PipeChat Digest #4576 - Wednesday, June 23, 2004
 
Re: Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
RE: Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: Anglican funeral rites
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by "Mari" <mreive@tampabay.rr.com>
Re: Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net>
Lemare's "Celebrated" Andantino in D flat
  by "James M. Dahlgren" <jmdkimo@yahoo.com>
Amazin' Grace
  by "James M. Dahlgren" <jmdkimo@yahoo.com>
Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: Lemare's "Celebrated" Andantino in D flat
  by "Philip Thibault" <pthibaul@maine.rr.com>
Re: Amazin' Grace
  by <ContraReed@aol.com>
Re: Amazin' Grace
  by "M Collins" <mcoll@panix.com>
RE: Anglican funeral rites
  by "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net>
RE: Anglican funeral rites
  by "Milo R. Shepherd" <mrstwin2@cox.net>
Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by "Richard Smith" <sailnut@worldnet.att.net>
Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Lemare's "Celebrated" Andantino in D flat
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: Anglican funeral rites
  by "Cole" <rcolev@woh.rr.com>
up, down, all around
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
Estey Mystery Organist
  by "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com>
Estey console
  by "black" <gblack@ocslink.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 05:29:00 EDT   >3. It avoids the use of those AWFUL "viewing rooms" in mortuaries, and >gives the parish more of an opportunity to be involved ... in our >parish, the Guilds provided food and drink and childcare for the wake.     Those "awful" viewing rooms in funeral homes actually serve a purpose....back in the days when people were moving from small towns into = cities, homes in the cities were smaller than country homes and apartments were popular. = They didn't have the room to have funeral ceremonies, so enterprising "undertakers" as we were known back then, built funeral homes, so = families could gather and have funerals in "funeral homes" since back "in the day," many of the =   pre-funeral activities like viewings were done at the home. One thing = led to another, and now funerals held in the funeral home are common place. = Families choose to hold everything there, just as a matter of convenience, because =   it's a one stop shop. I personally think the body should be brought back = to the deceased's church, but that's because I'm also a church musician. Most funeral directors don't always think that way. They don't make extra = money for doing the service at the funeral home versus doing it at the church, they = just don't think like a church worker does. They don't understand. >the body was placed in a coffin Nothing grates on my last nerve more than wrong terminology. A coffin is =   the six sided, old-fashioned, wider at the top, narrow at the feet, burial = container. A CASKET is the rectangular parallel sided, burial container, = common place in the US and Canada. Coffins are still more common in Europe and Great Britiain. There is a difference, but here in the states, doffins = haven't been used for years. You can find them if you search for them, but they = are few and far between, and most funeral homes do not stock them, they are = made by cabinet makers who do custom work. Just a little trivia. Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: RE: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:11:44 +1200     >"undertakers" as we were known back then,   I personally don't like the term "funeral director" for the undertaker, as the Vicar directs the funeral, not the undertaker.   >funeral home   This is also a misnomer. In no sense is the establishment a home. A motel for the dead, maybe, but not a home, as no one stays there long. :-) > are common place. Families choose to hold everything there, just as a matter of convenience, because =   it's a one stop shop. I personally think the body should be brought back to the deceased's church, but that's because I'm also a church musician.   Often these days the deceased has no church at all, even nominally, but = most people still prefer funerals in churches here, though not as commonly as years ago. Being a clergyman as well as organist, I much prefer funerals = in church, for all kinds of reasons.   >>the body was placed in a coffin   >Nothing grates on my last nerve more than wrong terminology. A coffin = is the six sided, old-fashioned, wider at the top, narrow at the feet, burial = container.   Exactly. That's why I used the term. Our coffins in NZ are, almost without exception, the things that are the same width at the top as the bottom, = but are wider where the shoulders go, about 3/4 of the way up.   >A CASKET is the rectangular parallel sided, burial container, common = place in the US and Canada.   In 27 years since ordination, I've only seen a parallel-sided box here = once. Here, "casket" is merely an undertaker's euphemism for coffin, nothing = more.   Ross   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 18/06/2004    
