PipeChat Digest #4649 - Monday, July 26, 2004
 
RE: Tubular Pneumatic Action
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
the real world
  by "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Tubular Pneumatic Action
  by "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Tubular Pneumatic Action
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
RE: Tubular Pneumatic Action
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: Tubular Pneumatic Action
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
RC Church Position in NJ
  by <Oboe32@aol.com>
Re: the real world
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
Re: the real world
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
Re: Re: RESOURCES for Baptist/evangelical "stuff" ... Lee? Monty? others?
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Starting ages as organist
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Starting ages as organist
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
felix unsubscribe etc
  by "nycchelsea@yahoo.com" <nycchelsea@yahoo.com>
Re: felix unsubscribe etc
  by "mack02445" <mack02445@comcast.net>
early start
  by "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net>
Attention John Foss
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: RESOURCES for Baptist/evangelical "stuff" ... Lee? Monty? others?
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
Re: Starting ages as organist
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: RE: Tubular Pneumatic Action From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 15:39:46 -0500   The action on this organ is pretty unreliable and faulty-it ciphers when using the couplers, and several of the manual stops have dead notes in the bottom end. I've been advised that this is exhaust (operating on a vacuum) action, rather than pressure. =20   =20   How can it be determined for sure?   =20   If the organ is at all inclined to be reliable, I'm for saving the pneumatics. I don't know about storing the lead tubes, however. I'm sure they're doomed for replacement. The organ is, if anything, overly responsive.     Daniel   =20   Timothy Daniel Hancock   =20   Dean, American Guild of Organists, Springfield Chapter   Organist, Grace United Methodist Church   Assistant Organist, St. Agnes Cathedral Church   =20   847 South Weller Avenue   Springfield, Missouri 65802   417.862.6272 or dhancock@brpae.com   =20   http://www.agohq.org/chapters/springfieldmo <http://www.agohq.org/chapters/springfieldmo>=20   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of TheShieling Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 3:33 PM To: 'PipeChat' Subject: RE: Tubular Pneumatic Action   =20   >I've recently had cause to inquire into the workings of tubular-pneumatic   organ actions and have heard about a supposed unreliability in instruments   with these actions. Is it typical to experience dead notes and ciphers in   such actions? Are actions restorable to any degree of reliability?   =20   You'd need to define the action more. some organs have exhaust pneumatic   action, others have pressure. Some are on slider chests, some are not. If   you have exhaust pneumatics on slider chests, you may well have an action   that in the longterm is far more reliable than anything else but tracker,   making it very well worth keeping. A good exhaust action on slider chests is   just as far as electrics, provided the console is not put yards and yards   and yards away.   =20   Here in Wellington NZ we have a 4/57 Norman & Beard from 1906, with two   full-length 32fts, massive high-pressure Solo tubas at 16, 8 & 4 (straight   ranks), all that sort of stuff, and the action has been restored but once   since new, and that was in the last 20 years. The action is blindingly-fast,   repetition faultless, and no one here would even dream of electrifying the   beast. Faults just don't occur.   =20   Be VERY careful before throwing out good pneumatics.   =20   Ross   =20   =20   ******************************************************************   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!"   PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics   HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org   List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org   Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org   List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org>   List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org>   List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: the real world From: "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:42:21 -0700   Keith, with respect, here's my point:   If your small Southern Baptist Church has to be rewired, you hire an electrician at the going rate, pull the requisite permits at the going rate, pay for materials and labor at the going rate, and the job is done.   If it needs a new roof, the same procedure is followed.   If it needs new plumbing, the same procedure is followed.   If you need to build an addition to the Fellowship Hall, the same procedure is followed.   If your underpaid bivocational pastor needs medical care, he goes to the doctor and pays the going rate, unless he's lucky enough to have insurance from his secular job. He doesn't ASK for, nor does he EXPECT to receive free medical care.   