PipeChat Digest #4546 - Tuesday, June 8, 2004 Cocktails and dance mixes..with Northwestern Music Students (sorta on top by "T.Desiree' Hines" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Dictionary added to IOF Web site by "Peter Rodwell" <email@example.com> RE: Patriotic suggestions by "Glenda" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: digital "action" by "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Re: digital "action" by "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Cocktails and dance mixes..with Northwestern Music Students (sorta on by "noel jones" <email@example.com> Tamburini digest by "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Old Speakers by "Bob Conway" <email@example.com> Re: digital "action" by "John L. Speller" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: digital "action" by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
(back) Subject: Cocktails and dance mixes..with Northwestern Music Students (sorta on topic) From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 02:49:44 -0700 (PDT) --0-777814090-1086688184=3D:53720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Being the young woman that I am, I still love nitelife. And living in = Chicago theres opportunity for much of it. My regular places are = concentrated in our North Halsted Street area. Tonite, I ran into a friend i met at a dance club who happens to be a = Northwestern Music major. He was with the band director and a bunch of = other friends. So...of course...I broke into a conversation about the Organ Department. I = asked the band director and he broke out into a spiel...the same thing = that Toni Marie Montgomery was saying..political sounding...you know. So I asked the students. They were ALL voice and Music Theatre majors. And = guess whatl...they all DISPISE Toni Marie Montgomery. She not only cut the = organ program, but is ridding of one of the voice faculty who is decorated = and was Bette Midlers teacher. He was also a member of the MET and = performed on Broadway. One voice major said she tried to get TMM fired and = wrote the Daily Northwestern twice a week about her leadership practices. They were also saying how many students in other instruments are greatly = upset with the cut of the organ department. They say that the school hired = her because of fund raising. She can get money and get it fast. There is = also some talk about building an entirely new facility for the music = school and that money has been raised. They say that she will not give = valid reasons as to why the organ department was cut...and these students = want to know why. And they are not even organ majors. One of them = mentioned that Organ students can always find employment...while voice = students will wait tables for a year or so. It seems like shes messing up = the entire music school. They say what makes them even more upset with the = Organ degree being cut is that there is no real reason, especially = considerng that there was (what i hear) a major multy mill dollar gift for = organ alone. So you see...its not just us who are upset. Cocktails are fun...dance mixes too...and support for the organ from other = musicians...priceless. From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --0-777814090-1086688184=3D:53720 Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii <DIV>Being the young woman that I am, I still love nitelife. And living in = Chicago theres opportunity for much of it. My regular places are = concentrated in our North Halsted Street area. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tonite, I ran into a friend i met at a dance club who happens to be a = Northwestern Music major. He was with the band director and a bunch of = other friends. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So...of course...I broke into a conversation about the Organ = Department. I asked the band director and he broke out into a spiel...the = same thing that Toni Marie Montgomery was saying..political sounding...you = know. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I asked the students. They were ALL voice and Music Theatre = majors. And guess whatl...they all DISPISE Toni Marie Montgomery. She not = only cut the organ program, but is ridding of one of the voice faculty who = is decorated and was Bette Midlers teacher. He was also a member of the = MET and performed on Broadway. One voice major said she tried to get TMM = fired and wrote the Daily Northwestern twice a week about her leadership = practices. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They were also saying how many students in other instruments are = greatly upset with the cut of the organ department. They say that the = school hired her because of fund raising. She can get money and get it = fast. There is also some talk about building an entirely new facility = for the music school and that money has been raised. They say that = she will not give valid reasons as to why the organ department was = cut...and these students want to know why. And they are not even organ = majors. One of them mentioned that Organ students can always find = employment...while voice students will wait tables for a year or so. It = seems like shes messing up the entire music school. They say what makes = them even more upset with the Organ degree being cut is that there is no = real reason, especially considerng that there was (what i hear) a major = multy mill dollar gift for organ alone. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So you see...its not just us who are upset.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cocktails are fun...dance mixes too...and support for the organ from = other musicians...priceless. </DIV><BR><BR>From Desiree' <br>T. Desiree' = Hines<br>Chicago, IL 60610<br>----------------------------<br>For = Compositions by Desiree'<br>Frog Music = Press<br>www.frogmusic.com<br>-------------------------------<br>FOR = CONCERTS BY DESIREE'<br>http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html<p> <hr size=3D1><font face=3Darial size=3D-1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>Friends. = Fun. <a href=3D"http://messenger.yahoo.com/">Try the all-new Yahoo! = Messenger</a> --0-777814090-1086688184=3D:53720--
(back) Subject: Dictionary added to IOF Web site From: "Peter Rodwell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 12:21:15 +0200 I have today added a multi-language dictionary of organ terms to our Web site (http://www.IntOrg.org). It contains some 200+ terms in Dutch, English, French, German, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish. Access is from our main page - enjoy! Peter Rodwell International Organ Foundation
(back) Subject: RE: Patriotic suggestions From: "Glenda" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 07:23:09 -0500 I only have one, and that is the E. Power Biggs one. If there are other good ones I am interested. If anyone needs that publisher I can look it up downstairs. Glenda Sutton firstname.lastname@example.org -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of email@example.com --- Glenda <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > The Stars and Stripes Forever. And the best available edition and its publisher is?.... Morton Belcher fellow list member...
