PipeChat Digest #4560 - Tuesday, June 15, 2004
 
Digest Request
  by "Bill" <bill.hauser@cox.net>
Re: Digest Request
  by "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org>
Re: NEWS ON DAVID MESSINEO? (x post)
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Re: Ocean Grove Review
  by "brade" <beveland@millsauto.com>
Single Expression
  by "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net>
Re: Ocean Grove Review
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Pipechat IRC tonight!
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: Single Expression
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
Re: Single Expression
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: PipeChat Digest #4559 - 06/14/04
  by "Larry Wheelock" <llwheels@mac.com>
RE: Single Expression
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Prairie Home Companion
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Lifts {x-posted]
  by "Charlie Lester" <crlester@137.com>
Re: Platform lifts
  by <gdeboer@bluemarble.net>
Re: Single Expression
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
Messineo/Reuter
  by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com>
RE: Single Expression
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Single Expression
  by "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>
hydraulic lift
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
 

(back) Subject: Digest Request From: "Bill" <bill.hauser@cox.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 05:50:07 -0500           If anyone has Digest No. 4557 from Saturday 6/12, please forward it to bill.hauser@cox.net   It seems I never got it.   Many thanks.            
(back) Subject: Re: Digest Request From: "Administrator" <admin@pipechat.org> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 06:23:09 -0500   At 5:50 AM -0500 06/14/04, Bill wrote: >If anyone has Digest No. 4557 from Saturday 6/12, please forward it to >bill.hauser@cox.net > >It seems I never got it.   Requests like this should be sent to the Administration address and not the list. I have forwarded the Digest so please don't everyone send him one.   David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat   http://www.pipechat.org mailto:admin@pipechat.org  
(back) Subject: Re: NEWS ON DAVID MESSINEO? (x post) From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 07:28:41 -0500   At 12:12 AM -0400 06/13/04, ScottFop@aol.com wrote: >Hello all > >I do hope I am wrong, but I have received news that organist David >Messineo was found dead this morning at his home from a massive >heart attack. I believe he was only 42 or 43 years of age. I do >know that his playing is outstanding. > >Does anyone have anymore news on this???   Scott   You are not wrong on this - see http://www.nycago.org/   David  
(back) Subject: Re: Ocean Grove Review From: "brade" <beveland@millsauto.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:16:27 -0500   I once heard that Mr. Keeler is NOT a fan of the organ and forbids its = usage in the theatre he owns in St. Paul, MN. Anyone know if this is true?   Brad Eveland     Subject: Ocean Grove Review     > Sadly there was no room for the pipe organ on today's "Prairie Home > Companion."    
(back) Subject: Single Expression From: "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:16:40 -0400   Chatters,   I apologize for posting this to two lists, but I don't think the lists entirely overlap in personnel. Anyway, due to some budgetary concerns, I may have to make some adjustments to my home organ project. One of the possibilities is the option of enclosing the entire organ in a single chamber. Actually, the organ will be housed in a space of about 12' x 12' with a pair of openings into a much larger room into which the pipes will speak. I had thought about putting a swell box around the couple swell chests. This might be a little awkward to do. Anyway, my other option is to simply put swell shutters over the two openings. There is not a way to divide this space into two spaces each with its own opening.   What this option would do is cause the organ - 8' diapason and all - to be under a single expression. I had entertained the possibility of having = the 8' Open diapason to be exposed, but that became cost-prohibitive.   If the ranks are balanced appropriately relatively to each other, do you = see much of a problem (musically) with having the whole organ under single expression?   Great: (5 rank pitman chest) 8' Open diapason 8' Rohrflote 8' Salicional (Sw) 8' Celeste (Sw) 4' Octave 4' Hohlflote 4' Salicet (Sw ext) 2' Geigen (Sw)   Swell: (unit chests) 8' Geigen 8' Stopped flute 8' Salicional 8' Celeste 4' Harmonic flute 4' Geigen (ext) 2 2/3 Nasard (ext) 2' Harmonic flute (ext) 1 3/5 Tierce 8' Oboe   Pedal: 16' Bourdon (12 pipes) 8' Geigen 8' Stopped flute 8' Salicional 4' Geigen 4' Stopped flute 2' Harmonic flute 16' Contra oboe (waiting for the 16 extension) 4' Oboe   Thanks, Keith    