If he needs a lawyer, he pays the going rate.   If he needs a tax preparer or a CPA, he pays the going rate.   So does the church.   He DOES expect the church to provide him with a SALARY, a PARSONAGE, and such other benefits as they negotiate and are able to pay.   The Board of Deacons does NOT expect ANY of the above work NOT to cost money ... the days when members of the church were allowed to do things like that for free are pretty much over, on account of building codes and liability insurance, UNLESS they are licensed roofers, plumbers, electricians, contractors, builders, etc.   But when it comes to the MUSIC, which after the preaching IS the heart and soul of a Baptist (or just about any OTHER service) ... "oh no, we don't pay our musicians; that's a SIN! They should DONATE their services to the glory of God!"   Damn right it's a sin ... AGAINST THE MUSICIANS!!!!!   The Bible says "the laborer is worthy of his hire."   I will say it again, and I MEAN WHAT I SAY:   "ANY musician who is foolish enough to play or sing for nothing devalues his art, his humanity, his profession, and HIS OWN FAITH by doing so, and in the process likewise devalues all those things for his COLLEAGUES as well."   Any church that can afford even a PART-TIME *preacher* can afford to pay a part-time ORGANIST.   Or let them GO without. If they value music and musicians so little, they don't NEED music in the FIRST place.   I recently heard this song-and-dance from a local church here in San Diego that's ROLLING in money ... they haven't been able to keep an organist for years (at $50 a throw).   I've BEEN to church there ... I've SEEN the mink stoles at the Easter Vigil, and COUNTED the number of Rolls and Mercedes in the parking lot.   I told the Placement Director of the AGO that "if they want to continue hiring female teen-age piano students who can't play the pedals for one of the most DIFFICULT services in town (Greek Orthodox, no less!), then they'll continue to get what they pay for."   He asked me what it would take for ME to take the position.   I said, "I'm not able, but if I WAS, I wouldn't do it for a penny less than $24,000 per annum, HOLY WEEK (*endless services*), weddings and funerals to be paid EXTRA at the rate of $200 per service."   THAT'S what the job's WORTH ... a three-hour (!) service plus warm-up on Sunday, a two-hour rehearsal on Thursday ... not a word of English in the service ... a working knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy absolutely REQUIRED, knowledge of liturgical Greek EXTREMELY helpful ... give me a break!   To quote Ma Rainey, "If I can't sell it, I shall sit upon it," in the comfort of my HOME (chuckle).   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Tubular Pneumatic Action From: "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 13:47:34 -0700   I agree with Ross. Tubular pneumatic action, because it was never developed to the degree of perfect in the US that it was in the UK, is vastly undervalued on this side of the pond.   Mander recently restored a massive tubular pneumatic organ in the chapel at Eton College (I think it was), and by all reports the action is flawless, fast, and reliable.   TP action shouldn't be judged by those HORRID Moller bar-and-membrane rigs, which AREN'T worth restoring.   Cheers,   Bud   TheShieling wrote:   >>I=92ve recently had cause to inquire into the workings of = tubular-pneumatic > > organ actions and have heard about a supposed unreliability in = instruments > with these actions. Is it typical to experience dead notes and ciphers = in > such actions? Are actions restorable to any degree of reliability? > > You'd need to define the action more. some organs have exhaust pneumatic > action, others have pressure. Some are on slider chests, some are not. = If > you have exhaust pneumatics on slider chests, you may well have an = action > that in the longterm is far more reliable than anything else but = tracker, > making it very well worth keeping. A good exhaust action on slider = chests is > just as far as electrics, provided the console is not put yards and = yards > and yards away. > > Here in Wellington NZ we have a 4/57 Norman & Beard from 1906, with two > full-length 32fts, massive high-pressure Solo tubas at 16, 8 & 4 = (straight > ranks), all that sort of stuff, and the action has been restored but = once > since new, and that was in the last 20 years. The action is = blindingly-fast, > repetition faultless, and no one here would even dream of electrifying = the > beast. Faults just don't occur. > > Be VERY careful before throwing out good pneumatics. > > Ross > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Tubular Pneumatic Action From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:58:46 EDT   In a message dated 7/26/2004 2:20:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhancock@brpae.com writes: Do any of you know of T-P organs that are either functioning reliably in original or restored condition? If any of you have or can point me to = diagrams of these actions, I would be grateful I have serviced a M P Moller tubular-pneumatic organ built in 1914, = located in Luray Virginia...it is all original, and has not (to my knowledge) even = been releathered. No dead notes and no ceiphers as of my last visit. There used = to be some diagrams in the Barnes "Contemporary American Organ" i think, and = I have seen diagrams in othere out-of-print books dealing with organ = building (including Audsley?). I have also seen a Felgemacker organ that WAS a tubular action, but was converted to have electro=3Dpneumatic primaries, playable from a detatched = console. >>WARNING<< if you take down the bottom boards of a Felgemacker chest, be ABSOLUTELY SURE that you lay the screws out in the EXACT order because = there are two sizes of screws used, and using a larger screw in a wrong hole will = cause the screw to enter and disable the rectangular pneumatics used to pull the =   individual pallets under the pipes. Also, the ventils can be prone to = leakage, and they are sometimes a bear to get to to repair/adjust. (been there, = done that !)   Rick in VA  
