PipeChat Digest #4645 - Sunday, July 25, 2004
Re: music for 8/15
  by "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net>
August 15th
  by "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: August 15th
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
Going for our Church Employment Dreams
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: August 15th
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: PipeChat OHS Gallery
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
RE: PipeChat OHS Gallery
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
music and theology
  by "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: music for 8/15
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
Re: August 15 - Mary
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
Re: pedalpoint?
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
Re: music and theology
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>

(back) Subject: Re: music for 8/15 From: "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:23:26 -0700   The Book of Genesis, Chapter Three, verse 15:   15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his = heel.   Psalm 45:   1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer. 2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever. 3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty. 4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things. 5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee. 6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. 9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir. 10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him. 12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. 15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace. 16 Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth. 17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.     The Gospel according to Saint Luke, the First Chapter, beginning with verse five:     5 THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. 7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years. 8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, 9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. 10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense. 11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. 12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. 13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. 16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their = God. 17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. 18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. 19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. 20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season. 21 And the people waited for Zacharias, and marvelled that he tarried so long in the temple. 22 And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless. 23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house. 24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying, 25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men. 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. 36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing shall be impossible. 38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. 39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; 40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. 41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to = me? 44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. 54 He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; 55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. 56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.   The Gospel according to St. John, the Second Chapter, beginning with the first verse:   John 2 1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. 3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do = it.   The Gospel according to St. John, the Nineteenth Chapter, beginning with verse twenty-five:   25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.   The Book of Acts, Chapter One, beginning with the eleventh verse:   11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.   The Revelation of St. John the Divine, Chapter Twelve, beginning with verse one:   1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.   Thus the final mention of Mary in the Book of Revelation is the fulfilment of the promise in the Book of Genesis, 3:15:   15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his = heel.   Mary is the eternal paradox of humility and glory ... the simple maid who carried the Second Person of the Holy Trinity in her womb ... who was commended to be our Mother by Christ on the Cross ... who lived to see the fires of Pentecost ... who on this day (August 15th) was taken up to heaven to be Queen of Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, Virgins, Widows, All Saints, All Angels ... higher than the Angels and Archangels, more glorious than the Cherubim and Seraphim, and second only to the Holy Trinity in glory, by God's promise and God's Word.   Mary asks, "how can this be?" And God replies, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."   As the old hymn says,   "But more blessed far the Mother, She who bare him in Her womb!   Cheers,   Bud           Alan Freed wrote: > On 7/25/04 5:11 PM, "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> wrote: > > The Lutheran church doesn't teach that Mary is a queen, or enthroned > above (right, Alan?). > > > You could be rebutted, maybe even successfully, on that. Phrases (TLH) > like =93Higher than the cherubim; more glorious than the seraphim,=94 = when > contextualized with scriptural phrases about the REST of us as being = =93a > little lower than the angels=94 are intriguing and invite speculation. > > Only a few days ago I read a pretty solid (specifically Lutheran) case > for words like =93crowned,=94 =93empress,=94 and =93queen.=94 It may = take me a day > or two to find it again. (Non-publicized [almost secret] aftermath of > OHS and P.O.E. goings-on are in NYC tomorrow.) If I can, and if I can > justify it in a PipeChat context, I=92ll post it here; otherwise, = off-liste. > > Alan      
