PipeChat Digest #4320 - Monday, March 1, 2004
 
Re: chicago style...off topic Mo Syn's
  by "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>
Re: Chicago style
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: chicago style...off topic Mo Syn's
  by "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>
Re: chicago style
  by "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>
Re: chicago style...off topic Mo Syn's
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Re: Allen Organ Model 314
  by "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net>
"Liberal" LCMS?
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: North Texas State? =A0...really University of North Texas
  by <Praestant@aol.com>
Re: Lutheran Parishes (Off-topic response)
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
AGO Code
  by <Praestant@aol.com>
Re: Lutheran Parishes (Off-topic response)
  by <Praestant@aol.com>
Re: Re: Allen Organ Model 314
  by "Milo R. Shepherd" <mrstwin2@cox.net>
should the organist be a member of the denomination?
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Convergent worship
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: what to do while the pipe organ's being repaired
  by "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>
Dennis James Plays Rochester Wurlitzer On March 13. (cross-posted)
  by "Kenneth Evans" <kevans1@rochester.rr.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: chicago style...off topic Mo Syn's From: "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:26:08 -0600   agreed James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Artisan of Wood WWW.JamesGrebe.com 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 pianoman@accessus.net ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RMB10@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:08 PM Subject: Re: chicago style...off topic Mo Syn's=20     >Im not trying to be funny, but I guess a Mo Syn Liberal would be like = Cooperative or >American Baptists...part of the name indicates one = thing, but their worship and views are >very liberal, i.e. Same Sex = couples.=20   I think a liberal Missouri Synod Lutheran is probably more akin to a = moderate ELCA'er, sort of more like a moderate-liberal Southern Baptist, = of which there are some--the FBC in my town is aligned with both the SBC = and the Cooperatives.  
(back) Subject: Re: Chicago style From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 17:26:06 -0500   On 3/1/04 1:00 PM, "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> wrote:   > I thought maybe "Chicago-style" worship was like the pizza.......very = thick > and heavy!   May be. I just don't know, really. > > I'm not trying to start a religious war here, but somebody tell me what = a > "Missouri synod liberal" is.   As an ELCA guy with some definite LCMS sympathies, I'd guess that it's an LCMS person who's less than really uptight about stuff. I don't think it would touch on doctrine at all, but only on peripheral matters like female lectors, etc. Maybe some slight ecumenical implications and similar procedural things.   > Perhaps it means within the confines of that denomination, but they are = not > notably liberal.   I think so. LCMS is MORE conservative now than it was 30 years ago, = because they shed themselves of so many of their best theologians in the Great Purge, leaving the (administrative, theological, and academic) leadership = to (overwhelmingly) very conservative folks. Those who were shed have become the best of the ELCA leadership, of course. And we are grateful for THAT.   Please realize that if the "left" two-thirds of LCMS could pull out and merge with the "right" two-thirds of ELCA, they'd make a FABULOUS denomination, leaving behind the far-right LCMS types and the far-left = ELCA types to contemplate their bellybuttons into eternity.   > The Mo Synod church in my home town calls the ELCA church "the fun = Lutherans," > and it is NOT a compliment!   I'm pleased to hear that (in Illinois!?!) they even accord the adjective "Lutheran" to the ELCA folks. It's similar to the situation in Norway, where there are the State Church and the Free Church. Both Lutheran. The State Church is describable as a bit stuffy, a bit "high," and quite confessional. The Free Church is by no means stuffy, quite low, and reasonably confessional. The Free Church congregation in any given town typically "markets" itself as "the fun church"--and they ARE complimenting themselves with the term--they have SYNTHesizers! Go figure!   Alan     > > To keep on topic, I guess we should all stick to our Principals! >    
(back) Subject: Re: chicago style...off topic Mo Syn's From: "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:27:09 -0600   I have not found that to be the case though we do not hire outside = musicians other than volunteers James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Artisan of Wood WWW.JamesGrebe.com 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 pianoman@accessus.net ----- Original Message -----=20 From: T.Desiree' Hines=20 To: PipeChat=20 Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:11 PM Subject: Re: chicago style...off topic Mo Syn's=20     I can say one thing that brings us back to topic.=20 Some Mo Syn Lutherans usually have problems with hiring church = musicians that are not Mo Syn Lutes.=20         From Desiree'=20 T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60649 http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html     -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail  