(back) Subject: RE: Anglican funeral rites From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:21:43 +1200   >Clergy funerals, high, broad, or low, almost invariably include the Mass here, and the 1982 American Prayer Book PRESUMES that there will be a Mass at ALL funerals in the NORMAL order of things.   Hmm. Radically different from here, and saying that is not a judgment on either country.   >God is present in the Tabernacle in a special way, by Christ's own promise.   >Where did Jesus even make an oblique reference to the idea of the = elements being reserved? Whenever "we do this", we do it in memory of him, as he commanded, but I can't see what you are referring to.   >As I said, it persisted in England well AFTER the Reformation. Anglo-catholics take a different view, Ross ... it is a CATHOLIC custom, and we are CATHOLICS ... never mind who thought of it first (grin).   "Catholics" are all those who adhere to the catholic creeds, and that, in = NZ at least, most firmly includes the Presbyterians, Methodists, all = varieties of Anglicans, and many others. You must mean "Roman" catholic? You do not refer to a custom of the CofE or of the Angl.Church here in NZ, Anglo-Catholic or some other variety of Anglicanism. >Virtually everybody goes to the grave in the Deep South (the most tradition-bound and conservative part of the USA); if the Committal is of ashes to a columbarium, it usually takes place BEFORE the Memorial Mass in other parts of the country, and is seldom attended by anyone but the priest and immediate family.   Here, ashes are never interred, or immured in a columbarium, on the day of the funeral, as it takes some little time for the furnace to cool so the ashes can be raked out, cooled further, and put into the permanent container. Here, too, if there has been a funeral service, there is no "Memorial Mass".   It seems clear that the funeral customs of our two countries are quite different in a number of respects, even within Anglicanism. That's no judgment, by the way, but just something that is now evident.   Ross   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 18/06/2004    
(back) Subject: RE: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: "Mari" <mreive@tampabay.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 07:42:27 -0400   Isn't that because in North America, people have been conned into thinking that you have to have a lead-lined, silk inner-lined weighs-a-ton casket that costs a fortune? The American way of death (and cost) is so different than the UK. Atleast the UK I left 5 yrs ago. Mari   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of RMB10@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 5:29 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: Re: Anglican funeral rites     >3. It avoids the use of those AWFUL "viewing rooms" in mortuaries, and >gives the parish more of an opportunity to be involved ... in our >parish, the Guilds provided food and drink and childcare for the wake.     Those "awful" viewing rooms in funeral homes actually serve a purpose....back in the days when people were moving from small towns into cities, homes in the cities were smaller than country homes and apartments were popular. They didn't have the room to have funeral ceremonies, so enterprising "undertakers" as we were known back then, built funeral homes, so = families could gather and have funerals in "funeral homes" since back "in the day," many of the pre-funeral activities like viewings were done at the home. One thing = led to another, and now funerals held in the funeral home are common place. Families choose to hold everything there, just as a matter of convenience, because it's a one stop shop. I personally think the body should be brought back to the deceased's church, but that's because I'm also a church musician. Most funeral directors don't always think that way. They don't make extra = money for doing the service at the funeral home versus doing it at the church, they just don't think like a church worker does. They don't understand.   >the body was placed in a coffin Nothing grates on my last nerve more than wrong terminology. A coffin is the six sided, old-fashioned, wider at the top, narrow at the feet, burial container. A CASKET is the rectangular parallel sided, burial container, common place in the US and Canada. Coffins are still more common in Europe and Great Britiain. There is a difference, but here in the states, doffins haven't been used for years. You can find them if you search for them, but they are few and far between, and most funeral homes do not stock them, they are made by cabinet makers who do custom work. Just a little trivia.   Monty Bennett "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org          
(back) Subject: Re: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: "Tim Bovard" <tmbovard@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 07:39:37 -0500   Well, there are these:   http://www.casketfurniture.com/casket_furniture.php   or these:   http://www.vintagecoffins.com/   ;-) Tim     At 04:29 AM 6/23/2004, Monty wrote: >Nothing grates on my last nerve more than wrong terminology. A coffin = is >the six sided, old-fashioned, wider at the top, narrow at the feet, = burial >container. A CASKET is the rectangular parallel sided, burial >container, common >place in the US and Canada. Coffins are still more common in Europe and >Great Britiain. There is a difference, but here in the states, >doffins haven't >been used for years. You can find them if you search for them, but they = are >few and far between, and most funeral homes do not stock them, they are = made >by cabinet makers who do custom work. Just a little trivia.    
