PipeChat Digest #4627 - Saturday, July 17, 2004
 
communion packets
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Playing during liturgical events
  by "Jeremy Wance" <jwance@cox.net>
Preludes on "Pleading Savior"
  by "Robert Nickel" <rnickel@charter.net>
Re: Playing during liturgical events
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Playing during liturgical events
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Playing during liturgical events
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
cultural adjustments
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Prepackaged communion (Off-topic)
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Hermetically Sealed Communion--off topic
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: music for August 15
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: communion packets From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:21:57 -0700   There's no excuse whatsoever for this under any circumstance. It cheapens the Sacrament of our salvation beyond measure.   The abandonment of the common cup likewise destroys an ancient and hallowed symbol of the ONE Mystical Body partaking of the ONE Mystic Food and Drink. "This blest Sacrament of UNITY" becomes that typically American "this blest (?) Sacrament of everybody doing his/her own thing."   Communion is not TAKEN; it is GIVEN, at the hands of the priest, who stands in Christ's stead at the Table.   Jesus took REAL bread (unleavened, in the Western tradition) blessed it, BROKE it, and gave it to them, saying "THIS is my Body." He took a SINGLE cup of REAL wine made from grapes, blessed it, and gave it to them, saying, "THIS is my Blood."   Non-alcoholic "wine" may be used for alcoholic priests or communicants; bread other than wheat bread, or wine other than grape wine, may be used in cultures where wheat bread and grape wine are not the cultural norm (rice wine and rice bread may legitimately be used in Oriental cultures), but the Elements must both RESEMBLE and BE real FOOD.   The VALIDITY of the Sacrament rests on form ("The Tradition", which I spoke about in a previous post), matter (the bread and wine, and a validly-ordained priest to consecrate it according to the rites of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church) and intention (intending to do what Jesus did at the Last Supper in communion with the entire One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church throughout the ages).   Nor is the consecrated Sacrament to rest on or in ANYTHING but silver, gold, or pure linen (in the case of the Host) ... not pottery, not glass, and certainly not in plastic shot-glasses.   Anglican sick-call kits (at least) have adequate and safe provisions for carrying the Precious Blood to the sick. It's not customary to reserve in both Kinds for extended periods (other than in some places where the Precious Blood is reserved after the Coena Mass on Maundy Thursday night so that communion can be given in both Kinds on Good Friday in the Mass of the Pre-Sanctified), but it's not unusual in the Anglican Church for the deacons to carry both Kinds to the sick when sick communions are done immediately after the Sunday Mass(es).   Catholic doctrine states that the fullness of Christ's Body and Blood is contained in either Species; those who are ill can and should receive the Host ONLY. I had occasion when I was still in the active ministry to give the Precious Blood to bedridden patients by means of an eye-dropper if they couldn't swallow the Host.   "Christ is whole to all that taste" (St. Thomas Aquinas).   Yes, of COURSE, just about ANYTHING can be substituted in a REAL emergency, including pita bread and grape juice, a paper cup and a paper plate for the chalice and paten, paper napkins for the purificator and corporal, and a kerosene lantern for candles ... I have celebrated Mass on the hood of a Jeep with exactly those items, plus a Bible, from which I recited "The Tradition" from First Corinthians and improvised the rest or said it from memory.   Kneeling for communion is much-despised these days ... I think when I meet my God on the Day of Judgment I will find myself on my knees ... is anything LESS appropriate when I meet Him to RECEIVE Him in the Sacrament of the Altar?   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Playing during liturgical events From: "Jeremy Wance" <jwance@cox.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:47:01 -0500   Personally, I will take my chances with the chalice. For those of you = who shrink with fear, perhaps you should consider the case of the water = fountain....well known as a leading source of transmission of = mononucleosis and influenza. I'll trust the antiseptic capacities of = the wine and the silver...not to mention a good purificator. If you are = particularly worried, take an extra gulp from the chalice, just in case = you feel the need for some extra antiseptic. <g> In the case of such a = virulent and unpreventable epidemic as SARS I would perhaps feel = differently. We're all capable of getting a flu shot and taking care of = ourselves otherwise.   By the way...An Episcopal church I have visited is replete with = intinction cups which look like small chalices. They are held by the = chalicifers in the hand with which the particular chalicifer also holds = the purificator. Personally, it seems like a delicate balance. I don't = fancy having to mop Jesus up.   Cheers! Jeremy jwance@cox.net AIM Screen-name: jeremywance "Bring me my Bow of burning gold:/ Bring me my Arrows of desire:/ Bring = me my Spear: O clouds unfold!/ Bring me my Chariot of fire!" -- Wm. = Blake