(back) Subject: Re: digital "action" From: "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:38:17 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: "PipeChat" <email@example.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 12:42 AM Subject: Re: digital "action" > Bud, let me correct a wild statement you made without offending you = again. > Your statement that speakers and electronic instruments need to tbe replaced > every 20 to 30 years is generalization. I have electronics as a hobby = and > have been a radio ham for nearly 50 years. I have never had a speaker > reconed or replaced; yet I have gear here with speakers which is much older > than that. That is probably because your speakers are old enough to be coned with cardboard, rather than with foam rubber, which is susceptible to a mold which causes it to disintegrate. The speakers on my sound system needed reconing after less than ten years. John Speller
(back) Subject: Re: digital "action" From: "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 21:47:14 +0800 Sorry! 3/42 not 2/42. BE. ----- Original Message ----- From: "bobelms" <email@example.com> To: "PipeChat" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 1:42 PM Subject: Re: digital "action" .. One of the others 2/42 with tracker action has had > extensive work already with a completely rebuilt wind system and work on the > action. The third 2/24 tracker has had a completely new tracker action > installed
(back) Subject: Re: Cocktails and dance mixes..with Northwestern Music Students (sorta on topic) From: "noel jones" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 10:12:20 -0500 My friend, Desiree's post (how does one type that? Desiree''s?) really brings up the issue that we tend to ignore. ROI Return On Investment I had the opportunity to do some accompanying for a ballet company at one time and asked a good friend, Vance George, for advice. He responded that one has to consider two things...are you going to make money from it or are you going to learn from it...otherwise, why do it? If a music department is not "paying it's way", should it exist? Explain how Curtiss and Juilliard exist with their massive scholarship programs. Someone with a good business head created those schools. noel jones
(back) Subject: Tamburini digest From: "Andr=E9s G=FCnther" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 10:28:00 -0400 Andres Gunther email@example.com Arie wrote: > Andres, > > My ignorance shows here, but I will ask it anyways. I thought that the > transition of pipes from E-P chests to slider was not near so drastic on > organ pipe voicing, as say going from typical direct electric to slider. I > thought that as long as the wind pressure was relative, only minor = voicing > was required, and mostly the reeds, going from E-P to slider. This whole matter still is in discussion between voicers, even thru = several threads on organ lists. I confess that I am not a voicer (not yet, but certainly I WILL become one!). The worst voicing problems lie on the onspeech (attack). Reed pipes are even more susceptible; not so long ago there was a discussion on this list about this matter. The only thing I = can do for now is to advise that it's not a good idea to "move" pipework to a chest type it was not tonally designed for. > Also, in a topical climate is a mechanical organ really reliable in the > long term, especially with swelling due to humidity, salt in the air, > termites etc.? Just asking. In average, and according to my experience, it is. TPN and EP systems develop more trouble in less time than mech trackers. Basically, there are no tiny leather membranes who stiffen, rot away or are eaten by pests, and no electromechanical components that rust or corrode (Salt in the air however is an enemy for ALL music instruments!). Our C-C organs did fine. Precisely in Brazil there is an Arp Schnitger organ- it works! In Manila there is the famous bamboo organ- working. In Mexico there are lots of 16th cty spanish organs- they work. I have seen more destruction by humans than by climatic facts here- excluding the darn termites, of course. Swelling due to humidity is a point however! Mostly on the sliders. But = this problem is everywhere in the world. Mr. Detlef Kleuker patented a slider system that is immune to that: acrylic sliders running in a brass rail guide. Today, this system is obsolete. Organ builders use reinforced phenolic resin (the same material that is used for electronic circuit boards) running between two sets of thick felt gaskets (one glued to the table, the other underneath the toeboards). The felt is treated against moths and termites; and even if it gets spoiled it's easy to change out. As for termites, I advise strongly everybody who has to deliver an organ = to tropical climates (including Florida in the US) to use treated woods or tropical hardwoods for all woodwork. > Here in Canada, generally the newer tracker actioned organs are in = climate > controlled environments, and even then there are problems, so I would = hate > to think what happens in Brazil. In average terms, churches in our countries have no climate control = (=3Dair condition) because the equipments are far too expensive to purcase