(back) Subject: Re: chicago style From: "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 16:28:03 -0600   I agree as belong to that congregation. It is not a problem with us.   James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Artisan of Wood WWW.JamesGrebe.com 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 pianoman@accessus.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:29 PM Subject: RE: chicago style     > Are you referring to a specific parish, Bud, or the Synod. The MO Synod > DOES allow women to do everything except be Pastor, President, > Vice-President, or Elder. The WISCONSIN Synod does not allow women to vote, > etc. > > I think the farther away from St. Louis you are, the more open the LCMS > congregations tend to be. However, the first LCMS church in St. Louis = has > quite a following in the gay community, which surrounds the building. > > Jeff > > > > > > I forgot to mention that the same church (I think) still doesn't allow > > women to vote in Voters' Assembly, but the women COME to Voters' > > Assembly and sit with their husbands and give them a sharp elbow in = the > > ribs if they even TRY to vote the way they think they shouldn't (chuckle). > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: chicago style...off topic Mo Syn's From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 06:29:04 +0800   And this is bad??? --- Or should the denominition be led by people who are = not in the denominatin? (Service music is leadership.)   ----- Original Message ----- From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 12:11:50 -0800 (PST) To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: Re: chicago style...off topic Mo Syn's   > I can say one thing that brings us back to topic. > Some Mo Syn Lutherans usually have problems with hiring church musicians = that are not Mo Syn Lutes.     -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm    
(back) Subject: Re: Allen Organ Model 314 From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:42:08 -0500   dear Milo, I'm sure that you can buy the entire analog service manual from Allen organ for around $50. bucks. It was around that price about ten years ago. It covers all analog organs made by Allen including the tube type. What's wrong with yours. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Milo R.Shepherd" <mrstwin2@cox.net> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:40 PM Subject: Allen Organ Model 314     > I am trying to locate manuals for the Allen Organ Model 314. Is there anyone out there that might have owner or technical manuals for it? > > Thanks > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: "Liberal" LCMS? From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:04:28 -0500   On 3/1/04 1:44 PM, "quilisma@cox.net" <quilisma@cox.net> wrote:   > Alan can speak to this better than I, but there are still a few liberals = in > the LCMS ... most decamped with the purge of the faculty at Concordia = Seminary > some years back.   Bud knows LCMS better than he lets on.   > The principal LCMS in our area uses the ELCA Lectionary, and has had a > more-or-less openly ... um ... you know ... organist for many years. = They also > practice open (gasp!) communion ... says so right in the bulletin = (grin). > > In my experience, the further one is from St. Louis geographically, the = LESS > likely one is to get in trouble on account of things like the above = (grin).   I think Bud is quite right. I could add nothing. Well, OK, the only time = I was refused communion was in Idaho. But Idaho is right next to Missouri, isn't it, in some sense? > > I'M curious ... synod-switching by Lutheran parishes doesn't seem to > cause the upheaval it does in Anglicanism ... does the property belong > to individual churches, rather than the district or denomination?   I've never heard of it being a problem. Twenty years ago there were about four or five LCMS parishes in Manhattan; they were (and are) much stronger in the other (more residential) boroughs. Two in Harlem, one in = Chinatown. Plus Emmanuel on the Upper East Side. They still have the first three, = but Emmanuel swam the Rhine, so to speak (and kept their building--remember, LCMS has almost always been quite congregational). I'm sure some of their parishes in the so-called "outer boroughs" switched, but I just don't KNOW that. Meantime, LCMS got a DONATION of an 1890s red-stone Italianate building (built by and) formerly occupied by a wildly exotic = "spiritualist" sect from Britain, and have opened therein a NEW mid-town Manhattan = parish: The Church of All Nations, without even the name "Lutheran" on their signboard! (Very strange.) I GUESS that might qualify as "liberal LCMS"!!--though, again, I have no reason to think that their systematic theology is out of line at all.   BECAUSE LCMS is the (self-styled?) guardian of Lutheran "purity" in North America, they are the best producers of solid, reliable books on music and liturgy, and on the music for their and ELCA's congregations. Think names like Carl Schalk, Charles Ore, Carlo Messerli, Hans Boehringer, Paul Manz, and what's-his-name at Mt. Olive, Minneapolis--oh, and St. Luke's, = northside Chicago. And their colleges! And some fine folks on this very LIST! I'm VERY glad LCMS is with us--at least in a sense.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: North Texas State? =A0...really University of North Texas From: <Praestant@aol.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:30:41 -0500   > YES thats right! Two different wind chests for each stop tuning right?   No.   Two different sliders, each of which activates some of the same pipes, and = some different pipes unique to the well-tempered or meantone stop to = account for the difference in tuning.  
