PipeChat Digest #4575 - Wednesday, June 23, 2004
 
Re: A slightly different view in response to Malcom's opine . . .
  by <DudelK@aol.com>
Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
RE: Anglican funeral rites
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
RE: Anglican funeral rites
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: A slightly different view in response to Malcom's opine . . . From: <DudelK@aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:45:50 EDT   In a message dated 6/22/2004 8:11:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, manderusa@earthlink.net writes:     > Is it not true that > most Lutheran congregations attach rather more importance to their Pipe > Organs *on average* than comparable Anglican establishments?   That may have been true at some point in some places, and surely there are =   examples today, but overall (as a recovering Lutheran who spent about half = his life in the midwest and has been living out the past years on the east = coast as an Episcopalian of sorts), I rather doubt that. Otherwise why would so = many Lutheran musicians and clergy who cared about music and liturgy and such = have made the switch over the years once they discovered the Episcopal church. Actually, these days, there's a lot of schlock in both camps, and the = situation doesn't seem to be getting any better. And much of the vaunted Lutheran = heritage was a myth in much of the midwest where pietistic hymns and other gems of questionable musical and theological value were the rule rather than the exception. At least in the years when I was growing up there and went to = Lutheran prep school and college.   Just one person's anecdotal impression. No need to get out the flame = throwers -- save them for the creme brulee!   And bravo to Felix and the powers that be at Gettysburg!  
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:41:29 EDT   Dear List,   Our Anglo-Catholic parish has a rich history when it comes to funeral liturgy--some of it very traditional via the influence of the Cowley = Fathers, some of it innovative. When requested, the choir is present (the same is true of weddings, by the way). What is particularly interesting, however, is our tradition of keeping a ca. 24 Hour Vigil immediately preceeding the = funeral with the body (in the church) during which the entire Psalter is sung or said = (depending upon individual ablilities) with full participation of the congregation. = An ad-hoc Rota is created in order for all those who wish to participate to = have an opportunity to keep vigil. I believe that this practice has Orthodox = roots, and how exactly it came to St. John's is a question for our Parish = Historian or for the Brothers (who are no longer in residence, alas). However, I = find this to be a very moving addition to traditional Anglican rites. Our = funeral customary should be available in the near future on our website, for those =   interested.   Pax, Bill H. St. John's, Bowdoin St., Boston  
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:52:51 -0700   As I recall, it's a Benedictine / Cistercian custom, which is probably where OSJE got it.   I believe VERY STRONGLY that the wake of communicants should be held IN THE CHURCH in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament; as late as the late 1970s or early 1980s that was still the custom in anglo-catholic churches in the Diocese of San Diego for priest's funerals.   Cheers,   Bud   DERREINETOR@aol.com wrote:   > Dear List, > > Our Anglo-Catholic parish has a rich history when it comes to funeral > liturgy--some of it very traditional via the influence of the Cowley > Fathers, some of it innovative. When requested, the choir is present > (the same is true of weddings, by the way). What is particularly > interesting, however, is our tradition of keeping a ca. 24 Hour Vigil > immediately preceeding the funeral with the body (in the church) during > which the entire Psalter is sung or said (depending upon individual > ablilities) with full participation of the congregation. An ad-hoc Rota > is created in order for all those who wish to participate to have an > opportunity to keep vigil. I believe that this practice has Orthodox > roots, and how exactly it came to St. John's is a question for our > Parish Historian or for the Brothers (who are no longer in residence, > alas). However, I find this to be a very moving addition to traditional > Anglican rites. Our funeral customary should be available in the near > future on our website, for those interested. > > Pax, > Bill H. > St. John's, Bowdoin St., Boston      
(back) Subject: RE: Anglican funeral rites From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:00:18 +1200     >I believe VERY STRONGLY that the wake of communicants should be held IN THE CHURCH in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament; as late as the late 1970s or early 1980s that was still the custom in anglo-catholic churches in the Diocese of San Diego for priest's funerals.   Even when Director of Music of the most Anglo-Catholic parish in New = Zealand many years ago, I'd never heard of this practice.   You believe very strongly in this ritual, you say: why? What is it = supposed to mean? On what Anglican grounds can it be justified? Where did it come from and when?   Please, answers to these if you can. I'm genuinely curious, never having heard of such a thing in either Anglican or RC churches.   Ross   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 18/06/2004    