and to mantain- outside the power consumption. But wood, beeing an organic material, adapts to the climate better than we think possible. Temperature is stable throughout the year (changes dramatically in the course of a day however, tuners havo to keep that in mind). Wooden trackers don't swell or shrink significantly. For very large tracker actions however I would = advise to build in a tracker tensor (is that the correct english term? in german: Trakturspanner) to counteract eventual troubles. Ironically, in concert halls the problem is precisely the air condition- it's turned on and off, and *that* is bad for the organ. Domitila wrote: > I think, one of more important point about de restauration organ is the mantenaince. At time > of project, all is promissed. But, latter... who repair the organ? Who, in Brazil, can repair a > organ with digital = action. One of the two projects was presented by a brazilian men. When I > read in Internet, Notre Dame's organ had or have problems... in France, with many resources > (money and technology). I was told that the ND organ got a very sophisticated and not well designed-developed digital control system, and the trouble laid in this = fact rather in maintenance problems. Last year at the AIO convention I had a = talk with several people who manufacture digital control (not action!) systems for pipe organs. They work hard to design more reliable, long lasting systems and work over the weak points I mentioned in my yesterday's AGEP. Electronics are developing very fast. What unfortunatedly doesn't develop are south american countries under leftist regimes who refuse to join the NAFTA and close down their money exchange markets and put thousand bureaucratic impediments to importation and blame Hi-Tech development as "a form of egozentrism and = neo-colonialism" (this is the case of Venezuela however- Domitila lives in Brazil, it might be different there). This and what Domitila points out respecting reliable *maintenance* of restored organs is driving me nuts. To quote Domitila: = "At time of project, all is promissed. But, latter... who repair the organ?" Exactly that. From Peruvian, Chilean and Argentinian colleagues I hear the same complaint. There *are* organ builders here. Good and bad ones, as everywhere. But they cannot work regularly or do a living. Yours Andres =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D First was the cat, then was the Orgler. The Orgler got a pet and the cat got something to wonder about.
(back) Subject: Old Speakers From: "Bob Conway" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 10:18:32 -0400 This is may be a bit off topic, but I am able to tell you that in my = Stereo system I have two Goodmans 300,12 inch speakers, one that I built into a 9 = cubic feet cabinet of my own design in 1950, when we were still mono, and the other, which is also a Goodmans 300,12 inch speaker, that is built = into another cabinet of the same design as the original, for use after we all went stereo in 1960. An interesting point is that I lived near the Goodmans factory in Wembley, = London, and I took the first one to them to match the second one to them = as they were offering a matching service to ensure that the two speakers = would sound alike. So one is 54 years old, and the other is 44 years old, and they are both going strong! I think that they are paper cones mounted in a cardboard surround, - but I am not going to open up the cabinets to see! They survived the journey across the Atlantic Ocean in 1968, where they were surely submitted to salty air conditions. Bob Conway
(back) Subject: Re: digital "action" From: "John L. Speller" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:32:58 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: "PipeChat" <email@example.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 8:47 AM Subject: Re: digital "action" > Sorry! 3/42 not 2/42. > BE. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > To: "PipeChat" <email@example.com> > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: digital "action" > . One of the others 2/42 with tracker action has had > > extensive work already with a completely rebuilt wind system and work = on > the > > action. The third 2/24 tracker has had a completely new tracker action > > installed It largely depends on how well built a tracker organ is. Some instruments have held up extremely well, such as the von Beckerath at St. Michael's Episcopal Church in New York City, or the Frobenius in Queen's College, Oxford, which have both delivered faultless service for forty years. One = of the problems with modern tracker organs is that their construction is = often extremely flimsy in what I think is generally a misguided attempt to make the action very light. In some cases tracker organs are built with a lighter touch than electro-pneumatic ones. This is not only ridiculous = but dangerous, since unduly light actions encourage a style of playing that is likely to lead to carpal tunnel syndrome. For my part I prefer the = tracker actions that were being produced in the late nineteenth century by organ builders like ... well, Roosevelt and Hutchings are the first two names = that came into my head, but there