(back) Subject: Lemare's "Celebrated" Andantino in D flat From: "James M. Dahlgren" <jmdkimo@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:17:14 -0700 (PDT)   Fellow Organists,   I was practicing Lemare's "Celebrated" Andantino in D flat when one of the "Tuesday Ladies" came up to me at the console and said that there were words to it. Something about "Moonlight and Roses." Does anyone know anything about this? Does anyone have the complete text? Who were they written by? What occasioned the words?   If anyone is interested, I am playing this off of what appears to be a "photographic" copy of Lemare's MSS published by Forster, Chicago 1924, (not my own, unfortunately). It is entitled "Special autograph edition of the celebrated Andantino in D flat for organ as rev. and featured by Edwin H. Lemare." I see that there is supposed to be a copy of this in the USC Library. Does anyone know anything about this edition?   This is a real "charmer" of the organ repitoire. Does anyone know why it is called the "celebrated Andantino," is there an "un-celebrated Andantino" by Lemare?   Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat -James       =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "Love is a choice -- not simply, or necessarily, a rational choice, but = rather a willingness to be present to others without pretense or guile." Carter Heyward, Our Passion for Justice (1984)   James Milne Dahlgren 316 East Harris Avenue, Apartment 15 San Angelo, Texas 76903 (325) 212-4343     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Amazin' Grace From: "James M. Dahlgren" <jmdkimo@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 08:17:51 -0700 (PDT)   Fellow listers,   I had a brain fart for my upcomming presentation on hymns and "thoes funny numbers". I'd like to use Amazing Grace as a 'proof text,' of sorts, and sing each verse with a different tune. Because I'm in Texas, I'd like the last verse to be sung to "The Yellow Rose of Texas." We would not have to start with "New Britan." Are there "official" tune names for "Gilligan's Island" and "The House of the Rising Sun"? [I've seen "Risin' Son" used, but did not know if it was for real or in jest.]   All suggestions will be appreciated.   Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat -James     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "Love is a choice -- not simply, or necessarily, a rational choice, but = rather a willingness to be present to others without pretense or guile." Carter Heyward, Our Passion for Justice (1984)   James Milne Dahlgren 316 East Harris Avenue, Apartment 15 San Angelo, Texas 76903 (325) 212-4343     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:30:47 EDT   Ross,   Part of the confusion here, I suspect, stems from the fact that Anglo-Catholicism is a super-minority "party" within the Anglican = Communion, prominent Anglo-Catholic Bishops around the world (like retired Archbishop Tutu) notwithstanding. Furthermore, Anglo-Catholics worship from several = different prayer-books and Missals, at least in this country (the three "Big" A-C churches in the =   Diocese of Massachusetts, for instance, are a good example: Church of the = Advent uses the American Missal, adapted from the English Missal by the Cowley Fathers and formerly used at St. John's; St. John's uses the 1979 American = Book of Common Prayer, Rite II, for Mass and other sources for certain rites such = as Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament; and All Saints, Ashmont uses = something all together different, published I believe out of Pennsylvania.). Thus, = not even Anglo-Catholics can agree on certain aspects of ritual, especially = Requiem Masses and wakes, etc., let alone agree on a prayer-book.   As for your comment on the reservation of the Blessed Sacrament, you are = of course correct in asserting that there is no biblical basis for it. = However, if I remember correctly, Anglicanism stands on Scripture, Tradition and = Reason. There are Anglicans that believe so deeply in the "real presence" (even = unto Thomistic, transubstantiationist beliefs) that their spiritual lives are increased by devotion to the reserved Sacrament and by Adoration and = Benediction (specifically censured by the 39 Articles, of course, but tolerated in = this country in some Dioceses). Bud's Eskimo analogy of "The Master Being at = Home" (I paraphrase) is an excellent one. To me, one of the beauties of Anglicanism = is that Tradition and Reason expand mere reliance on the Scriptures when it = comes to liturgical and devotional practices. Let us not forget that the = Scriptures either predate Christ or post-date Christ, so to look to scripture to = decide what is allowed or not allowed is a sketchy proposition to say the least. = What the scriptures DO say, however (at least according to St. Paul) is that = the Church Universal has the authority to develop and change under the = guidance of the Holy Spirit. The fact that Anglicanism accepts the authority of = several post-Apostolic ecumenical councils bears this out, and makes it = "Catholic". This, and the fact that the English Reformation was so multi-faceted, with so = many mixed messages sent (the execution of the Protestant Archbishop Cranmer = comes to mind) that Dogma is difficult, if not impossible, to enforce in our extraordinarily Liberal (in the classic sense of the word) Communion.   No wonder when Anglicans start talking about ANY kind of liturgy, it gets confusing.   Bill H. SJE, Boston  