(back) Subject: Re: Ocean Grove Review From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:20:43 -0400   That would be terrible if true. But, just so we all know who it is we are talking about, maybe we should spell his name correctly: Keillor.   Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu       on 6/14/04 9:16 AM, brade at beveland@millsauto.com wrote:   > I once heard that Mr. Keeler is NOT a fan of the organ and forbids its = usage > in the theatre he owns in St. Paul, MN. Anyone know if this is true? > > Brad Eveland > > > Subject: Ocean Grove Review > > >> Sadly there was no room for the pipe organ on today's "Prairie Home >> Companion." > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Pipechat IRC tonight! From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:40:22 -0400   Our regular Monday evening Pipechat IRC will be on as usual this evening from 9.00 to whenever, - come and let us know how you are doing!   It is Flag Day in the USA, come and wave the Flag!   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: Re: Single Expression From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:08:26 -0500   I have played and maintained small organs that are entirely in one expression box. I think its a great idea, when you bring cost savings = into the equation (when applicable). Sure, it would be nice to have some unenclosed pipework, too, but often there are major complications to = making this happen, as in your case. One problem with everything under = expression is you have no pipe facade. Visual problem only (though you might be able =   to find some attractive pipes to use as dummies). The musical problem = with it is that you can't significantly change the tone with the swell pedal, = but only volume. But there will be times when you appreciate being able to quiet down the whole organ equally. So I wouldn't say its a musical disadvantage... there are musical advantages and disadvantages. I = wouldn't worry about it. Even the largest organs have compromises. You have to balance cost with practicality.   One of my pet peeves is when builders put part of a rank IN the box, and part of it OUT of the box. I say, if you can't put an entire rank in the box, put the whole thing outside. Generally speaking, when split up this way, you have to leave the box open if you are using that stop. Very annoying.   Andy     > > If the ranks are balanced appropriately relatively to each other, do > you see much of a problem (musically) with having the whole organ > under single expression?   > Thanks, > Keith     A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Single Expression From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 09:18:02 -0700   The only real problem I see with single expression is not being able to have the enclosed Swell reed chorus express THROUGH at least the unenclosed Great 8' Open Diapason, if not the whole Great. But since you don't HAVE a full Swell reed chorus, that's not an issue. The other problem, of course, CAN be balancing solo and accompaniment combinations, but voicing can take care of that.   19th century builders often placed the Swell basses tubed off on the back of the outside of the swell box; I never noticed any particular problem with THAT, as bass sounds are more non-directional; being behind the box, the bass notes didn't jump out at you when the box was closed. I think I would prefer that to the practice of providing a single "Stopt Diapason Bass" for all the Swell flues. Of course, that's CHEAPER (grin), if money is a consideration.   Cheers,   Bud          
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4559 - 06/14/04 From: "Larry Wheelock" <llwheels@mac.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:02:55 -0500     On Jun 14, 2004, at 4:01 AM, Charlie Lester wrote:   > Hello, can someone point me to a source for a console > hydraulic lift, and a ballpark cost? ...<snip>... but if a hydraulic > lift is > cost-competitive that may be the way to go.   I desperately wanted one of these when we put the new console in a pit at Kenwood -- never mind that we have steps on both sides of the console for access. The church wouldn't go for it. Perhaps that was because I really wanted it, not out of necessity, but to go with my cape and diamond-studded Organmaster shoes, and the multi-colored spotlight that I envisioned being a part of the package. <sigh>   Shortly after, I saw one advertised for sale here in Wisconsin. The ad said that it was new, and had never been installed due to an error in measuring the installation. If I recall correctly, the owner was "sacrificing" it in the ballpark of $2000.   Larry Wheelock Director of Music Ministries Kenwood United Methodist Church Milwaukee, Wisconsin musicdirector@kenwood-umc.org  
