PipeChat Digest #4316 - Monday, March 1, 2004 Re: Walker by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: Johannus Organs in IL by "James Grebe" <email@example.com> Re: Walker by "James Grebe" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Convergent worship by "James Grebe" <email@example.com> Re: Walker by "James Grebe" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Amens, Gibson's music and Holy Week Oratorio by "MusicMan" <email@example.com> Re: Convergent worship by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: "Pulling Out all the Stops" (was ending NU organ degree program)(no by "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: North Texas State? by "Margo Dillard" <email@example.com> Re: Convergent worship by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Walker From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:58:26 EST In a message dated 2/29/2004 10:37:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > Allen? Really? I wonder if that was before or after he was servicing > Rogers, ca. > 1967-1969. > he has sold Rodgers for years. being close to Allen has obvious = advantages. HIS ORGANS sound so much better than AYNTHING ELSE it does not make any difference. And he has a back log rivaling major pipe builders. A good Christian too i understand---cannot make a judgment on that call---just what i hear in the industry. One stop on his instruments uses more memory than most box electronics = have on three manual models. dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: Johannus Organs in IL From: "James Grebe" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:26:16 -0600 This was the firm that did St. John's James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Artisan of Wood WWW.JamesGrebe.com 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 firstname.lastname@example.org ----- Original Message -----=20 From: F. Richard Burt=20 To: PipeChat=20 Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Johannus Organs in IL Hello, Desiree: =20 Bybee Organworks: =20 Go to www.bybeeorgans.com =20 This would be a good place to start. These folks=20 have installed some fairly impressive organs. F. Richard Burt =20 =20 .
(back) Subject: Re: Walker From: "James Grebe" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:27:12 -0600 I know they do as he advertises in the ATOS Journal James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Artisan of Wood WWW.JamesGrebe.com 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 firstname.lastname@example.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley" <email@example.com> To: "pipeChat" <firstname.lastname@example.org>; <email@example.com> Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 5:39 PM Subject: Walker > Does anybody know if Bob Walker has a website? (I'm speaking of Bob Walker of > Walker digital organs - a brilliant man.) > > Tnx. > > --Shirley > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Administration: mailto:email@example.com > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > > >
(back) Subject: Re: Convergent worship From: "James Grebe" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:31:57 -0600 > Sounds good to me. > >> > >>> 8:45 AM on Sunday with a Chicago style service. Never figured out what that > >>> means., > >> > >> I'm chuckling WITH you, I think. I've never heard of that one = either. (But > >> it's ages since I've been in Chicago. If you find out, I'd be very curious > >> to know what it IS!) > >> > >>> 10:15 regular liturgical service and once a month service in German for the > >>> real old liners. > >> > >> That's decent. Where IS this church? (I mean, "what city?") Trinity Lutheran, south St. Louis, MO > >> > >>> The Methodist service New Hope Methodist, Arnold, MO > >> > >> "Methodist service"? In an LCMS church? (Not unheard of, perhaps, = but a > >> wee bit unusual.) 2 different buildings and churchs separated by about 20 miles. > >> > >>> are much more free style and in the summer will have another service at a > >>> school close by with a contemporary (band and all) for the really > >>> unchurched. > >> > >> Boy, THAT must be a tough pull! I will most definitely wish them the best! A > >> "band and all" for the really unchurched. I don't even know where to start. > >> Why? I guess. Really unchurched folks like "band" music? (I didn't know!) > >> > >>> The Methodist church has a video screen now intact. My opinion is that > >>> churches are trying any or all things to attract members. > >> > >> Well, I can't blame them for THAT. In fact, I should PRAISE them for that. A > >> video screen now intact! Everything's up to date in Kansas City! Seriously, > >> I'm in a mid-Manhattan parish with a bunch of young members from = middle USA > >> who came to NYC to "break into theatre" (with varying success), and = who HATED > >> their Midwestern church homes for "pandering" to them with = electronics, > >> "P&W," etc., while what they really wanted was the OLD stuff that = their hippy > >> parents were rejecting. We are super-traditional (see www.stlukesnyc.org for > >> the evidence) and the young crowd LOVES IT! > >> > >> Nevertheless, and without knowing how the Methodists got it there, = and not > >> knowing who goes to the Methodist church, I wish you the BEST! > >> > >> Alan (for whom it IS a bit confusing) > >> > Well, OK; and thank you. I'd still be interested (in the most general way) > WHERE this place is. (But it's not really important.) > > Still curious about "Chicago style," of course. What IS it? I have never been to that service so I do not know how it goes. > > Do "really unchurched folks" have a particular fondness for "band = music"? > (EYE do [have done tons of it], but I didn't know it was a particular > favorite of "really unchurched folks." That is the prevailing notion around here. > > What IS the function of a "video screen now intact"? What's it FOR? They project the words of the songs. Pretty soon there will be no need = for hymnals. James> >