(back) Subject: Re: Lutheran Parishes (Off-topic response) From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 15:44:16 -0800   I said that at first too, but to be fair to the dealer, the minute that organ leaves the showroom floor, it depreciates 50%, just like a new car. By the time you throw in installation and at least SOME voicing (after all, HE wants to get some mileage out of being able to show the organ), that figure of $50K isn't all THAT unreasonable. If dealer cost for an organ that retails for $50K is somewhere around $15K-$20K, by the time he pays the sales person a 15% commission, deducts his own overhead .... yeah, that's about right.   Several dealers have told me that it simply isn't worth it to them for anything less than a NATIONAL church conference or at LEAST a REGIONAL AGO convention.   Cheers,   Bud   T.Desiree' Hines wrote:   > Hmmm > Thats a mlo tjust to rent when you can get an old used one for 10 K. 50 > K just to RENT? > My dear, Thats a rip off. > > > > > From Desiree' > T. Desiree' Hines > Chicago, IL 60649 > http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Do you Yahoo!? > Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailtag_us/*http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools>      
(back) Subject: AGO Code From: <Praestant@aol.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:50:18 -0500   "I remember one church who said they'd prefer a practicing Mo Syn Lute. = And some Catholic jobs on NPM Site only want practicing Catholics. Do they = know the AGO code?"   Desiree', the AGO Code of Ethics applies to members, not to churches. = Can't imagine where in the Code that you'd find something that requires a = church to hire someone outside the religion. Don't be so ignunt.  
(back) Subject: Re: Lutheran Parishes (Off-topic response) From: <Praestant@aol.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 18:55:59 -0500   "$50K to rent a digital/electronic during the time we'll be without an = organ"   50k to rent an electronic? when a moderate sized three-manual can be = purchased for less than that? Rip-off! What an oversized ego on the part = of the organist, I'd use part of the 50k to increase the salary and find a = better organist.  
(back) Subject: Re: Re: Allen Organ Model 314 From: "Milo R. Shepherd" <mrstwin2@cox.net> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:01:43 -0500   well it hasn't been well taken care of over the years and having just = moved in, want to do what I can to keep it going and if possible improve = the sound some. I have a feeling that some of the tubes are burned out = and need to be replaced and having any info would be good. Thanks for the = info Paul.   Milo > > From: "Paul Valtos" <chercapa@enter.net> > Date: 2004/03/01 Mon PM 05:42:08 EST > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Subject: Re: Allen Organ Model 314 > > dear Milo, > I'm sure that you can buy the entire analog service manual from = Allen > organ for around $50. bucks. It was around that price about ten years = ago. > It covers all analog organs made by Allen including the tube type. = What's > wrong with yours. > Paul > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Milo R.Shepherd" <mrstwin2@cox.net> > To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 2:40 PM > Subject: Allen Organ Model 314 > > > > I am trying to locate manuals for the Allen Organ Model 314. Is there > anyone out there that might have owner or technical manuals for it? > > > > Thanks > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >    
(back) Subject: should the organist be a member of the denomination? From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 16:10:44 -0800   Um, there's a non-religious point to that, I think. Was it on here that we had the discussion about HOW one learns the classical Anglican tradition?   MY conclusion is, British or American, you have to grow UP in it. There IS no place to learn it, aside from serving at the altar and coming up through the ranks of the choir. It isn't TAUGHT *anywhere*, to speak of.   As I mentioned, even Gerre Hancock went to England and APPRENTICED himself to David Willcocks when Gerre was already a prominent church musician in this country.   So ... my point is: if the Anglican tradition isn't in your BLOOD, you won't KNOW that you ONLY sing "O Come, O Come, Emmanuel" on Advent IV, or WHY;   you won't KNOW to sing "Alleluia! Song of Gladness" on the Last Sunday After Epiphany, or WHY;   you won't KNOW to hunt down an older colleague who kept all the Burgess Liturgical Choir Books, or WHY they're worth their weight in GOLD when prepared the Holy Week Rites;   you won't KNOW that you can buy virtually ALL of the standard Anglican anthem repertoire in a handful of volumes from Oxford and Novello;   you won't KNOW the rota of hymns and anthems that go with the Gospel for the Day ...   And it goes on, and on, and on, and ON ...   I KNOW; people are pushing me to write it all down in a book, and I'm saying, "um, I'm 60 years old; I HOPE I DON'T live to be a hundred, 'cause that's how long it would TAKE."   Roman Catholics are particularly impoverished if their musicians are non-Catholics who don't know what came BEFORE Vatican II, and how to utilize THAT music in the CONTEXT of Vatican II, which the CONCILIAR documents COMMAND you to do, all opinions to the contrary notwithstanding. I've read them in the original Latin; I KNOW what they say (grin).   I don't LIKE the Novus Ordo, but it didn't spring full-blown from the forehead of Paul VI; it's the latest incarnation of a tradition that is TWO THOUSAND YEARS OLD, and the Council never INTENDED the kind of wholesale liturgical and musical massacre that has taken place in the American RC Church since Advent Sunday of 1964, when English was first introduced.   But if you haven't STUDIED it in depth, you have no way of KNOWING that.   