(back) Subject: RE: Single Expression From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:42:22 +1200     >The musical problem with it is that you can't significantly change the tone with the swell pedal, = but   only volume.   I don't believe this is so. A good Swell box significantly chokes off the high frequencies, making a significant difference to harmonically rich sounds like strings and reeds. Flutes are less affected.   Swell boxes make pipes difficult to get at for tuning, and in a small = organ the effect of putting the shutters back after tuning can put some pipes out-of-tune through different air patterns in the box. Too, a box is not cheap, and I'd rather have an extra stop, a soft one, than enclose pipes = in a small organ.   Ross   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 12/06/2004    
(back) Subject: Prairie Home Companion From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:43:58 -0500   I apparently have not taken my be-nice pills today, but this is a sore subject from a former Keillor and PHC fan.   Garrison Keillor does not like the organ and minimizes its use when he doesn't ignore it altogether. Whenever it has been used, it has been relegated to accompanying him or to less than thirty-second slots. He furthermore has an overabundant fondness for the sound of his own voice that trumps all other talent, including his own, on the show. Whoever informed him that he could sing should be drawn and quartered - the value of the program has dwindled since he has decided to sing every five minutes. That could be why he was not as enthralled with Anonymous 4 - he couldn't sing lead.   How I long for the days when he didn't feel the need to remind us he is the star of the show, and he really was.   Apparently I need to take a double-dose and catch up on the meds. Forgive me the vitriole.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of brade   I once heard that Mr. Keeler is NOT a fan of the organ and forbids its usage in the theatre he owns in St. Paul, MN. Anyone know if this is true?          
(back) Subject: Lifts {x-posted] From: "Charlie Lester" <crlester@137.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:10:09 -0700   Hello, I have gotten quite an education about lifts. Found out there are other types besides hydraulic, e.g., electric. Then I was told of a device called a "Barton 4-Post Lift." Never heard of that one, either.   An "off the shelf" electric scissor-lift seems the way we are probably going to go, if it's cost effective vs. hiring a contractor to cover the pit. With the rates contractors charge today, it'll probably be a close race...   Thanks for all the replies, at any rate.     ~ C      
(back) Subject: Re: Platform lifts From: <gdeboer@bluemarble.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:53:23 -0500   Investigate a scissor lift, they can be either hydraulic or mechanical acti= on=20 by means of ball/acme screw combination and small electric motor. The mechanical one is probably lower cost and definitely quieter. Scissor lifts are popular in factories/warehouse situations. You should be able to find a good used too. Hydraulics are noisy with pump/elec. motor combo and you should consider th= e=20 smell and enviro impact of hydraulic oil. (Eventual leaks, etc.) Good luck.   Gary     Quoting Larry Wheelock <llwheels@mac.com>:   >=20 > On Jun 14, 2004, at 4:01 AM, Charlie Lester wrote: >=20 > > Hello, can someone point me to a source for a console > > hydraulic lift, and a ballpark cost? ...<snip>... but if a hydraulic=20 > > lift is > > cost-competitive that may be the way to go. >=20 > I desperately wanted one of these when we put the new console in a pit=20 > at Kenwood -- never mind that we have steps on both sides of the=20 > console for access. > The church wouldn't go for it. Perhaps that was because I really wanted= =20 > it, not out of necessity, but to go with my cape and diamond-studded=20 > Organmaster shoes, and the multi-colored spotlight that I envisioned=20 > being a part of the package. <sigh> >=20 > Shortly after, I saw one advertised for sale here in Wisconsin. The ad=20 > said that it was new, and had never been installed due to an error in=20 > measuring the installation. If I recall correctly, the owner was=20 > "sacrificing" it in the ballpark of $2000. >=20 > Larry Wheelock > Director of Music Ministries > Kenwood United Methodist Church > Milwaukee, Wisconsin > musicdirector@kenwood-umc.org >=20       >  
