PipeChat Digest #4617 - Thursday, July 15, 2004 Re: Organ Music Search eMail Service - CROSS_POSTED by <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Re: "New York Style" Hymn playing and organ design by <RMB10@aol.com> Re: "New York Style" Hymn playing and organ design by "Emily Adams" <email@example.com> RE: "Catholic" organ specs by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Re: New York Style Hymn Playing by "Kenneth Potter" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: "New York Style" Hymn playing and organ design by "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Re: Dick Liebert Music by <Swedish5702@aol.com> Re: New York Style Hymn Playing by "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> hymn playing by <Gfc234@aol.com> RE: "Catholic" organ specs by "Will Light" <email@example.com> RE: "Catholic" organ specs by "Will Light" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: hymn playing by "Roger Brown" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Organ Music Search eMail Service - CROSS_POSTED From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 20:30:46 EDT Noel, This is a MAGNIFICENT IDEA!!! Bravo!! Dale Rider
(back) Subject: Re: "New York Style" Hymn playing and organ design From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 21:13:38 EDT >And I just hate it when people cut the registration back to soft for = second >or third verses. I always think I can sense the congregation out there >thinking "all of a sudden I hear myself singing, and now I'm thinking = about >how bad my voice sounds, and I guess I better sing softer, or maybe just = not >at all," and it's a safe bet at least some of them have lost the whole = point >of what the hymn's about by that time. I know that the original poster to this was originally talking about = playing on her "smallish Rodgers", but I have heard the same thing done on a "largish" Casavant of about 44 ranks. The organist went from full great to Swell 8 Flute, 8 Viole and 4' Flute = and closed the box. The congregation all but stopped singing by the end of = the first line of the second stanza of the hymn. Why? It literally sounded = as if the bottom dropped out. This was at a funeral and there was no choir singing at the time, so the hymn singing was pretty weak to begin with, = but if the congregation had been prepared for an a cappella verse it would have been = o.k., but this came out of the blue. It also didn't help that = rhythmically, the organist jumped a few beats, which also caused the congregation to be = confused. I was glad that I was the funeral director on the funeral = because I could stand in the narthex and snicker. My boss' mother is the Chairman = of the Admin. Board of the church and afterward, she came up to me shaking her = head and told me that she just didn't know why the organist played the hymns = so poorly because it was just too hard to sing along with her playing. LOL I don't think that there is anything wrong with backing the organ down a little on an inner verse--I've been known to go down to full slush at 16, = 8, and 4, but it just can't be an abrupt change. I don't have a standard pattern = of what I do on a hymn, because I color the registration to the text. I change stops as I go along, hitting divisionals to bring on reeds, take = off mixtures, open the boxes, etc. I literally use a whole memory level on = one hymn. I play the text. I get bored when I hear 842 mixture 8' reed on vs. 1; 8 = 4 2 on vs. 2; 8, 4, 2 and swell mix. on vs. 3; and full organ on the final = verse on every hymn. The same pattern gets old, at least to my ears and way of = thinking. Monty Bennett Friendship Baptist Church Charlotte, NC
(back) Subject: Re: "New York Style" Hymn playing and organ design From: "Emily Adams" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:31:31 -0400 Alice asked: Do you still find it annoying when the registration is cut back if the verse is more "tender"? I try to avoid using a bigger registration for the final verse if the verse doesn't suggest it. Alice, what bothers me is for the registration to be suddenly cut back to = a level that doesn't seem to provide adequate support for the congregational singing--not the fact that it's cut back at all. If a registration changes and the congregation suddenly starts singing in a more tentative fashion--and I've heard that on multiple occasions--to me that's a bad thing, regardless of whether the reason is inadequate volume, an unsupportive choice of stops, or just the congregation's insecurity about their own singing. That said, I guess my philosophy is that there's only a limited amount of "musical illustration," as it were, that's practical via registration changes for congregational hymn singing. I just like it pretty straightforward--matter of personal taste and reflection of my own experience, which incidentally doesn't extend to playing large instruments in large spaces. If so, I might see it differently!