(back) Subject: RE: Tubular Pneumatic Action From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 09:08:49 +1200     >I agree with Ross. Tubular pneumatic action, because it was never developed to the degree of perfect in the US that it was in the UK, is vastly undervalued on this side of the pond.   Thanks, Bud.   Let's explain why tp action is so fast by comparing it with electricity. = In pneumatic action, things work immediately. With electric action, you have = to build up a charge before things can work, and then afterwards the charge = has to die out. All that takes time. You need a big magnet to do a big job - = and by and large the bigger the magnet the slower the action becomes. So, you try to compensate by using low voltage and low amperage. If you have = sense, you'll use a two stage electro-pneumatic action, especially for the bigger pipes like offsets, as two-stage electro-pneumatics are quicker, more reliable and more efficient than an electric action on its own. Might be hard to believe, but it's true.   What I would never encourage anyone to do, though, is have pressure pneumatics and put the console at a distance. Lead tubes can last at least 150 years if they're looked after, so there is no automatic presumption = that tubing need be discarded.   Ross    
(back) Subject: RE: Tubular Pneumatic Action From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:17:36 -0500   How about storing the tubes--with out them (or yourself :-) ) getting all bent out of shape?   =20   Daniel   =20   Timothy Daniel Hancock   =20   Dean, American Guild of Organists, Springfield Chapter   Organist, Grace United Methodist Church   Assistant Organist, St. Agnes Cathedral Church   =20   847 South Weller Avenue   Springfield, Missouri 65802   417.862.6272 or dhancock@brpae.com   =20   http://www.agohq.org/chapters/springfieldmo <http://www.agohq.org/chapters/springfieldmo>=20   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of TheShieling Sent: Monday, July 26, 2004 4:09 PM To: 'PipeChat' Subject: RE: Tubular Pneumatic Action   =20   =20   >I agree with Ross. Tubular pneumatic action, because it was never=20   developed to the degree of perfect in the US that it was in the UK, is=20   vastly undervalued on this side of the pond.   =20   Thanks, Bud.   =20   Let's explain why tp action is so fast by comparing it with electricity. In   pneumatic action, things work immediately. With electric action, you have to   build up a charge before things can work, and then afterwards the charge has   to die out. All that takes time. You need a big magnet to do a big job - and   by and large the bigger the magnet the slower the action becomes. So, you   try to compensate by using low voltage and low amperage. If you have sense,   you'll use a two stage electro-pneumatic action, especially for the bigger   pipes like offsets, as two-stage electro-pneumatics are quicker, more   reliable and more efficient than an electric action on its own. Might be   hard to believe, but it's true.=20   =20   What I would never encourage anyone to do, though, is have pressure   pneumatics and put the console at a distance. Lead tubes can last at least   150 years if they're looked after, so there is no automatic presumption that   tubing need be discarded.=20   =20   Ross   =20   =20   ******************************************************************   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!"   PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics   HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org   List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org   Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org   List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org>   List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org>   List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: RC Church Position in NJ From: <Oboe32@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:19:59 -0400   Hey All,   I will be leaving my fulltime position at Nativity RC Church in Fair Haven = NJ, effective September 1, 2004. The position is fulltime and includes a = good compensation package that includes benefits, 4 weeks off, continuing = ed, and some other perks. There is a new pastor that is very up to date on = liturgy and has the interests of his staff in mind. Responsibilities = include 2 choirs, adults and kids, supplying music or musicians for 5 = weekend liturgies, Vigil masses on Holy Days, and some special services. = Any interested parties are encouraged to contact the pastor of Nativity, = Fr. Robert Schecker, at 732-741-5043 at their earliest convenience. This = church is on the Jersey Shore, approx 1 hour south of NYC and convenient = to both Ferry Services and Train service.   Regards,   Peter Isherwood  