are many others as well. These were beautifully engineered, not unduly heavy, and reliable. Some of these instruments are still going strong after a century or more without ever having had a major repair. Where they have broken down it is usually because of problems with the chests rather than a problem with the tracker action itself, and here modern chests using tables of voidless ply or = medium density fiber would have avoided the problem. The need to replace slider seals in modern slider chests has, however, been a problem, as well as the fact that friction created by the springing of the slider seals radically slows down the stop action. Here the solution is Blackinton style chests without slider seals and with butcher's blocked toeboards and brass shims = to adjust the distancing of the sliders. These chests ought never to need their sliders refitting and can be used either for tracker or electric action organs. They also have irrigation like a traditional chest, which avoids the danger of channel slap, a problem which besets many modern chests. They also have a stop action speed comparable with a pitman = action. John Speller
(back) Subject: Re: digital "action" From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 10:34:52 -0400 >> >>Bud, >>I would like to visit this thousand year old tracker you are talking = about. > >Arie, I think if you re-read that sentence, you will discover that I'm >speaking of the GENRE, not a specific instrument. But, as a matter of >fact, there IS one: Sion, Switzerland. >>In fact I would like to visit a 500 year old pipe organ that has NEVER >>been worked on, other than basic maintenance and tuning. >>It is true that most trackers have simple mechanisms, but still in >>general trackers get an overhaul every 50 to 75 years, assuming they are = >>played much at all. > >The K & G I speak of below was played for 3-4 Masses and Vespers DAILY; >most RC organs (anyway) WERE. > >Look at all those famous organs in Europe, >>especially in Holland, and they had restorations done 2 or 3 times = during >>the 20th century. > >MOST of those were ill-informed attempts to electrocute and romanticize >the instruments; the second rebuilds were usually attempts to put them >back the way they WERE, and/or re-trackerize them when the newer electric = >action or pneumatic action failed. >>The newer electro-pneumatic chests and pitman chests are fairly easy to >>re-leather. Just drop the pouch boards shave off the leather, and put >>new ones on. The primary ones are a bigger job though. >>The biggest problem with pipe organs, and this is what is causing a lot >>of churches to think twice about one, is not only the initial cost of >>one, but the on going maintenance, and the cost of a periodic overhaul. > >Please. I've read all the electronic substitute makers' propaganda about >that. What they DON'T tell you is that speakers will need re-coning or >replacing every 10-15 years (more often near the coast), and that you = will >be REPLACING their instruments every 20-30 years. > >What costs MONEY is when a church puts in a pipe organ and DOESN'T keep = up >with the maintenance. That's the churches' fault, NOT the organs. > >>Plus the cost of climate control. > >We moved an 1898 Koehnken & Grimm from Holy Cross Monastery to the >Immaculata Church in Cincinnati in the 1970s. NONE of those old Catholic >barns were EVER heated much above 50 F. in the winter, and THEN only on >Sundays. It was 105 F. in the gallery the June we took it out, and the >humidity was about 90%. ALL it needed was the reservoir releathered and a = >few broken trackers fixed. The pallet leathers were PRISTINE. It probably = >hadn't seen a tuner in decades; it was still in reasonable tune when we >took it down. > >DRY central heating and A/C does more damage to organs, pianos, = furniture, >etc. than NOT having it. If a church chooses to run the A/C at 60 F. in >the summer and the furnace at 80 F. in the winter, it's because the = PEOPLE >want it that cold and that hot ... NOT the organs. > >A lot of churches here in Canada just >>can no longer afford it. Heck, they can't even fix the leaky roof, = 'caus >>they have already dipped into next years budget. Another problem here = is >>the lack of organists. Churches just are not going to spend big bucks = on >>an organ, if they can't get anyone to play it. > >But isn't that true of electronic substitutes as well as pipe organs? >>But that doesn't mean I don't think pipe organs are not worth it. >>Musically they are superior to digital instruments, or digital pianos, = or >>acoustic pianos for the traditional type of sacred music, and for = playing >>the organ literature. It is just that the market for new instruments up = >>here is so small, that it is discouraging. >>Arie V. >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>Arie Vandenberg >>Classic Organbuilders >>ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com >>Tel.: 905-475-1263 > >I have YET to see a church where there was a WILL to have a pipe organ = and >somebody to play it that DIDN'T succeed in both. > >My mother's church had a "catalog" TP Estey ... IT saw an organ tech ... >NEVER. When they built a larger church, the Estey (still playing) was >replaced