I've had to LEARN the Missouri Synod Lutheran tradition from my friend, in order to be able to even WRITE liturgical music for them. For instance, they WILL sing certain chorales on Good Friday, WHATEVER the service is ... so I had to incorporate them into my setting of Tenebrae.   Now ... if one knows the RC, Anglican, OR Lutheran traditions, it IS possible to move around within THAT orbit ... I have for years and years and YEARS (grin).   But I had to learn the RC tradition from scratch, and I did it by singing in my theory professor's men's choir BEFORE Vatican II, and by reading everything I could get my hands on in English AND Latin.   The AGO Code isn't quite about that ... unless I'm mistaken, it means the GUILD will not discriminate on the basis of religious affiliation, etc. The Guild may refuse to advertise posts for a VARIETY of reasons:   Locally, I think our chapter won't post anything that pays less than $5200 per annum for one service and one rehearsal, organist only, and THAT'S *pathetic* (grin).   I imagine they would also refuse an ad for "married white heterosexual (insert name of political party) male," or something equally idiotic, but the CHURCHES are free to discriminate as they will, and DO.   Wasn't there a post in the Diapason recently that required one to be a "Bible-believing Christian" and sign some kind of "biblical morality = oath?"     Cheers,     Bud     T.Desiree' Hines wrote:   > Yep lol > I remember one church who said they'd prefer a practicing Mo Syn Lute. > And some Catholic jobs on NPM Site only want practicing Catholics. Do > they know the AGO code? > > > > > > From Desiree' > T. Desiree' Hines > Chicago, IL 60649 > http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Do you Yahoo!? > Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailtag_us/*http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools>      
(back) Subject: Re: Convergent worship From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 19:17:15 -0500   On 3/1/04 2:50 PM, "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net> wrote:   > Most people can only tell if a melody line goes up or down.   Certainly true. And if they went to the public schools of New York City it's not likely that they'd know even THAT! On the other hand, if they attended the public schools of North Dakota, Minnesota, or Wisconsin, (and some other places, I=B9m sure) they very LIKELY learned a little more than just "up or down." New York attracts all the above, and a lot more. Guyana? Bangladesh? Korea? Arkansas?   So to which crowd shall the church cater? (I did NOT say "pander"!) In my parish we have people of perfectly normal intelligence who can't read a NOTE! Well, maybe a very FEW notes. But it's more than they could read when they first walked in the front door. They pick it up--even with a NY= C public school education. They learn that white notes are longer, and black ones are quicker. You know about that.   Hardly the "keys to the kingdom," but, well, why not give them the best and the most? Might improving congregational singing? (Maybe that's too optimistic, but that's me.) I've actually seen a few teenagers "get it" to the point where they ASK to be allowed to sing a solo on Sunday morning! (= I think three in the past five years. At least two actually did so.)   Why, for the love of Pete, DIMINISH their exposure to the specifically MUSICAL aspects of what we do on Sunday morning? Deliberately!   I=B9m almost tempted to suggest getting rid of that =B3video screen intact=B2 (or getting it to show at least the melody line), so people can get acquainted with the Church=B9s MUSIC.   Why not?   Alan                
(back) Subject: Re: what to do while the pipe organ's being repaired From: "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:19:25 -0600   One could have install midi contacts in the piano and use shelf mounted = tone modules. James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Artisan of Wood WWW.JamesGrebe.com 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 pianoman@accessus.net ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@cox.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 3:04 PM Subject: what to do while the pipe organ's being repaired     > SURELY *somebody* in the congregation has a Hammond B-3 or an electronic > theatre organ or SOMETHING the church could borrow in the interim. DON'T > use the piano and/or electronic keyboards ... somebody might get ideas > (chuckle). > > Used AGO console electronics CAN be had from $500 up here locally ... an > old Wurlitzer amplified reed organ would serve nicely, particularly if > it has an external Leslie; or even a Baldwin 5 (EEEWWW!) ... it's only > for what? 6 months? > > Cheers, > > Bud > > > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Dennis James Plays Rochester Wurlitzer On March 13. (cross-posted) From: "Kenneth Evans" <kevans1@rochester.rr.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 19:40:37 -0500   The Rochester Theater Organ Society proudly welcomes California's Dennis James to his 12th Rochester performance on Saturday, March 13 at 8:00 PM. Dennis will entertain us on our Wurlitzer 4/23 in the NEW Auditorium = Center, 875 East Main Street, Rochester, NY 14605 for our 7th "Pops on Pipes" = event this concert season.   The price of admission for this stellar event is only $15 each for non-members (RTOS members have free admission for the series) with tickets going on sale at the box office starting one hour before the concert. = There are over 2500 seats available for great listening.   Driving directions, Dennis James' biography, pictures and much more about the organ and theater are available at http://theatreorgans.com/rochestr/ = .. Come and join us for a fabulous evening of theater organ music at its finest.   Submitted by, Ken Evans RTOS Director