(back) Subject: Re: Walker From: "James Grebe" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 06:32:54 -0600 Walker makes the largest digital theatre organs at present. Bigger than = Allen. James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Artisan of Wood WWW.JamesGrebe.com 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 email@example.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Keys4bach@aol.com=20 To: firstname.lastname@example.org=20 Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Walker In a message dated 2/29/2004 6:40:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, = email@example.com writes: Does anybody know if Bob Walker has a website? ( does not need one......but have no theard of one. dale in florida
(back) Subject: Re: Amens, Gibson's music and Holy Week Oratorio From: "MusicMan" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:52:25 -0000 Paul, Thank you for giving us the benefit of your critique. How especially true the observation of the distinct separation of hymn melody and hymn lyric in some peoples' minds. There are some times during Holy week I have to conclude hymns (in particular 'Rockingham' -"When I survey....") 'on autopilot' since I might find focusing on the manuscript too much for the emotional mood the lyrics have put me in. Just to make them think, sometimes I play the introduction and first verse on the quietest stop on "my beast", and only then begin a gradual development of volume and texture. Likewise, I play 'Dear Lord and Father of mankind' as a general diminuendo in each verse. The final verse is the organ in quiet mode, with the choir going hell-for-leather in "speak through the earthquake, wind and fire" = and suddenly going (p)iano for "still, small voice of calm". Sure, it catches the congregation out the first time you do it; but no-one complains when you're doing something appropriately interpretative - and they sure don't get caught a second time! Harry [MusicMan] Grove P.S. Aren't the credits sometimes the best bit. I love looking for jobs which haven't been listed before; such as 'lawn manicurist', prosthesis make-up artist', & 'Trombone coach' (where it had to be played 'badly'). Can you remember any such ? I also "HATE" it when TV announcers start talking over the credits of a film, advertising some crummy show that doesn't deserve viewers in the = first place. Don't they realise that the combination of visual and audio entertainment continues through this segment of the film and that considerable thought and effort has been put into composition, = arrangement, performance, recording and synch for what can amount to minutes of viewing time? Why should I want to hear 'their' voice ? Just as I accept people leaving the cinema QUIETLY, and congregations talking QUIETLY during voluntaries after services; I would NOT countenance their talking while I am playing recital-style or during choir anthems. PPS. Sorry for the long PS -----Original Message----- From: Paul Kealy <email@example.com> To: PipeChat <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: 01 March 2004 01:26 Subject: Amens, Gibson's music and Holy Week Oratorio
(back) Subject: Re: Convergent worship From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:15:59 EST In a message dated 3/1/2004 7:32:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, email@example.com writes: > Midwestern church homes for "pandering" to them with electronics, > >>>"P&W," etc., while what they really wanted was the OLD stuff that = their > hippy > >>>parents were rejecting. We are super-traditional (see > www.stlukesnyc.org for > >>>the evidence) and the young crowd LOVES IT! > from you computer to the ears of the little demigods saying that holy = krappe is the only way to go........ by the time they get around to returning hymns and choirs--the chambers = will be sunday school rooms...and electronics with small pipe divisions will = rule. hope someone is around to play and direct. dale in Florida
(back) Subject: Re: "Pulling Out all the Stops" (was ending NU organ degree program)(now x-posted) From: "jch" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 08:13:51 -0600 At 04:43 PM 2/29/04, you wrote: >Somewhere in the back of my mind I hear the rumblings of >a bad scene if the "cards and letters" influence the Northwestern >hierachy to keep the program. You make a good point. The purpose of writing letters to the school = provost and deacons is a show of support. It is an effort to let them know that = the organ is still a significant instrument, worthy of study, and still has wide spread interest in the musical world. It is too bad this discussion generated such a tirade. I wonder if Gregory realizes that capital letters = denote shouting and screaming....and a shouting match never has provided much benefit in any discussion. Whatever opinion you may have of Doug Cleveland, he is leaving, apparently by mutual agreement of both parties. For whatever reason he has not completed his doctoral work, and really = does not have the credentials to head up a major university degree program. There are serious problems in the Northwestern organ department, and Richard is correct in his statement that for the hierarchy to be = influenced by the volume of mail, without the commitment to fix the problems and provide a quality organ program will not do anything to attract the best and brightest organ students to Northwestern, Their intention to kill the program rather than fix it certainly indicates their current lack of commitment. Please seriously consider writing the University provost about = the importance of a quality organ program and the need for a major institution like Northwestern to have the commitment to provide such a program. Otherwise we will just watch them throw the baby out with the = bath water. There is some semblance of truth in many of the statements made = here about problems with the current program. I have heard many of the same things from numerous sources in local community. I intend to write the University, even though I do not have the credentials that many of you have, I am not a college graduate nor an accomplished organist. I am = merely someone who has loved this instrument and the music it produces for my entire life. The organ is important and Northwestern needs to hear that. respectfully, Jon C. Habermaas :Lindenhurst, Il.