by a small new pipe organ. The women had saved butter and egg >money for DECADES to buy it. They never CONSIDERED an electronic >substitute. It simply wasn't on the table. And this was in a little = mining >town of 2000 people. The church probably had 200 members at MOST. > >I don't want to put words into Seb Gluck's mouth, but he has OFTEN said >that it is the defeatist attitude of SOME organist that results in an >electronic substitute being installed, and/or downy-bird organists (my >words, not his) who just HAVE to have 100 equivalent electronic "ranks" = so >they can play (fall through?) the Widor toccata once or twice a year, >rather than having a small pipe organ that is built to accompany the >congregation and choir, which, after all, IS the job of a CHURCH organ. > >Yes, it's nice to have a recital organ, but not at the expense of having >pipes at ALL. Preludes and postludes are NOT that important, at least not = >in liturgical churches. MOST Roman Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran >churches can be served VERY well by a correctly designed, voiced, and >installed encased organ of 10-20 stops. > >There is a ONE-rank Wicks in a small Lutheran church here in San Diego. = It >wouldn't have been MY choice, but it accompanies the LITURGY quite = admirably. > >There is a FINE little 2m Johnson in the old downtown RC church in Elyria = >OH that accompanies the singing of upwards of 1000 people every Sunday. = It >is correctly voiced and scaled for the room, which has excellent = acoustics. > >There's a ONE-manual Johnson in the Evangelische Kirke in National City, >just south of me, that does an equally fine job ... tall, narrow, German >hall-church, good acoustics. > >There's a ONE-manual Ott (newish) in Founders' Chapel at the local >Catholic university. I HAVE played a recital on THAT organ, and it's a >MARVELOUS little work-horse. > >It simply is not good stewardship to install an electronic substitute for = >$50K-$100K that is going to have to be replaced every 20-30 years when = you >could recycle a marvelous 19th century pipe organ like the one Seb = rescued >in New York that will BE there for a couple of hundred years. > >People turn up their noses at small organs and recycled 19th century >organs. That's unfortunate, because they can make more MUSIC than ANY >amount of digitalia. It's the ORGANISTS who don't know what to do with >them ... among other things, there's no place to HIDE ... you can't pull >great handfuls of stops, crank up the reverb, and muck about and make a >half-way impressive sound like you can on an electronic substitute. > >You have to choose literature that suits the organ, and play it = MUSICALLY. > >I rest my case (grin). > >Cheers, > >Bud Bud, Just a couple of things. The organ at Sion - dates from about 1435 (not 1390 as originally thought) Only about 135 pipes from the original organ still exist. It = was added to in 1667, and the present organ really dates from a 1718 re-build. It was restored in 1954 by Kuhn. I will agree with you on one thing, it is old, or at least parts of it are = old. To say it is 1,000 years old un-altered and still playable is just baloney. At best it is close to 600 years old, with several attempts to enlarge, re-build, and restore it. I seriously doubt that it would play = at all without at least the latest restoration. I am not sure what the oldest pipe organ in existence would be, that has NEVER been touched other than basic maintenance and tuning, and is still = in playable condition. Second, I'm not sure what the problem is with digital organs, in terms of longevity. If an electronic organ lasts for 30 years, and didn't cost an = arm and a leg to fix over the years, my guess is that is less than what would have been paid on tuning and repairs of a modest pipe organ, of reasonable quality. In general an electronic organ is chosen because of financial considerations, not musical or longevity. My experience servicing electronic organs is that woofers with foam surrounds do need = to be replaced around the 20 year mark, and that problems start to increase = be of capacitors drying out, connectors corroding and failing. But there are = still quite a number of 40 year old electronic organs on the go. Do = people buy more expensive cars so that they last longer? I seriously doubt it. My neighbour gets a new Mercedes every 4 years, even though the older = one still runs fine, looks fine. But for some reason when it comes to churches, it has to be a pipe organ, because it lasts a long time. If musical considerations are most important, I agree a pipe organ is = still to be preferred. And then it will be most appreciated too, especially for = traditional sacred music. But if electronic organs are denigrated simply for being electronic devices, also remember many churches are going to other acoustic instruments - like guitars, pianos, drums etc. Arie V. P.S. If these organs Bud you are describing are so great, why are there = so many older pipe organs for sale, with no takers. Even the organ clearinghouse has dozens of them, listed for months if not for years. = Just wondering. Is the market for pipe organs then so small? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263