(back) Subject: Re: the real world From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 17:32:25 EDT   In a message dated 7/26/2004 3:47:20 PM Central Daylight Time, quilisma@cox.net writes:   If your small Southern Baptist Church has to be rewired, you hire an electrician at the going rate, pull the requisite permits at the going rate, pay for materials and labor at the going rate, and the job is done.   If it needs a new roof, the same procedure is followed.   If it needs new plumbing, the same procedure is followed.   If you need to build an addition to the Fellowship Hall, the same procedure is followed.         100% correct Bud! I really hate getting low-balled for funerals and weddings cause the = people are members of the church. What difference should that make in my = check-its my time-regardless. Funeral homes, florists, and limo companies aren't treated like that-because they won't stand for it. Why should we? Also-part timers MUST be paid extra for Xmas and Holy Week-I've calculated = that those services take an additional 40-50 hours per year-if you're = getting paid for 10 hours a week, that is over one month's pay. Having just finished my MM, two of my best friends just finished their bachelors work-one is a nurse-she is making 50k + benefits, right out of = school. The other is a business major,and he is making 40+benefits right out of school. Now if we talk about how my time was spent compared to theirs = while in school, and compare it to salaries after school, it is very upsetting. = While they would party every night, weekend, I practiced-between 30 and 40 = hours per week AND had a heavy course load. I am not making any where near that (yet). I will consider myself lucky if I find a job that pays 40 and = benefits. The AGO refuses to get involved with these types of situations. Perhaps they need to raise the lowest salaries in each category 30 or 40 percent. We are in serious trouble. ___________________________________________________________________________= ___ _________ _______________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ _______________________________ ________________ Gregory Francis Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Avenue # GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile _gfc234@aol.com_ (mailto:gfc234@aol.com)  
(back) Subject: Re: the real world From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:16:36 EDT   I always had a full time job to pay for my advocation of being a Church Organist. Now, retired, I have time to practice more and get my = manuscripts on Finale and printed. We record the improvisations and I want to listen to = them and put the best on manuscript. Who knows, someone might publish one of them some day (after I am gone). Lee  
(back) Subject: Re: Re: RESOURCES for Baptist/evangelical "stuff" ... Lee? Monty? others? From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:45:30 EDT   For evangelical music, I always found that Genevox had some of the better =   quality stuff, as does Fred Bock Music (or any of the subsidary = companies). Lillenas sometimes has good things, but you have to search for it. For piano/organ duets, I personally enjoy the John Innes/Bill Fasig ones = because they are pretty technically challenging, as opposed to so many of the duets = that are published where one instrument just plays chords while the other one = plays a melody. Bill Fasig a friend, so having a personal connection also gives = it a "connection." The Bruce Greer two piano arrangements (published by = Word) can be altered to work for organ and piano with a few minor adjustments, = but the pianist HAS to be virtuosic. Great Aunt Bessie won't be up to the = task. Bruce Greer also has some great solo piano arrangements, as does Mark = Hayes, based on hymns and praise choruses. There are always the Diane Bish arrangements of a lot of the older hymns that people love, and in a = couple of her newest books, she has some old-time gospel hymns like "A New Name Written = Down in Glory" and "Heavenly Sunlight." So off the top of my head, these are who I would check out for = "evangelical" publications: Genevox (LifeWay)--Baptist Sunday School Board Word Lillenas Fred Bock Music (and any of the subsidiary companies) Although, I find that at my church, I can use pretty much anything as long = as Monty Bennett Friendship Missionary Baptist Church Charlotte, NC  
(back) Subject: Starting ages as organist From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:48:27 EDT   I started my career as a church organist at age 11. Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: Starting ages as organist From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 18:53:19 EDT   In a message dated 7/26/04 5:50:05 PM Central Daylight Time, RMB10@aol.com =   writes:   > I started my career as a church organist at age 11. >   If that's 3rd or 4th grade, so did I. I couldnt reach the pedals well yet =   and my mother, a former organist herself, would assist with registering = the stops.   -Scott   Scott F. Foppiano Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat.  