(back) Subject: RE: "Catholic" organ specs From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:49:15 +1200 >Ernie? Who's Ernie? Edward George Power Biggs =3D E. Power Biggs. = Maybe I missed the joke here? >> >I have often wondered if E. Power Biggs would have simply been Ernest = P. > Biggs if he had remained in England! >> More like he would have been "Ted". :-) Or perhaps "Ernie?" Yes, he was indeed called Ted (or so he told me) back over 30 hears ago. Someone else - see the sentence above - called him Ernest P., hence my stupid joke. Ross --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 12/07/2004
(back) Subject: Re: New York Style Hymn Playing From: "Kenneth Potter" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 19:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Where did I get my style? Well, two years singing at Riverside, two at St. Mary the Virgin, two at Fifth Ave Presbyterian, and then soloist positions at various less esteemed churches before I became an organist. The people who most had influence on me in regards to hymn playing were Fred Swann, Neil Robinson, Richard Bouchett, etc. I love the way Dorothy Papadakis plays hymns. I'm so sorry she left the NY scene. You can't do better than Bob McDonald and he went off to Texas! I like to keep it marching on - no long pauses at the end of phrases. A tiny break, but not slowing the beat. Who didn't impress me. Well, the super laid back hymn playing at St. Thomas. As a singer, it leaves me cold. When people tell me to use principals 8 and 4 on hymns, or one stop of each pitch and no couplers, well, I just go into a big deep yawn. I am in the process of leaving a position of eight years. Maybe someday the whole story will be told. I am starting a period of subbing because, frankly, there just isn't anything open now that appeals to me. Maybe the perfect church will come along, or maybe not. The church I have been playing in has a ceiling that peaks at 75 feet. It has wonderful reverberant acoustics, transepts - in general a big cathedral sound. The organ is 43 ranks with full principal choruses on each manual. The great is based on a principal 16. The reeds are full and funky, if all at 8'. Opening verses of (big) hymns are usually full great and swell principal choruses coupled with the great reed. Sometimes the positiv chorus is coupled in. The second verse would typically be minus the reed. Next might be minus the mixtures. A final verse would probably add the swell basson and maybe the sw-gt 4, or maybe also the swell trompette to the original registration. Also adding the pedal ophicleide and maybe the 32 resultant. I like to double the beats of the final note, with a nice pause between verses to catch our breath. When I do an improv before the last verse, it starts on the beginning of the last note of the penultimate verse. I had a sub once who called me up praising the instrument, saying that it was the first time he had played an entire service without a single coupler. When I asked our priest at the time, he said, "boring, boring boring." "We couldn't hear the organ." I like it full and grand, with big thrilling sound. That sums up the registrations of everyone I ever heard whose playing I really loved. In small intimate sanctuaries, the 8 and 4 registration works, but not in a big church. Oh yah, don't be afraid to throw in some flutes to fatten it all up if needed. Ken =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D Kenneth Potter, Substitute Organist 845/358-2528 <firstname.lastname@example.org>, 845/480-1416 cell =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D
(back) Subject: Re: "New York Style" Hymn playing and organ design From: "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 22:00:10 -0500 The only thing I really know about New York style hymn playing is that = when I first visited the United States nearly thirty years ago(and where I have now been resident for more than twenty years) the first organs I came = across were the 1831 Goodrich and Appleton trackers in Nantucket Island. I immediately fell in love with these and felt that they were as good or better than anything in my native England. I was sadly disillusioned when = I went to New York and experienced the organs at St. Thomas, Fifth Avenue = and St. James, Madison Avenue, which I decided were as bad as anything I had ever experienced in England. At St. James, in particular, the parish my = wife of 27 years grew up in, the then organist, Alec Wyton, played their awful Moller instrument in such a way as to discourage all but the choir from participating. This is particularly apparent on his "Anglican Chant Psalter", which makes a mockery of the idea of speech rhythm chanting, and (as his former Rectors at St. James suggested to me) is designed = principally to make sure that the congregation cannot participate. It has just about succeeded in killing Anglican chant in the United States. All this leads = me to believe that whatever "New York hymn playing and organ design" is, it = is something greatly to be eschewed. John Speller
(back) Subject: Re: Dick Liebert Music From: <Swedish5702@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:30:01 EDT I have a copy. It is packed pending a move soon to either Boston or Erie, = Pa. Best, Craig
