigot (1-37 tapered) 16' Double Bassoon (1/2-length metal) 8' Trompette (French schallots) 8' English Horn 4' Oboe Clarion (from Bassoon, 24 pipes) Tremulant   GREAT - enclosed - 68 notes up to 4' 8' Diapason 8' Gamba ("French") 8' Flute harmonique (metal) 8' Bourdon (wood) 8' Flauto Dolce (metal) 8' Flute Celeste (metal, TC) 4' Octave 4' Open Flute (metal) 4' Gedeckt (1-49 stopped wood) 2-2/3' 12th 2' 15th 1-3/5' 17th Cornet V (Collective) Mixture III 1-15 19 22 26 16-30 15 19 22 31-47 12 15 16 48-61 8 12 15 or something along that line Tromba 8' [fairly big, 25-61 harmonic] Trumpet 8' Clarinet 8' Tremulant   PEDAL - enclosed w/ Great 32' Resultant (Open wood + Rohrbass) 16' Principal 16' Open Wood 16' Rohrbass (SW) 8' Octave - 12 pipes 8' Flute - 12 pipes 4' Choral Bass 4' Gedeckt (metal) 16' Trombone (full-length metal) 16' Contra Bassoon (SW) 8' Trumpet - 12 pipes 8' Tromba (GT) 4' Tromba Clarion (GT)   I am sure that a really brilliant organ designer could come up with something much better (and more practical) than this, but this would be my preference over a instrument with a lot of unification that would rob the organ of color and flexibility along with a lot of upperwork & duplicate 17ths that would merely gather dust.      
(back) Subject: Re: All THAT Stuff From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:05:55 -0700 (PDT)   Bud...very good break down of why we need that stuff. i've been looking = for a way to break it down for a while.     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
(back) Subject: "New York Style" Hymn playing and organ design From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:18:31 -0700 (PDT)   My mentor, the late, great James Dale Holloway once told me that some = east caost schools, especially Westminster, teach "New York" style hymn = playing. What does this consist of? Im assuming that since there are so many fine organs in NYC, that surely, = the organists don't use 8 4 2 IV to accompany the last verse of such tunes = as Mit Freuden Zart, Hymn to Joy or Austria. Maybe they do.Never heard = them in services.     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
(back) Subject: Re: "New York Style" Hymn playing and organ design From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:14:35 -0400   On 7/14/04 1:18 PM, "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> wrote:   > "New York" style hymn playing. What does this consist of?   I=B9ll be most interested to read the replies you get. Mine is not helpful. See www.stlukesnyc.org for our worship and music style (basically highish Lutheran). We=B9ve occasionally had subs like Matt Knip (Jehovah, St. Paul), Cantor Mark Sedio (Central, Minneapolis) and Cantor Frank Stoldt (St. Luke=B9s, Chicago), and they fit in just fine: just what we=B9re used to. So if there=B9s anything peculiar about OUR style (midtown Manhattan, Theatre District), it=B9s probably =B3Lutheran=B2 peculiarity (LOTS of hymnic variety, improvisation, etc.) rather than regional. Likely the Episcopalians can give you better answers.   Alan  
(back) Subject: Re: "New York Style" Hymn playing and organ design From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:26:56 -0700 (PDT)   Alan Interesting that you talk about Lutheran playing. Having gone to PLU for 2 = years, theres a melding of ECUSA and ELCA hymn playing: Gathering notes = between verses in large rooms, lots of swell for the next to the last = verse with the full battery. My thing...from the list...I just hear so many people with this = "Liturgical use" 8 4 2 IV only commentude that the very basic sounds are = needed for joyful, heartfelt, spirited and uplifted hymn singing. So, im = just wondering...what do these people in the esteemed positions or = not-so-esteemed positions do. And the art of hymn playing is just = something that i am interested in. I know that in the Southeast, big robust hymn playing is the norm.     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
(back) Subject: SATB propers for Christ the King From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:44:34 -0700   I have posted these to my download list ... if anyone else wants them, please e-mail me PRIVATELY.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: RE: Organ in sanity and madness From: "John Foss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:24:53 +0300   Peter Harrison wrote: "Your post has prompted me to dig out my second hand copy of the LP record of the concert (Organ in sanity and madness) and it is playing now! "   Thank you Peter, for bringing back memories. I was at the concert and remember it in a vague sort of way - particularly the John Birch James Blades duel. Actually, I was a bit taken aback at the sight of these two slightly overweight musicians in their bathing costumes on the Albert Hall platform, but then I realised it was really designed for Wrestling Matches and the Last Night of the Proms, which comes to much the same thing. I = can't remember what Simon Preston and Ralph Downes played now - frankly, it was never a very satisfactory organ - I don't know what it's like now it's = been re-built. At the console it goes over your head and in the hall it bounces around like a football! John Foss   http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Current topics : YESSSSS!!! 1 NIL! 14 year old George's eyewitness account of the Greek victory in Portugal. Richard Trevithick - pioneering engineer and forgotten genius. Who won world war II? New photo album uploaded by Colin Mitchell: "Keighley and Worth Valley Railway"