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:09:25 EDT   Bud,   The wake and the recitation/chanting of the Psalter in Vigil takes place = in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel at St. John's, with the body present. Thanks = for the edification on the source for this custom. Pax, BH  
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:17:21 -0700   1. Because that's where it was held originally, before the rise of "funeral homes." The body was washed and brought to church; Vespers, Compline, and then Mattins of the Dead were sung at intervals during the night, followed by Lauds, Prime and Terce the next morning. Following Terce, the Requiem Mass was sung.   It's obvious from the abrupt manner in which the Prayer Book Burial Office ends that Mass is to follow, and the American Prayer Book has provided for that since 1928 at least. The Burial Office can appropriately be sung as Vespers of the Dead at the wake.   2. It's an opportunity for the mourners to commend the soul of the departed to the sacramental Presence of Christ in the Tabernacle.   3. It avoids the use of those AWFUL "viewing rooms" in mortuaries, and gives the parish more of an opportunity to be involved ... in our parish, the Guilds provided food and drink and childcare for the wake.   Unless it's changed in recent years, it's still the virtually UNIVERSAL custom in anglo-catholic AND RC churches for bishops, priests, deacons, monks and nuns in the USA. It's more rare these days for lay-people, since wakes are being replaced by cremation and Memorial Masses, often a week or more after the person's death.   I remember going with the men of my choir and the parish clergy to the cathedral to sing Vespers of the dead when the RC bishop of Cleveland died in the 1960s. He was laid out in full episcopal regalia on a catafalque; the body was placed in a coffin and entombed in the crypt following the funeral.   Cheers,   Bud       TheShieling wrote:   >>I believe VERY STRONGLY that the wake of communicants should be held IN > > THE CHURCH in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament; as late as the late =   > 1970s or early 1980s that was still the custom in anglo-catholic > churches in the Diocese of San Diego for priest's funerals. > > Even when Director of Music of the most Anglo-Catholic parish in New = Zealand > many years ago, I'd never heard of this practice. > > You believe very strongly in this ritual, you say: why? What is it = supposed > to mean? On what Anglican grounds can it be justified? Where did it come > from and when? > > Please, answers to these if you can. I'm genuinely curious, never having > heard of such a thing in either Anglican or RC churches. > > Ross > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 18/06/2004 > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:26:22 EDT   Bud, Excellent clarification. It is now clear that our customary takes a = monastic approach for clergy, religious and laypersons alike. It reminds me that = St. John's is a highly rarefied place, and to that, Deo Gratias. Pax, BH  
(back) Subject: RE: Anglican funeral rites From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:42:41 +1200   Thanks thus far, Bud, but I'm still curious.   >1. Because that's where it was held originally, before the rise of=20 "funeral homes." The body was washed and brought to church; Vespers,=20 Compline, and then Mattins of the Dead were sung at intervals during the =   night, followed by Lauds, Prime and Terce the next morning. Following=20 Terce, the Requiem Mass was sung.   That would be an RC custom then, and not Anglican?=20   >It's obvious from the abrupt manner in which the Prayer Book Burial=20 Office ends that Mass is to follow, and the American Prayer Book has=20 provided for that since 1928 at least. The Burial Office can=20 appropriately be sung as Vespers of the Dead at the wake.   I don't know what your book does, but ours certainly gives no = implication of Holy Communion to follow a funeral service. In fact, this would be exceptionally rare, and just as rare at the funeral of a clergy bod.=20   >2. It's an opportunity for the mourners to commend the soul of the=20 departed to the sacramental Presence of Christ in the Tabernacle.   This has me curious: how did that become an "Anglican" and how can it be justified? If the person has died, then the soul of that person is in = the nearer presence of God. I don't understand how the presence of the = Reserved Sacrament can make any difference, real or imagined, to that. Surely, we commend someone to God, not to a "sacramental Presence"??   >3. It avoids the use of those AWFUL "viewing rooms" in mortuaries, and=20 gives the parish more of an opportunity to be involved ... in our=20 parish, the Guilds provided food and drink and childcare for the wake.   "Viewing rooms" are indeed awful. After we had identified our son and = his fianc=E9e (they were tragically killed in a car accident caused by = another car) in the hospital, we saw our two in the undertaker's rooms, but = would not have wanted any other kind of thing until the funeral service = itself. Only once in 27 years ministry has anyone ever asked for the body to be = left in the church overnight, and I had no problem with that, and there was = no reserved sacrament nearby.   >Unless it's changed in recent years, it's still the virtually UNIVERSAL =   custom in anglo-catholic AND RC churches for bishops, priests, deacons,=20 monks and nuns in the USA. It's more rare these days for lay-people,=20 since wakes are being replaced by cremation and Memorial Masses, often a =   week or more after the person's death.   So, are you saying the A-C are copying an RC practice? Where is its = Anglican origin, if it is a USA thing?   These days, it is increasingly common here in all churches for the = Committal to take place in the church and for no one, or just the very immediate family, to go to the crematorium or graveside. As these latter places = are usually miles away, in many ways people find it far easier and more = helpful to stay behind to be with their family and friends for the cuppa = straight after the service. It's also a lot less strain for the elderly, and = avoids a long wait for those not going to the graveside or crematorium.=20 As I understand it, the Committal at the graveside was of course just = across the churchyard in England of old, when the church was surrounded by = graves. These days, the detachment of the Committal becomes infinitely greater = and seems to make little sense.=20   Does the USA still have the practice of having a clergyman's coffin = facing one way in the church, and laypeople's coffins the other way? It's still done here, with the placement being done by the undertaker (before the congregation arrives, perhaps half an hour before the service begins. Sometimes here, too, where there is room, a priest's coffin will be = placed much closer to the altar than the foot of the chancel steps. At one = funeral I took, where the deceased was a dearly-loved lay-reader of very great length of service, and regarded as a dear friend by everyone, I got the coffin facing the same way as a clergyman's does, and explained to the family and the congregation why: that this person's ministry to other = people was as profound as any priest's. Delighted approval from everyone.   Ross   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 18/06/2004 =20    
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:06:50 -0700       TheShieling wrote:   > Thanks thus far, Bud, but I'm still curious. > > >>1. Because that's where it was held originally, before the rise of > > "funeral homes." The body was washed and brought to church; Vespers, > Compline, and then Mattins of the Dead were sung at intervals during the =   > night, followed by Lauds, Prime and Terce the next morning. Following > Terce, the Requiem Mass was sung. > > That would be an RC custom then, and not Anglican?   I can't say at what point it changed in Anglicanism ... certainly there are references to taking the body to church (but not the singing of the Office) in England WELL after the Reformation. I'm sorry, I don't have the citations at hand ... some of them are in 18th and 19th century = novels.   In the rural South of the USA, the wake moved first to the "front parlor" (which was seldom opened except for Christmas, Easter, weddings and funerals) of the home, and then to the funeral home (except, of course, for old-fashioned anglo-catholics, who were still laid out in the church).   > > >>It's obvious from the abrupt manner in which the Prayer Book Burial > > Office ends that Mass is to follow, and the American Prayer Book has > provided for that since 1928 at least. The Burial Office can > appropriately be sung as Vespers of the Dead at the wake. > > I don't know what your book does, but ours certainly gives no = implication of > Holy Communion to follow a funeral service. In fact, this would be > exceptionally rare, and just as rare at the funeral of a clergy bod.   Clergy funerals, high, broad, or low, almost invariably include the Mass here, and the 1982 American Prayer Book PRESUMES that there will be a Mass at ALL funerals in the NORMAL order of things.   > > >>2. It's an opportunity for the mourners to commend the soul of the > > departed to the sacramental Presence of Christ in the Tabernacle. > > This has me curious: how did that become an "Anglican" and how can it be > justified? If the person has died, then the soul of that person is in = the > nearer presence of God. I don't understand how the presence of the = Reserved > Sacrament can make any difference, real or imagined, to that. Surely, we > commend someone to God, not to a "sacramental Presence"?? > God is everywhere; God is present in the Tabernacle in a special way, by Christ's own promise. I suppose it's as much a comfort to the mourners as anything ... the Master's at home; Jesus is there to comfort our sorrow. Alaskan Eskimos hang a pair of moccasins by the tabernacle to indicate the same thing: the Master of the house is at home. > >>3. It avoids the use of those AWFUL "viewing rooms" in mortuaries, and > > gives the parish more of an opportunity to be involved ... in our > parish, the Guilds provided food and drink and childcare for the wake. > > "Viewing rooms" are indeed awful. After we had identified our son and = his > fianc=E9e (they were tragically killed in a car accident caused by = another > car) in the hospital, we saw our two in the undertaker's rooms, but = would > not have wanted any other kind of thing until the funeral service = itself. > Only once in 27 years ministry has anyone ever asked for the body to be = left > in the church overnight, and I had no problem with that, and there was = no > reserved sacrament nearby. > > >>Unless it's changed in recent years, it's still the virtually UNIVERSAL > > custom in anglo-catholic AND RC churches for bishops, priests, deacons, > monks and nuns in the USA. It's more rare these days for lay-people, > since wakes are being replaced by cremation and Memorial Masses, often a =   > week or more after the person's death. > > So, are you saying the A-C are copying an RC practice? Where is its = Anglican > origin, if it is a USA thing?   As I said, it persisted in England well AFTER the Reformation. Anglo-catholics take a different view, Ross ... it is a CATHOLIC custom, and we are CATHOLICS ... never mind who thought of it first (grin). > > These days, it is increasingly common here in all churches for the = Committal > to take place in the church and for no one, or just the very immediate > family, to go to the crematorium or graveside. As these latter places = are > usually miles away, in many ways people find it far easier and more = helpful > to stay behind to be with their family and friends for the cuppa = straight > after the service. It's also a lot less strain for the elderly, and = avoids a > long wait for those not going to the graveside or crematorium. > As I understand it, the Committal at the graveside was of course just = across > the churchyard in England of old, when the church was surrounded by = graves. > These days, the detachment of the Committal becomes infinitely greater = and > seems to make little sense.   Virtually everybody goes to the grave in the Deep South (the most tradition-bound and conservative part of the USA); if the Committal is of ashes to a columbarium, it usually takes place BEFORE the Memorial Mass in other parts of the country, and is seldom attended by anyone but the priest and immediate family.   We sang the Committal from "Man that is born of a woman" through the Kyries and Lord's Prayer "under shelter of the church" if the nearby cemetery wasn't the grave site.   > > Does the USA still have the practice of having a clergyman's coffin = facing > one way in the church, and laypeople's coffins the other way? It's still > done here, with the placement being done by the undertaker (before the > congregation arrives, perhaps half an hour before the service begins. > Sometimes here, too, where there is room, a priest's coffin will be = placed > much closer to the altar than the foot of the chancel steps. At one = funeral > I took, where the deceased was a dearly-loved lay-reader of very great > length of service, and regarded as a dear friend by everyone, I got the > coffin facing the same way as a clergyman's does, and explained to the > family and the congregation why: that this person's ministry to other = people > was as profound as any priest's. Delighted approval from everyone. > > Ross >   Yes. A pastor faces his people, even in death. A bishop, priest, or deacon is laid out with his head to the altar, in the midst of the quire; a lay-person is laid out with his feet to the altar at the chancel step. I guess the origin of that is that pre-reformation, the quire was "within the rails" and considered part of the Sanctuary ... that's also why only men and boys could sing, and had to receive First Tonsure, making them Minor Clerics.   The same still obtains in some monasteries today ... the communion rail is at the BACK of the church, in the front of the "gentiles' court" or visitors' area in the west end, the rest of the church being taken up by the monastic choir stalls. I was amused at the big Trappist abbey in Kentucky to find that the communion rail was in the front of the WEST GALLERY, though I think they have since changed and allow men (only) to approach the altar. The same monastery has a tunnel from the gate-house to the stairwell leading to the West Gallery of the monastery church to allow women to hear Mass. Only women in the party of a ruling sovereign are allowed on the main floor of the church ... when the Governor of Kentucky came to visit, the female members of his staff were allowed to tour the main floor of the church (chuckle).   Cheers,   Bud