(back) Subject: Re: Single Expression From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:29:32 -0500   > 19th century builders often placed the Swell basses tubed off on the > back of the outside of the swell box; I never noticed any particular > problem with THAT, as bass sounds are more non-directional; being > behind the box, the bass notes didn't jump out at you when the box > was closed. I think I would prefer that to the practice of providing > a single "Stopt Diapason Bass" for all the Swell flues. Of course, > that's CHEAPER > (grin), if money is a consideration. Yep... true... I have experienced this system of basses behind the swell = box and it is not so bad when they're soft bourdons or something, especially = 16' pitched ones.   >>The musical problem with it is that you can't significantly change the >>tone with the swell pedal, but only volume.   >I don't believe this is so. A good Swell box significantly chokes off the >high frequencies, making a significant difference to harmonically rich >sounds like strings and reeds. Flutes are less affected.   Also true, but you know what I mean. You can't be playing on a manual = with enclosed stops and unenclosed stops playing together, and adjust the = volume of some of the stops and not others.   >Swell boxes make pipes difficult to get at for tuning, and in a small = organ >the effect of putting the shutters back after tuning can put some pipes >out-of-tune through different air patterns in the box. Too, a box is not >cheap, and I'd rather have an extra stop, a soft one, than enclose pipes = in >a small organ.   Ah, but this is the beauty of putting the entire organ under expression. = If its in a chamber, you already have the box. You just need the shutters = and actuator. Granted, this is the most expensive part of the whole thing, = but used pneumatic actuators are in every organ buff's barn (I've got a couple =   FOR SALE), so that's a start for a home project. Probably still have to custom build the swell front in most cases. And it doesn't affect maintenance at all in most chamberized cases, whereas a separate swell box =   for only part of the organ _would_. Won't affect tuning if you don't have =   any pipes too close to the shutters or to the access door. This is easy = to do when the whole organ is under expression; harder to do when part of the =   organ is under expression. This is all assuming your access door is not where you are putting the swell shades. Having to remove swell shades to get into the organ is a real pain, though not so bad if they are easy to access and remove.     A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com    
(back) Subject: Messineo/Reuter From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:39:27 EDT   This is truly a heartbreaking week for organists. Dr. Messineo was a fine =   musician.   May I also add that one of my close organist friends, Shirley Reuter, a long-time member of the Ocean County NJ AGO, was murdered in her home on = June 9th by a "person in need", whom she graciously assisted. She was 77 years = old.   As she had been an interim organist at my present church several years = ago, I have decided to dedicate this Sunday's organ and choral music to her = memory (the choir has agreed to sing ONE more Sunday, in her honor).   PRELUDE: "Recollection (Soliloquy No. 2)", David Conte. OFFERTORY (8:00): "Jesu, Meine Freude", BWV 610, JSBach. CHORAL OFFERTORY (10:30): "O How Amiable", R Vaughan Williams. MUSIC FOR COMMUNION: "Priere a Notre-Dame" (Suite Gothique), L Boellmann. CLOSING VOLUNTARY: "Grand Choeur", T. Dubois.   Grace and peace to you all.   Neil Brown    
(back) Subject: RE: Single Expression From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:44:44 +1200     >Also true, but you know what I mean. You can't be playing on a manual = with   enclosed stops and unenclosed stops playing together, and adjust the = volume of some of the stops and not others.   Thanks for explaining - I wasn't aware this is what you meant.   >Ah, but this is the beauty of putting the entire organ under expression. If its in a chamber, you already have the box.   This is so, but I've seen very few enclosed divisions where the shutters open wide enough to give an unenclosed bloom to the tone. I really do = prefer unenclosed tone.   >You just need the shutters and actuator. Granted, this is the most expensive part of the whole thing, = but used pneumatic actuators are in every organ buff's barn (I've got a couple =   FOR SALE), so that's a start for a home project.   In my situation, enclosure would be silly, as I have plenty of floor area but not more than between 8ft and 13ft in height. I don't want anything to mask anything else.   > Probably still have to custom build the swell front in most cases. And it doesn't affect maintenance at all in most chamberized cases, whereas a separate swell box =   for only part of the organ _would_. Won't affect tuning if you don't have =   any pipes too close to the shutters or to the access door.   