(back) Subject: felix unsubscribe etc From: "nycchelsea@yahoo.com" <nycchelsea@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:41:12 -0700 (PDT)   I dont' know Felix but I would guess he probably re-subscribed using a "junk" email address..   with all the spam going on I have quit using my "real" email addresses on any of these lists and use a junk email account on yahoo that I only use to read this stuff.   thanks John Rust     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: felix unsubscribe etc From: "mack02445" <mack02445@comcast.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:51:11 -0400   Before this gets going too much more, there has been enough "open mouth insert foot" on this issue. Hans was somehow unsubscribed too, which is why there has been no official answer. Felix is away in Germany hiking through the Alps with his Brother. nuff said.   Mack   nycchelsea@yahoo.com wrote:   >I dont' know Felix but I would guess he probably >re-subscribed using a "junk" email address.. > > > >    
(back) Subject: early start From: "Raymond H. Clark" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:54:53 -0700   I played my first High Mass at age 9 ... on a pump organ! (chuckle)   It took REAL strong ankles to get through the CREDO (grin)   I was a senior in high school before I had my first position with a pipe organ ... a derelict 3m beast, made out of two divisions of a four-manual Austin and one division of a Wurlitzer THEATRE organ. The wind leaks were so loud that opening the swell box was the signal for the choir to stand (chuckle).   It was later replaced by one of the last Aeolian-Skinners, which burned with the church; they now have a 3m Harrison.   My first "good" organ was a 2m 1959 Schantz (this was 1963, and I was a sophomore in college) ... it wasn't a Skinner, but it played the Mass and a reasonable amount of organ literature.   The STRANGEST organ I ever played? The Johnson/Kimball/Wurlitzer/Holtkamp (!) at St. James Anglican Catholic Church in Cleveland.   SWELL   8' Rohrfloete 8' String (?) 4' Principal 2' Octave (?) Cornet IV (mounted) 8' Fagott   GREAT   16' Quintadena 8' Principal 8' Grossfloete 5 1/3' Quint (later changed to 4' Octave)   POSITIV   8' Quintadena 4' Prestant Cymbal (Mixture in the bass, Cornet in the treble)   PEDAL   16' Subbass 16' Quintadena (gt) 8' Octave 4' Choral Bass (added in the 1960s) 16' Dulzian   It was built out of bits and pieces of this and that either immediately before or during WWII for the rector's wife, who was an organ student of Walter Blodgett. Walter used to play an early High Mass at St. James and then rush up the hill to play Morning Prayer at St. Paul's in the Heights.   Most fun organ: the great lumbering 1928 3m Austin in Old St. Mary's, Cincinnati ... with 3 1/2 seconds reverb, ANYTHING sounded good on it.   Cheers,   Bud          
(back) Subject: Attention John Foss From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:53:20 -0400   John:   I don't expect this to make your day, BUT:   I was in a New York City restaurant this afternoon with five organists = (I'm not one). Five, from three continents. Two Europeans, two Americans, and one Asian. Few of whom knew one another at all for more than a few days.   And your name came up (context was your organ recordings on the list). = Many nice words were said about you, and almost too many drinks (no ouzo) consumed. I think you'll be getting some more submissions.   Thanks very MUCH.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: RESOURCES for Baptist/evangelical "stuff" ... Lee? Monty? others? From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:53:18 EDT   Myra Schubert and Eleanor Whitset have a book of Organ and Piano duets = that are wonderful. They are difficult for the pianist, but well worth = learning. I have used the Don Hustad/Ted Smith books, too. They are not as difficult, =   but the beauty of the hymn tunes make them a favorite of the congregation. = Linda McKecknic also has a book of duets, some based on classical music. = Robert McDonald has several books, all of which are very nice, as does Paul = Mickelson. Then there are the Gordon Young and Dale Wood compositions and = arrangements. In the Gordon Young books, there is usually one really nice piece in each =   book. The Wood arrangements and compositions are more difficult, but very = nice, especially the ones based on The Sacred Harp. Don Hustad also has a book based on the same. And don't forget Don Wrytzen. Richard Huggins does = very nice pieces. He also has some published in PedalPoint. These are just some of = my favorite. I have 4 music cabinets full of organ music. I have catalogued =   them to 2002, if anyone would like a list of 50 years of collecting organ = music. Just email me privately and I will send it. Lee  
(back) Subject: Re: Starting ages as organist From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:56:00 EDT   I started piano lessons at age 4, played for my Sunday School department = by the age of 10, but did not have a job as organist until I was 14, in a = little Mexican church, where they asked me if I could play in Spanish. Lee