(back) Subject: Re: Lemare's "Celebrated" Andantino in D flat From: "Philip Thibault" <pthibaul@maine.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:02:40 -0400     > I was practicing Lemare's "Celebrated" Andantino in D > flat when one of the "Tuesday Ladies" came up to me at > the console and said that there were words to it. > Something about "Moonlight and Roses."   I had this SAME experience years ago when I was first starting playing. I read every once in a while about this case--evidently very brutal at the time. Lemare's tune was lifted and became the pop song about moonlight = --he was furious and sued on the basis that nobody could ever listen to his = tune again without singing to themselves. Though he won the battle, I believe, he lost the war. The liturgical usefulness of the tune was lost....But = now since only the blue haired set make this association, perhaps it is time = to test the waters again!   Phil T in Maine    
(back) Subject: Re: Amazin' Grace From: <ContraReed@aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:36:57 -0400   In a message dated 6/23/2004 11:17:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, = jmdkimo@yahoo.com writes:   > Are there "official" tune names for > "Gilligan's Island" and "The House of the Rising Sun"?   The first one would be "Theme from Gilligan' Isle (or Island). And I = would assume the official name for the second would be "The House of the = Rising Sun". I hope you're going to carry this one step farther and sing = the words to Gilligan's Island to the tune New Britain, and then sing it = to "House of the Rising Sun". And you do know you can also sing Amazing = Grace to the "Mickey Mouse March???   Richard  
(back) Subject: Re: Amazin' Grace From: "M Collins" <mcoll@panix.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:46:52 -0400 (EDT)   On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 ContraReed@aol.com wrote: > And you do know you can also sing > Amazing Grace to the "Mickey Mouse March??? >   And the Doxology to "Hernando's Hideaway" from "The Pajama Game".   --- MJC    
(back) Subject: RE: Anglican funeral rites From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:48:50 -0400       On 23 Jun 2004 at 16:42, TheShieling expounded:   > Does the USA still have the practice of having a clergyman's coffin > facing one way in the church, and laypeople's coffins the other way? > It's still done here, with the placement being done by the undertaker > (before the congregation arrives, perhaps half an hour before the > service begins.   Some funeral directors do, but I don't think it's a churchwide thing. The = idea is that if the Rapture occurs in that very moment, the dead pastor can stand = up and continue his preaching and exhorting, and if it's a lay person, that = person can join the congregation as the presiding pastor switches gears from a funeral = rite to a Eucharistic rite, I guess.   I noticed that Reagan's coffin was turned around before it processed up = the aisle after the mass at the National Cathedral. I don't know what that was = about, nor how they knew at that point which end was which.   --Shirley      
(back) Subject: RE: Anglican funeral rites From: "Milo R. Shepherd" <mrstwin2@cox.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:54:12 -0400         On 23 Jun 2004 at 16:42, TheShieling expounded:   I noticed that Reagan's coffin was turned around before it processed up = the aisle after the mass at the National Cathedral. I don't know what that was = about, nor how they knew at that point which end was which.   --Shirley   Shirley, the flag is always placed so that the stars are over the left shoulder on a coffin. That is how they know which direction a person is facing.   Milo      
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:54:33 EDT   Shirley, President Reagan's Anglicanism is an interesting story, one which I won't tell here but you (and others) are welcome to email me privately for a = very telling story about how he came to declare his Anglicanism officially and = his learning how to take communion WELL AFTER he became President. Also, I = have it on good authority that liturgy at the National Cathedral is pretty rigorous, which raises the question of just what was going on the other week. BH.  