(back) Subject: Preludes on "Pleading Savior" From: "Robert Nickel" <rnickel@charter.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:07:54 -0500   A few months ago I requested preludes based on the tune "Pleading Savior." Here was the reply from one very helpful source.   CALLAHAN SIX MEDITATIONS ON AMERICAN FOLK HYMNS DIEMER SEVEN HYMN PRELUDES HARRIS TEN HYMN PRELUDES IN TRIO STYLE, SET 2 HEBBLE FOR THE MASSES HEBBLE QUIET REFLECTIONS (ED. WOOD) HEGARTY SACRED ORGAN DIVERSITIES HEGARTY THE ORGANIST'S COMPANION (ED. GWOZDZ), V. 2 KELLEY THE TRIUMPHS OF HIS GRACE LACHENAUER ORGANISTS COMPANION, 22/5 LANGLOIS FIVE HYMNS OF PRAISE ROTERMUND THE LIVING GOD: ORGAN MEDITATIONS FOR HOLY COMMUNION THEWES MEDITATIONS ON THE SAVIOR WYTON MIXTURE IV   Bob Nickel    
(back) Subject: Re: Playing during liturgical events From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 08:11:22 +0800   Haven't we strayed a long way from the topics permitted in this list? What has this discussion to do with pipe organs? It is easy to criticise the practices in a church of another faith from yours. I was brought up Methodist (now Uniting Church). We always used separate little communion glasses and unfermented grape juice. To make fun of this practice does = those who deny its validity no service. You stick to your way of doing it and = I'll stick to mine! Thank you! Bob Elms.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 10:17 PM Subject: Re: Playing during liturgical events     > On 7/17/04 7:37 AM, "RMB10@aol.com" <RMB10@aol.com> wrote: > > > those new disposable communion cups that have the wafer and the juice all > > hermetically sealed "for your protection" > > I certainly hope the packaging contains all the required nutritional > information. > > Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Playing during liturgical events From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:42:04 -0400   On 7/17/04 8:11 PM, "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> wrote:   > Haven't we strayed a long way from the topics permitted in this list? Wha= t > has this discussion to do with pipe organs? It is easy to criticise the > practices in a church of another faith from yours. I was brought up > Methodist (now Uniting Church). We always used separate little communion > glasses and unfermented grape juice. To make fun of this practice does th= ose > who deny its validity no service. You stick to your way of doing it and I= 'll > stick to mine! Thank you! > Bob Elms.   Bob: Perhaps surprising, I'll agree with you. I'm probably the WORST at falling into theological stuff. I MUST resist this. It may be natural to me, but this is not the place. I disagree with you on "another faith from yours." It's (usually) the same faith; just a different denomination.   I'd venture to "deny validity," perhaps. But please note that in my most t= o Alicia a coupe hours ago I said, "And in your denomination and mine, no, it would not be valid." I may THINK that it's universally invalid, but I hope you'll never catch me SAYING so, least of all on this list.   But thanks for your admonition!   Finally, friend, it=B9s VERY tempting to say, paraphrasing you, =B3You keep doing it your way, and I=B9ll keep doing it Jesus=B9 way.=B2 But I will NOT say that (even though tempted).   Alan >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 10:17 PM > Subject: Re: Playing during liturgical events >=20 >=20 >> On 7/17/04 7:37 AM, "RMB10@aol.com" <RMB10@aol.com> wrote: >>=20 >>> those new disposable communion cups that have the wafer and the juice > all >>> hermetically sealed "for your protection" >>=20 >> I certainly hope the packaging contains all the required nutritional >> information. >>=20 >> Alan >=20    
(back) Subject: Re: Playing during liturgical events From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 19:44:07 -0500   In the Roman Catholic church, the bread MUST be wheat and the liquid MUST be wine -non-acoholic wine is an open question last I heard.   We take the pyx with a host consecrated from the Mass to the sick.   Alicia Zeilenga       -----Original Message----- From: Innkawgneeto@cs.com   > It really doesn't matter whether communion is wafer/wine, or > donut/koolaid, > does it? Or anything in between? > > The self-contained packets of wafer/wine are meant to facilitate > communion > and ministry to persons who otherwise might not be able to receive the > sacrament.      