(back) Subject: Re: North Texas State? From: "Margo Dillard" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 08:35:36 -0600 The Bedient is in mean tone - I forget which version. And at every concert in the dedication series after the first one, there was some explanation given. For the most part, the music played was originally written for that tuning - and after a bit your ear got used to it. But some pieces were programmed that surely were not meant for mean tone, as the clashes were extreme. The organ is sharing performance space with the larger, more eclectic instrument (whose builder I have gone totally blank on). The Bediient won't need to be, and surely won't be used for literature other than the narrow time period it copies. As for the people leaving in droves - one never knows what that means. I was one of the people who left every concert in the series except the last at intermission because of time conflicts in the evening. The concerts were scheduled fairly early (6:00, as I recall) - which did allow those of us with 7:00 commitments to attend part. So, who knows - some may have left because the "different" sound was not to their taste, but then they may have just needed to leave. Personally - I guess maybe my ears are just too old and "sot in their ways." Non-equal tunings are interesting and can be a nice place to visit - but I wouldn't want to live there... Margo OMusic@aol.com wrote: > The Bedient is already in. It is tuned to a wierd kind of tuning and > the concert I heard people were leaving in droves during the > intermission. I would like to hear it again to have a different point > of view about it. Eyrline
(back) Subject: Re: Convergent worship From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 10:27:28 EST Just a few comments about worship and music styles and the "unchurched", = etc. For many years I gave in to experimental and "contemporary" Christian elements being introduced into liturgy in the churches I worked for. While = I really didn't agree that this kind of thing would have any long-term efficacy in = an essentially liturgical tradition (it didn't), I got tired of fighting that = battle. I was almost persuaded (pardon the pun) that I had to keep my = "educated", highfalutin tastes from effecting my ministry--a testimony to the deeply = rooted anti-intellectualism of American populist movements in general, and of the = "contemporary" Christian music and anti-liturgical movement in specific. = (In the "catholic" churches, this anti-liturgical movement sometimes co-opts the = term liturgical renewal, as many of us are aware). After having had the wonderful opportunity to take over the musical reins = at a church of my own (chosen) tradition which also reflects my personal liturgical, theological and musical values, I have come to the following, = provisional conclusions (provisional because I am always open to changing my mind): 1. Things like praise choruses, cult-of-personality pastors, "PowerPoint hymnals" and the like work very well in Charismatic or Evangelical (of the = "Camp Meeting" type) churches and mega-churches. This kind of worship fits = perfectly with the kind of non-creedal, minimally liturgical, pietistic, = experiential Christianity practiced by churches of this tradition. I don't disparage = it--on the contrary, catholic worship has its experiential and personal piety = aspects; however, they are expressed differently and sometimes no less = detrimentally. American Evangelical worship styles, whatever their validity to = essentially American low-church denominations, do not work well when injected into the = liturgy of essentially European liturgical and theological models. This is not to say that the liturgical, catholic churches of European = origin must not be sensitive to the cultural experience and understanding of = their congregations. What it does suggest, however, is that this sensitivity = need not be expressed in such a way that the historical traditions of the church = are blurred beyond recognition. What good is it to gain members for, say, a = Lutheran church by obliterating traditional Lutheran elements or theology in = worship? In my opinion, such a practice is at least disingenuous; at worst, = dishonest. 2. "Traditional" worship can be made very accessible to "seekers" from different faith traditions. St. Gregory of Nyssa (Episcopal) in San = Francisco is a radical example which comes to mind. However, a more moderate way of accomplishing this (as has been effective at my parish) might include the = following: Friendly but dignified "greeters" who see to it that all worship materials = are available to everyone who walks in the door; Worship guides which help one = through the mass or service without insulting intelligence; Utilizing = traditional liturgy and music while occasionally branching out into other styles which = are not disruptive to the liturgy; Excellent adult education which is not = overly didactic but rather enlightening as to "why we do what we do" including liturgy, theology and especially music; Liturgy which is not "prissy" or = "spiky" (in the pejorative sense) but which may be quite "high" and not afraid of tradition; Good teaching to the "already believers" about explaining = things to visitors and not behaving as if the church is some kind of high-toned = "clique"; Serious and extensive outreach to the poor and homeless which extends to = welcoming them to worship on Sundays; Openness and sensitivity to all people = regardless of race, gender or sexual orientation. While most people who join our parish are either Episcopalians or "recovering" Roman Catholics, many from other liturgical traditions have = joined--and we are growing. Soon, our Bishop will confirm a Southern Baptist--one who = never heard of the Nicene Creed, Plainchant, incense or even Confirmation before = coming to us. That, and without a single "praise chorus". Seeking an inclusive, open, catholic church for all, Bill H. SJE Boston