I was thinking more of the sort you get when you have the whole instrument of between 2 and 5 ranks, where the box is barely big enough to get the pipes in, let alone provide an access door. If it was a WurliTzer-type instrument, I would say enclosure is essential. Again, my own instrument = is not of that kind and would lose a lot of tone.   >Having to remove swell shades to get into the organ is a real pain,   Sure is. Especially when the shutters are vertical and maybe 9ft high and the builder didn't think of where they might be put.   Ross tells himself - don't generalise.   Ross     A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com   "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org     --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 12/06/2004   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.705 / Virus Database: 461 - Release Date: 12/06/2004    
(back) Subject: Re: Single Expression From: "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 19:53:22 -0500   HI, Back in the 80's I had a 2m/8r Kimball theatre organ, circa 1921. I had the chamber in an adjoining bedroom speaking into the adjacent room = through an opening I made in the wall for the shutters.. This organ had 12 expression blades and opened one a time with the shades graduated in = width.. The 8 ranks did very well with this setup with all under expression. In = my own opinion, in a small home situation the organ will sound much more cohesive in a single chamber situation. Jim James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Artisan of Wood WWW.JamesGrebe.com 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 pianoman@accessus.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:29 PM Subject: Re: Single Expression     > > 19th century builders often placed the Swell basses tubed off on the > > back of the outside of the swell box; I never noticed any particular > > problem with THAT, as bass sounds are more non-directional; being > > behind the box, the bass notes didn't jump out at you when the box > > was closed. I think I would prefer that to the practice of providing > > a single "Stopt Diapason Bass" for all the Swell flues. Of course, > > that's CHEAPER > > (grin), if money is a consideration. > > Yep... true... I have experienced this system of basses behind the swell box > and it is not so bad when they're soft bourdons or something, especially 16' > pitched ones. > > >>The musical problem with it is that you can't significantly change the > >>tone with the swell pedal, but only volume. > > >I don't believe this is so. A good Swell box significantly chokes off = the > >high frequencies, making a significant difference to harmonically rich > >sounds like strings and reeds. Flutes are less affected. > > Also true, but you know what I mean. You can't be playing on a manual with > enclosed stops and unenclosed stops playing together, and adjust the volume > of some of the stops and not others. > > >Swell boxes make pipes difficult to get at for tuning, and in a small organ > >the effect of putting the shutters back after tuning can put some pipes > >out-of-tune through different air patterns in the box. Too, a box is = not > >cheap, and I'd rather have an extra stop, a soft one, than enclose = pipes in > >a small organ. > > Ah, but this is the beauty of putting the entire organ under expression. If > its in a chamber, you already have the box. You just need the shutters and > actuator. Granted, this is the most expensive part of the whole thing, but > used pneumatic actuators are in every organ buff's barn (I've got a = couple > FOR SALE), so that's a start for a home project. Probably still have to > custom build the swell front in most cases. And it doesn't affect > maintenance at all in most chamberized cases, whereas a separate swell = box > for only part of the organ _would_. Won't affect tuning if you don't = have > any pipes too close to the shutters or to the access door. This is easy to > do when the whole organ is under expression; harder to do when part of = the > organ is under expression. This is all assuming your access door is not > where you are putting the swell shades. Having to remove swell shades = to > get into the organ is a real pain, though not so bad if they are easy to > access and remove. > > > A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service > PO Box 111 > Burlington, VT 05402 > (802)578-3936 > Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >      
(back) Subject: hydraulic lift From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:41:18 -0500   Charlie--a hydraulic lift is a hydraulic lift. Call an elevator company = or an auto parts store or a business that provides equipment to auto repair shops. Farm equipment dealers might be able to fix you up, too. All of = the above deal heavily with hydraulics. Oh yes, convalescent supply houses (they furnish hydraulic lifts for wheel chair bound patients.   Dennis Steckley & A Six-Pack of Cats