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: "Richard Smith" <sailnut@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:16:40 -0400   How did Regan come to Anglicanism? I was under the impression that he = was very much a fundamentalist (to the end) in his religious outlook.   Richard Smith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DERREINETOR@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:54 PM Subject: Re: Anglican funeral rites     Shirley,=20 President Reagan's Anglicanism is an interesting story, one which I = won't tell here but you (and others) are welcome to email me privately = for a very telling story about how he came to declare his Anglicanism = officially and his learning how to take communion WELL AFTER he became = President. Also, I have it on good authority that liturgy at the = National Cathedral is pretty rigorous, which raises the question of just = what was going on the other week. BH.
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:31:27 -0400   On 6/23/04 12:48 PM, "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> wrote:   > I noticed that Reagan's coffin was turned around before it processed up t= he > aisle after the mass at the National Cathedral. I don't know what that w= as > about, nor how they knew at that point which end was which.   Actually "down" the aisle, Shirley. "Up" was on the way IN. (The altar is analogous to the Temple in Jerusalem, to which one travels =B3up.=B2) Most common misapplication of that one is the bride and her dad speaking of goin= g down the aisle arm in arm. No, they go "up" the aisle. She goes DOWN on the aisle with her new hubby.   "Feet first" is just more comfortable as a way to "go." Same way you push = a gurney down the hallway in a hospital ward. (Unless the patient is riding on his tummy, in which case he goes "head first." More comfortable.)   You can tell which end is the "head" end by the fact that the field of star= s on the flag is over the deceased's heart.   Alan  
(back) Subject: Re: Lemare's "Celebrated" Andantino in D flat From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:04:38 -0400   At 12:02 PM 6/23/2004, Phil wrote:     > > I was practicing Lemare's "Celebrated" Andantino in D > > flat when one of the "Tuesday Ladies" came up to me at > > the console and said that there were words to it. > > Something about "Moonlight and Roses." > >I had this SAME experience years ago when I was first starting playing. = I >read every once in a while about this case--evidently very brutal at the >time. Lemare's tune was lifted and became the pop song about moonlight = --he >was furious and sued on the basis that nobody could ever listen to his = tune >again without singing to themselves. Though he won the battle, I = believe, >he lost the war. The liturgical usefulness of the tune was lost....But = now >since only the blue haired set make this association, perhaps it is time = to >test the waters again!     Bob Conway hastens to add:   I may be as old as some of "the blue haired set", but I hasten to add that =   I am not one of them!   Of course, those of us that are old enough will always remember Lemare's "Andantino" as being the tune for "Moonlight and Roses", and it always rather tickles me to find that some of our younger colleagues don't know = it as such! In a few years the tune will have a comeback, - after all, = what's in a name?   Bob ... - A white haired old gent!      
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican funeral rites From: "Cole" <rcolev@woh.rr.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:11:54 -0400   Alan wrote: >She goes DOWN on the aisle with her new hubby.   Wh-wh-what is this? Something new?   Ross Coulson "Cole" Votaw, Springfield, Ohio, USA    
(back) Subject: up, down, all around From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:20:26 -0700   I have to admit that I've never heard the distinction, and I was brought up on the tenth edition of "Ritual Notes" and the 1928 edition of Emily Post (chuckle).   Yes, the altar is analagous to the Temple at Jerusalem, and one speaks of going UP to the ALTAR (at least one DID, until the liturgical deformers pulled it away from the wall and did away with the steps), but I've never heard of anyone walking UP the aisle.   Alan, perhaps it's a Lut'ren thang? <g>   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Estey Mystery Organist From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" <71431.2534@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:39:08 -0400   I showed the photo to a friend, he came up with the name of Archer Gibson. Just a guess on his part. Any comments? I would like to know more about the "cash register" organ itself.   Judy Ollikkala  
(back) Subject: Estey console From: "black" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:13:06 -0500   HI ,I would like to know more about this type of console too; it looks = like it may have needed some getting used to? I used to play one with = the "keyboard" type stop action, was easier to use than tabs or rocker = style stop rails. This was Estey op 290 and was about 10 ranks. Gary