(back) Subject: August 15th From: "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 16:24:53 -0700   I think the Armenian Liturgy (one of the oldest) says it best:   "When Mary breathed her last breath on earth, she breathed her first breath in heaven.   And lets it go at that.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: August 15th From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 19:07:32 -0500   Folks   I know that this discussion got underway because of someone asking about repertoire for August 15th but it has turned into a theological discussion which really belongs on another list as it is rather off-topic here. So let us move on to more ORGAN related topics.   Thanks   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Going for our Church Employment Dreams From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:11:59 -0700 (PDT)   First, I apologize if this is not an allowed topic here. But it does = relate to our profession as Sacred Musicians. For those of us who have dreams and ambitions to serve Musical and SINGING = Churches thru Sacred Music (aka "...lusting after a job"), what do those = of you who are seasoned offer those of us who will fill the shoes? = Particularly, what are some of the anthologies that helped you along the = way? Bud and Bill H. were both very helpful in offering me information on = texts on Anglo Catholic Music. Since I find the services so intricate, I = find that I should probably read and learn about them. I have also read a = book called The Church Musician's Handbook which is used more for the = ECUSA, as well as Paul Wertermeyer's book. There used to be a book call = "The Organist Choirmaster" but I don't know who wrote it. I would love to = read it. If any of you have any text suggestions in addition to those offered to me = by Bud and Bill H. let me know. Books on American Baptist, PCUSA and UCC = worship are my next goal, along with adding to my hymnal library.     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
(back) Subject: Re: August 15th From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 08:23:07 +0800   Dear David, I will be away from home for a few days but my attempts at unsuibscribing for that period are being returned by my server as being unable to be delivered. Please unsubscribe me. Thanks Bob Elms.    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat OHS Gallery From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:27:43 -0400   David 'et al',   Thanks for the photos, they put faced to names. I am glad that you all enjoyed Buffalo.   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: RE: PipeChat OHS Gallery From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:04:16 -0500   Great photos, David! Thanks.   Maybe I could add my own OHS convention photos - the finished porch, the outdoor ceiling fan, the blooming crape myrtles, my red hair, my tan, the next chapter of the third sequel.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com   Daddy Cat came back!          
(back) Subject: music and theology From: "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 18:40:22 -0700   I'm not sure I agree with you, David.   Byrd's being "only a musician" may have spared him drawing and quartering at the hands of Elizabeth the First for being a "recusant" (Roman Catholic) in post-reformation England, but I for one think it MATTERS *why* we play *what* we play.   And so did Luther. Alan can give us the correct quote, but Luther said that next to theology, the "queen of the sciences", music was the most important.   And so did Bach. The inventory of Bach's library at his death contained as many theological books as it did musical books. One could reconstruct the whole of orthodox Lutheran theology from the study of Bach's cantatas. Or his chorale-based organ music, for that matter. He was "un regle vivante" ... a Living Rule ... from whose life and works the Rule of Life could be reconstructed by observation, if the written copies ever disappeared.   And so did Archbishop Cranmer. Read the rubrics of the First Prayer Book of 1549.   And so did the Wesleys. A great chunk of the canon of English hymnody came from the pens of the Wesleys.   And so did Pope Pius X. The motu proprio on church music may have been romantic in its historical outlook, but it had a salutary bracing effect on Roman Catholic church music, at least until Vatican II intervened.   When we are challenged to defend traditional church music against CCM, etc., we need a THEOLOGICAL basis ... "good taste" isn't going to convince many people.   There is an OBJECTIVE, SCRIPTURAL basis for doing what we SHOULD do ... read Deuteronomy and Numbers and Leviticus for what God required of His people under the OLD Covenant.   Jesus didn't OVERTHROW the Temple worship when He established the New Covenant ... he PURIFIED it and substituted HIMSELF as the "one, true, pure, immortal sacrifice" of the NEW Covenant, replacing "the blood of bulls and goats, which offered year by year can never take away sin, else they would cease to be offered" (Hebrews 10).   Organists don't sing and play in a vacuum ... we sing and play in CHURCHES ... and, whatever church, it behooves us to know a GREAT DEAL about that church's theology AND liturgy, if we are to be MINISTERS of music and minister BY our music.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: music for 8/15 From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:27:25 EDT   Jeff, a good selection of music. I love the Vaughan Williams especially. =   Lee  
(back) Subject: Re: August 15 - Mary From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:30:52 EDT   Thanks for the information. I had not heard that, either. I have played = in a Lutheran church, too. Right now I am in a Baptist church which does not =   have much to say about Mary except at Christmas. Can anyone explain that = to me? Lee  