(back) Subject: cultural adjustments From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 17:57:42 -0700   Alas, the present regime in Rome is repeating their mistake of the 16th century ... back then, the Jesuits were WELL on their way to converting the Orient to Christianity when the Curia withdrew permission to make cultural adjustments, such as the vestment colors, and the use of other than wheat bread and grape wine, etc.   In the Orient, white is the color for MOURNING; genuflecting has no meaning; profound BOWS and prostrations are considered acts of reverence and respect; kneeling is equivalent to sitting, etc. ... much the same mistake was made with other indigenous cultures, including the Native American.   In fairness, the Puritans who invaded Hawaii were just as bad, as were Protestant AND Catholic missionaries who went to South America and Africa. It was forgotten that Christianity was at base an EASTERN religion in the FIRST place, and that it was NOT synonymous with WESTERN cultural norms.   One has only to attend a Coptic Divine Liturgy to see THAT, and the Copts are probably as close to immediate post-Apostolic Christianity as we'll ever get. Their liturgy takes SEVEN hours (grin).   Cheers,   Bud   Alicia Zeilenga wrote:   > In the Roman Catholic church, the bread MUST be wheat and the liquid > MUST be wine -non-acoholic wine is an open question last I heard. > > We take the pyx with a host consecrated from the Mass to the sick. > > Alicia Zeilenga > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Innkawgneeto@cs.com > > >>It really doesn't matter whether communion is wafer/wine, or >>donut/koolaid, >>does it? Or anything in between? >> >>The self-contained packets of wafer/wine are meant to facilitate >>communion >>and ministry to persons who otherwise might not be able to receive the >>sacrament. > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Prepackaged communion (Off-topic) From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:56:11 -0400   On 7/17/04 6:04 PM, "ContraReed@aol.com" <ContraReed@aol.com> wrote:   > Actually, these were designed for places where the usual communion ware = would > be impractical; such as communion services in wartime on the = battlefield, (or > maybe even visiting shut-ins in certain kinds of institutions).   I seriously doubt that, Richard. If they're targeting military and institutional chaplaincies, why are they pushing and demonstrating them at = a "conference"? I think they're pitching to "anybody who'll buy it." And since it's "wine free," the market is limited to start with.   > But (IMHO) for a company to sell these to churches as an 'alternative' = really > reeks of bad-taste.   Now we're back together again. To put it mildly.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Hermetically Sealed Communion--off topic From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:57:42 EDT   For those of you who want to take a look at what I was referring to, go = to: _www.communionsource.com_ (http://www.communionsource.com) ("for all = things communion" according to their catalogue) and look for the Chasid Cup prefilled-commuion cup. I experienced it for myself... Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: music for August 15 From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:46:10 EDT   In a message dated 7/17/2004 6:42:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, acfreed0904@earthlink.net writes:   > Bud! It's EASY to keep track of. Whenever Independence Day lands on > Sunday, so does Mary Day! Get with the Kalendar. >   Who knew? Wisdom just flows on this list.......   my new thing to learn for the day.   thanks   dale in Florida just a wee bit smarter today than yesterday