(back) Subject: Re: New York Style Hymn Playing From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 23:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Dorothy is not at St John The Divine = anymore?!?!??!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! According to Ken, I would probably be a good candidate for the ob at his = church when it came open again, wherever it is. OK...here was my typical regime of hymn playing at Pacific Lutheran U on = the Fritts. Take the tune...Austria Introduction...big fanfares vs 1 Haupt-Principal Plenum 16 8 4 2 IV Trompet 8 Sw to Gt Pos-Scharff III FAgott 16 8 4 Sw to Pos Recit-Principals 8 4 2 mix Trompet 8 4 Pedal Principals 16 8 4 IV sw, gt to pd Vs 3-Minus reeds and manuals 16 SOMETIMES esp on a 5 verse hymn i keep = register 1 and solo out the melody on the positif vs 4 minus mixtures, plus the swell battery, sw to ped Vs 4 Same as vs 1 Haupt plus the reeds 16 and 4 Sw to HW Pedal 16, 8 4 2 mix reeds 32 16 8, to sw and HW Reharmonization in -ATB Organ cadence From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
(back) Subject: hymn playing From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 03:21:13 EDT In a message dated 7/14/2004 8:14:06 PM Central Daylight Time, = RMB10@aol.com writes: I don't have a standard pattern of what I do on a hymn, because I color the registration to the text. Bravo, Monty! Instead of listing five variations of tutti for the purpose of = demonstrating how much we know about pushing buttons ( for the 489.97th time this = year), we should have a discussion about the important MUSICAL details of = playing a hymn well: improvisation, text painting, phraising, articulation, reharmonization techniques and ornamentation. So, to start simple-here's a silly little question: What are some of peoples fav harmonization tricks for introducing Holy, = Holy, Holy (Nicaea) ?-lets use the music and text from the LBW-# 165 for consistency. What are some of your thoughts for a basic four-verse free improvisation on the tune? Colorful chords to illuminate certain words = in the hymn? Just a thought-a breath of fresh air... There's a new idea-anyone want to run with it and make a post? This may = be a neat way for all of us to expand our "cook books". Ciao, gfc ___________________________________________________________________________= ___ _________ _______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ _______________________________ ________________ Gregory Francis Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Avenue # GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile email@example.com_ (mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org)
(back) Subject: RE: "Catholic" organ specs From: "Will Light" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:27:35 +0100 I'm at Earlsdon Methodist Church - Earlsdon is a suburb on the south west = of the city- it used to be an "industrial estate" for the watch makers when = it was formed 152 years ago. Will Light Coventry UK -----Original Message----- From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] On Behalf Of = Bob Conway SNIP By the way, Will, which church are you at in Coventry? Bob Conway
(back) Subject: RE: "Catholic" organ specs From: "Will Light" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:27:35 +0100 I think the Cathedral organ takes some getting used to - mainly because = of the acoustic in there- it needs very careful handling - but it is still = the best of a rather poor bunch here in Coventry. Holy Trinity is in a very = bad state, and they have plans to replace it with a new tracker by Tickell = on a gallery in the north aisle/transept - opposite the present organ, but = when that will happen, if ever, is anybodies guess. (They are still working = on the Medieval Doom painting on the arch in the nave which must be costing = a fortune, even with conservation grants from various outside bodies.) As for organ firms - I think Conacher is still going - at least they answered a letter I sent them a couple of years ago. I'm not sure about Bishops - I haven't heard anything about them one way or the other.=20 Will Light Coventry UK -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of TheShieling Sent: 14 July 2004 22:55 To: 'PipeChat' Subject: RE: "Catholic" organ specs I played just two organs in Coventry. The Cathedral and Holy Trinity = ones. The HT one was large but struck as not being of good tone. The Cathedral = H&H put me off a bit, to be honest - a lot of screech at the top end, and = yet boom at the bottom end, with insufficient "tummy". The Southwark Lewis, = to me, is a far far finer instrument and H&H did an amazingly good job in restoring the Lewis tone.=20 On my upcoming trip, I'll be seeing, or re-seeing, a number of organbuilders. Sadly, Walkers, Rushworths, HN&B - all now gone. I've = been trying to find out if Conacher is still going in Hebden Bridge, and also = if Bishops in Beethoven Street in London are still there. Do you know? Thanks, Ross
(back) Subject: Re: hymn playing From: "Roger Brown" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:44:22 +1000 On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 05:21 pm, Gfc234@aol.com wrote: > -lets use the music and text from the LBW-# 165 for consistency.=A0 Why would one do that - I have no idea what LBW means (other than a means o= f=20 dismissing batsmen in cricket!) And why would you assume that a varied harmonisation is appropriate to=20 introduce a hymn. It certainly is NOT appropriate in the tradition in which= I=20 work (Anglican). And while I am at it, I am VERY wary about text painting - unless one is=20 possessed of great discretion, the result is almost always disruptive of th= e=20 congregational singing. =2D-=20 Roger Brown firstname.lastname@example.org email@example.com http://rogerbrown.no-ip.org