(back) Subject: Re: pedalpoint? From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:34:28 EDT   A quarterly music magazine put out by LifeWay music for pianists and organists. Lee  
(back) Subject: Re: music and theology From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:14:06 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   I'm not sure if "music and theology" is off-topic, but as a great deal of organ music is based on church repertoire from the Hebrew chants of the Old Testament to 20th century hymnody, I expect it has to be connected and very much on-topic.   "Bud" takes the traditional "high church" catholic stance, where "things are done proper" according to the old rites.   I don't have a quibble with that, if people believe what is writ and find it both comfortable and comforting.   The fact that churches are emptying across Europe and also in America, suggests that people simply do not feel either comfortable or even comforted by traditional belief and their associated acts of divine worship.   It is not long ago that, here in the UK, we were being urged to accepts "modern" hymns (actually 1930/40's style pap!) as the answer to the vicar's prayers. That didn't work, so they introduced "pop" and "rock" music. That had a limited success, though a few seem to thrive on it where it is done well.   IMHO, no-one respects opportunism, and surely, religious opportunism is the worst form of it.   No! The answer to the problems of dwindling church attendance must rest with the fact that human knowledge has moved a quantam leap in the past fifty years, and on the face of it, appears to contradict, if not rubbish, much of what traditionalists would regard as immortal truth.   People may try and defend traditional faith, and some are silly enough to want to present it as fact, but the stark reality is, that a thousand words have been written for every word of the Bible, explaining the origin of species, the sum knowledge about the universe, the Big Bang, genetics, biology, psychology, physiology, chemistry, physics etc etc.   Unfortunately, in being necessarily selective in what we accept or do not accept in the Bible, we give ammunition to the critics of Christianity. It is surely the emphasis on "authority" and "eternal truth" which has most alienated people from the pews?   After all, we live in a changing Universe, a changing World and each of us live in a changing environment and society. It is, I fear, a case of adapt or die.   Of course, we can hold fast to traditional faith, and try to convince people that this is truth, but I suspect them not to be quite so stupid.   Let's assume a different style of faith and worship, where we no longer expect our "God" to fill in the gaps of our feeble knowledge; instead, prepared to fully acknowledge that "we do not know the answers" to the existence of life on Earth, "but we're thinking about it, like you are."   Strip away all the speculation and pseudo-science, the tribal law and customs, the mistruths and half-truths, and what are we left with in the Bible?   Well, we're left with life, love and hope....that's what!   In the Christology of what is left of the New Testament, we are once more "God centered" and focused on our own responsibilities as followers of a remarkable person who, as man, was also beyond human comprehension in his love of life and people.   In the constant regeneration of faith and hope, we have the recurring resurrection, and in true worship, we have the eternal regeneration of the ascendent principle of Christ as God.   Is it so difficult, that we have to immerse all our efforts into "study groups," rather than into the good life?   Surely, that was always the difference between men of faith, and men following the concept of a life constructed around "In imitato Christo." Faith, if it is to be of any Earthly use, has to uplift and inspire others to follow.........not be a personal reservoir for our own self-indulgence and inner self-loathing.   Now to come back on topic, the idea of a Godless universe has inspired some great music; the Holst "Planets" being one of them....a fine a piece of programme mysticism as it is possible to hear.   Or perhaps the adversity faced by loving, caring people in a world directed towards self-absorbed destructiveness. Think perhaps, of "When the Christian soul is in distress," which so inspired Jehan Alain to state, in the most eloquent musical language, the organ's greatest "Alleluias." (Simon Preston also wrote an awfully good "Alleluyas," which although short, is a fine work.)   Isn't it strange that the greatest church music is written about the nativity; one of the finest bits of undocumented nonsense in the whole Bible. Yet, with genius, it taps into the human soul at gut level; the "idea" of new birth, of hope, of love and the FACT that a baby was born who would change the world. Again, the nativity is an ongoing thing....the nurturing of being "born again" in spirit....usually a lot of hoo-hah and incantations, but actually a very, very simple concept which is not the sole preserve of the ghastly charismatics.   It is my view, that when Christians are "people centered" they start to love life as it is, and when people become centered on the love of life, they find God.....through the Christ of the living body of his church.   Put a musician in that couldron, and you get pure magic!   Go forth and weave the spell!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK           -- "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net> wrote: > I'm not sure I agree with you, David. > > Byrd's being "only a musician" may have spared him > drawing and > quartering at the hands of Elizabeth the First for > being a "recusant" > (Roman Catholic) in post-reformation England, but I > for one think it > MATTERS *why* we play *what* we play. > > And so did Luther.     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail