PipeChat Digest #4323 - Tuesday, March 2, 2004
 
Re: PipeChat Digest #4316 - 03/01/04
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Re: showing my ignorance
  by "Roger Brown" <roger2@rogerbrown.no-ip.org>
Used Organ Pipes, windchest, and Reservoir on Ebay
  by "Douglas Roger Dexheimer" <whistles73@earthlink.net>
Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination?
  by "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com>
Re: PipeChat Digest #4317 - 03/01/04
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
Anglican organs
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination?
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Amens, Gibson's music and Holy Week Oratorio
  by "keyplayr" <keyplayr@telus.net>
Re: showing my ignorance
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: PipeChat Digest #4316 - 03/01/04
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination?
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
RE: showing my ignorance
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4316 - 03/01/04 From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 14:30:50 +0800   We do HAMBURG, I think it's American tradition because the tune was = arranged by Lowell Mason.   I've taken to transposing from F to G on the last verse [stanza :-) ]. Not = because of bordom, but because the transposition makes the whole sound = more majestic and, in my church, gets the congragation singing louder:   "Were the whole realm of nature mine, that were a present far to small; = love so amazing, so divine, demands my soul, my life my all."   The Trinity Hymnal (Great Commission Publications) includes two other = Hymns set to HAMBURG; ("Amidst Us Our Beloved Stands" and "O Thou That = Hear'st When Sinners Cry") both have Capo 3 indications for Guitar and = chords set to D. (Technically not transposed.)   O.K. Freeman, you've got me going and now I must look up MORTE CRISTE, = even if only for an offertory tune.   ----- Original Message ----- From: keyplayr <keyplayr@telus.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 22:00:23 -0800 To: PipeChat <pipechat@pipechat.org> Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4316 - 03/01/04 > The American-use tune HAMBURG is set in F in at least 15 different = hymnals > in my collection, and the British / Canadian-use tune ROCKINGHAM is = usually > set in E-flat or in some more-recent publications in D. Neither would = be > even =ABgrowlable=BB by most singers if set in C -- and, BTW I am a = BASSO and > not fond of notes above middle C. > > Now as to the major/minor thAng.... > The Welsh have major/minor versions of many traditional hymntunes, and = it is > p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e to switch back and forth without causing a whole lot of > cacophony (or at least angst!) on the part of most congregations IF they > have a few minor-key tunes in their repertoire-- but I would be = extremely > judicious in my use of such tricks. > > While the plodding, pedestrian nature of HAMBURG makes it a candidate = for > some sort of boredom-relief, the strength, majesty, and word-music = synergy > of ROCKINGHAM would be totally destroyed by such a manoeuver -- not to > mention its more-complex harmonic structure might introduce some > difficult-to-guess intervals for the singers. > > A good text-tune mating ought not to require =ABspicing-up=BB -- in most = cases > where this becomes apparent it is due to poor work on the part of hymnal > editors, or =ABpoliticking=BB in the case of denominational hymnals of = which > many horror-stories could be recounted by generations of church = musicians > upon whom some of this NON-sense continues to be foisted. > .... > > BTW if you want a REALLY grrrrrreeeeat tune for =ABWhen I Survey...=BB = which > makes a good quick-study ANTHEM try the Welsh tune =ABMorte Criste=BB -- = there > won't likely be a dry eye in the church and it won't need tarting-up. = Then > again it's most effective when sung in Welsh! 8-) > > Freeman A. Dryden, > =ABOrganist, Linguist, and Iconoclast-Extraodinaire=BB > Christ Lutheran Church > Chilliwack, BC > -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm    
(back) Subject: Re: showing my ignorance From: "Roger Brown" <roger2@rogerbrown.no-ip.org> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:31:05 +1100   On Tuesday 02 March 2004 15:33, quilisma@cox.net wrote: > (I wrote the above > from memory),   So it would seem - judging from the second quarter <vbg>   -- Roger Brown roger2@rogerbrown.no-ip.org http://rogerbrown.no-ip.org  
(back) Subject: Used Organ Pipes, windchest, and Reservoir on Ebay From: "Douglas Roger Dexheimer" <whistles73@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 00:36:25 -0600   I have listed four items on EBay that should be of interest to some of you that follow this list. Once you are on Ebay's site, search for my items = by searching for seller: spotted_metal, or search for 8' Aeolian Open = Diapason pipes, 12 Capped Oboe pipes, 5-rank unit chest, and pipe organ reservoir/regulator. Wishing you all the best of good buys and good music. Douglas Roger Dexheimer Overland Park, Kansas      
(back) Subject: Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? From: "Alicia Zeilenga" <azeilenga@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 00:41:15 -0600   Personally, I don't think it is necessary for an organist to be a practicing __________, even though I got my job pretty much because I am a practicing Catholic, but it can make things a LOT easier for everyone. I think people are more willing to work with an "insider", and, unlike at least one organist I know, I don't wonder why people go to church on Sunday. Alicia Zeilenga      
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4317 - 03/01/04 From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 14:50:05 +0800   Would that be software-and-woodworking companies like Johannus/Makin, = Allen, Rodgers, Walker, Content, Cantor, Eminent, Alhborn, Hoffrichter, = &c.???   > > IF organ builders built organs like software companies design software = we'd > all have to have backward-facing feet, six pairs of hands, and be = profoundly > deaf to perform on their instruments! > > Cheers, > Keyplayr     > > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics -- "The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."   Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm    
(back) Subject: Anglican organs From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:23:27 -0800   I have asked this question MANY times:   WHAT are these organists THINKING?   The French-style alternatim organ Mass didn't develop much in England .... the Reformation interrupted it. In addition, the glory of the English Church, both pre and post-reformation, has ALWAYS been the choral music. We are told that pre-reformation English organists were superb improvisers, but not a great deal of music has come down to us.   The ROMAN liturgy that organ was designed to play (alternatim) no longer exists in that form; indeed, alternatim is strictly forbidden.   The BULK of the Anglican CHORAL repertoire is from the 16th, 19th, and early 20th centuries; the 16th century stuff doesn't NEED organ; the 19th and 20th century stuff needs your basic "Full Swell to Reeds with the box closed" sound ... that characteristic "banked fires of hell" sound that English organs of the period share with their cross-Channel neighbors.   I have seen a couple of run-back-and-forth installations ... chancel choir and original romantic organ; "boutique" organ (of whatever flavour) in the west gallery, almost invariably a tracker, so it CAN'T be played from the chancel console.   Fisk experimented with electric pull-downs at Ashmont Station so the gallery organ could be played from the chancel Austin (?), but it was abandoned for complex reasons that MIGHT have been discussed here awhile back. As I recall, it had nothing to do with the success or failure of the system, but rather imperial rectors and church politics.   Strikes me as silly ... EITHER you're committing yourself to having two organists on staff ... but in that case the organ scholar is needed to play accompaniments in the chancel while the Organist conducts ... OR, you are indeed committed to running back and forth, never mind the SOUND.   Oberlin now has three organs tuned in (I believe) three different temperaments: Warner Hall (Flentrop), Finney Chapel (Fisk), and Fairchild Chapel (Brombaugh). That's appropriate for an academic institution; it's appropriate for a church multiple organs and with a virtually unlimited endowment, like St. Thomas or Trinity Wall Street; but MOST of the REST of us need ONE organ, and what that ONE organ has to do PRINCIPALLY is accompany the Anglican Choral Service, be it large or small. For THAT, you need noble OPEN DIAPASONS, Claribel Flutes, a REAL string and a celeste, and fine clangy-but-dark English reeds, NOT Spitzprinzipals, xylophone-chiffing Quintadenas and Schnarrenregals = (grin).   Nope. Sorry. Your preludes, postludes and recitals AREN'T more important.   Oh! And I almost forget ... EQUAL TEMPERAMENT (grin).   Cheers,   Bud   Jonathan Orwig wrote:   > I played the Bedient while on vacation a few years ago.... > > If you wanna play French Baroque stuff, it has no > equal this side of the pond ... the sounds are VERY authentic > > EYE happen to not really have developed > much of a taste for that stuff, although I've tried. I managed to grow = into > the sounds of a LOT of composers and eras, but.... I'm almost 40, and I = have > YET to really enjoy it, so I doubt there's much hope <chuckle> > > Having said that, I _can_ objectively admit it does well at what it was > desighned for. > Call me a Philistine, but I _STILL_ marvel that someone would choose to = put > such a beast in an Episcopal church.... they were forced to keep using = the > old Austin, > as the Bedient was not suited to the Anglican repertoire. > > NOW > > Before someone goes and pipes up "you can make ANYthing work if you just > try" > > Yup. You can. But WHY would you WANT to? Why install an ex$pensive = copy of > an old French organ in an Episcopal church when your service-playing > instrument > is in dire need of refurbishment or replacement? If you have a superb > existing organ > for service-playing already, sure, mebbe so, but... > > They say time usually shows us the wisdom of our decisions.... I'm both > disgruntled > and pleased that time has shown the need to remove this instrument to > another > (academic!) venue. Disgruntled that the money was wasted in the first > place, glad > that the matter has been righted and that the instrument will be in a = venue > where it > can be put to good use (and APPROPRIATE use at that) > > Best, >        
(back) Subject: Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 15:16:23 +0800   Well I am glad you have nothing against amateur musicians Bud, because to have such would be intolerable intellectual snobbery.   I am not deying the situation that exists in the USA, far from it. However you seem to generalise as if that situation is the same all over the = world. It is NOT. At least 95% of church organistrs where I am would be amateurs. If they all decided to quit, church music in this state would collapse.   My points are: (1) You do NOT have to be a member of a church to be an efficient and inspiring church musician. I only have to look around me to prove that. However it helps. (2) You do not have to go through the rigmarole that you listed to be an efficient and inspiring organist. Again experience has proved that for me. Again it may be of benefit to those who want to pursue high = qualifications.   I have given a lifetime to the music of the Church, Bud, and if you think that my music is less inspiring than an organist that has gone through the soul destroying (for most) procedure you outline, then you have made a = grave mistake. The feedback from wherever I play tells me that that is not so.   Bud, I have produced three CDs of hymn accompaniments played on my church organ for parishes who lack a capable organist. I only charge the cost of production ($A5) and the call for them has been enormous. I have sent = them to Belfast in N. Ireland and to many parts of Australia in Tasmania, South Australia and my own state. The truth of the matter is that the situation = in other parts of the world is vastly different from what you describe of the USA. In my country as I said the professional church organist is in the small minority. In my state only the Cathedrals and large central churches would have professional organists and in most of them the position would = be only part time. Bob Elms.   ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@cox.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 9:05 AM Subject: Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination?     > > > bobelms wrote: > > > Well Bud, I play in Uniting (ex-Methodist) Churches, an RC Church, = and an > > Anglican Church when needed, and what you are saying does not make = much > > sense to me. >> > From Bud -- > Bob, you and I have butted heads about this on more than one occasion. > > You seemingly refuse to acknowledge that there exists (in America, at > least), that rara avis, the PROFESSIONAL, FULL-TIME Anglican choirmaster > and organist who makes his LIVING doing church music, and as such, is > expected to have professional TRAINING, and, in return, RIGHTLY expects > the church to provide not only a LIVING, but health benefits (we have no > national health care in the US), pension, music allowance, paid > vacation, and continuing education funds. > > I am one such "queer bird" (chuckle), and the process I described WAS > necessary. But moreover, by an large it was intellectual curiosity that > led me to do it. Nobody paid me to, though I WOULD say that it was the > entree to better jobs BECAUSE I set myself the task of doing it. > > I have nothing against amateur church musicians; however, I am NOT an > amateur, and there are different expectations on BOTH sides of the desk. > > Cheers, > > Bud >    
(back) Subject: Re: Amens, Gibson's music and Holy Week Oratorio From: "keyplayr" <keyplayr@telus.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:16:25 -0800   on 04/03/01 4:52, MusicMan at musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk wrote:   > Paul, > <snip> > Likewise, I play 'Dear Lord and Father of mankind' as a general diminuend= o > in each verse. The final verse is the organ in quiet mode, with the choir > going hell-for-leather in "speak through the earthquake, wind and fire" = and > suddenly going (p)iano for "still, small voice of calm".   >=20 Aloha, MusicMan:=20   Just a gentle chide here.... You got it RIGHT the first time by n-a-m-i-n-g the TUNE -- ROCKINGHAM, and then you fumbled and dropped the ball by making the assumption that there i= s one, and only one, tune for =ABDear Lord & Father...=BB   I gather (from your location) you were referring to REPTON, but many Americans would identify the text with REST (Elton), a tune which doesn't lend itself all that well to your suggestion.   Since John Greenleaf Whittier was (I believe) an American I won't venture into the minefield of suggesting which tune is more suitable but just note that we need to know which one you had in mind! BTW I have often done wha= t you suggest with REPTON but have to admit I have nearly fallen off the benc= h of a few clumsily-functioning instruments while attempting that subito manoeuver from fff to pp! 8-)))))   Cheers, Keyplayr   PS: For my absolute favourite example of tune-confusion and intra-denominational politicking:   I was, as a student, seconded to play in rotation with other students at a series of heavily attended Lenten Noontide Services at Old St.Paul's (1751) in Halifax, NS. We students had the habit of auditing each others' =ABperformances=BB and at a particularly heavily-attended service the guest preacher had decided to schedule =ABThe Lord's My Shepherd...=BB as the opening hymn. The student presiding at the console was handed the numbers while she was playing her prelude and having (a) no experience with Anglican or mainline protestant tastes in tunes, and (b) no opportunity to consult with anyone, proceeded at the appropriate time to intro the first of FOUR facing tunes a= t the number indicated (The Hymn Book - 1938) #547. Gathering note.... NADA= ! Not a single voice to be heard! Consummate musician that she was she elegantly segued into the 2nd tune with an identical result.... then into the third, then the fourth... STILL not a peep.... Suddenly getting my brai= n in gear, I precipitated myself into the cramped console pit and, almost body-checking her to the end of the bench launched, from memory, into CRIMOND - a tune not even contained in the aforementioned book. Instant success! Suddenly 500+ voices were wailing away at the =ABONLY=BB tune any of us had EVER -- well... (with apologies to G&S) almost ever -- heard those words sung to! =20   If one examines the pages in question one finds three well-known CM tunes which I have yet to hear ANYone sing to the text in question, and the fourt= h a pretty but insipid little composition by one of the editors, as well as a referral to a FIFTH tune also n-o-t CRIMOND!   The book which replaced HB-1938 hardly did better when. finally conceding that CRIMOND was the overwhelming choice for this text, commissioned a quite ugly =ABarrangement=BB of the traditional harmonization to (as I have bee= n told) avoid copyright/royalty issues.   One further example of denominational agendas is found in The Hymnal (BFC) wherein the glorious tune DARWALL's 148th was completely emasculated by an editor who obviously had some serious issues with minor chords -- replacing them with V7s -- and sounding SO bad that I had my choir of the time REwrit= e the offending notes =ABcorrectly=BB so that I could play the tune without cringing! <8-Q   ...... Lord save us from all manner of evils and most especially from hymnal editors with agendas.....          
(back) Subject: Re: showing my ignorance From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 15:22:30 +0800   Amy., I seem to have missed the posting you quote. However I think the originator of the quote would have great difficulty in sustaining the = claim which is a generalization which the author would find impossible to sustain.   The Anglican Church where I play at times points the psalms and I, the organist on those occasions, have NO difficulty in playing the music. In addition I am the conductor of my own church choir which does point = psalms at times. The organist on those occasions has no difficulty either.   I wonder on what grounds the assertion was made and by whom? It is a generalization.   I have not answered your question because I have read at least two other replies to your query both of which gave the answer. Regards, Bob Elms.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Amy Fleming" <docamy@alltel.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 12:13 PM Subject: showing my ignorance     > OK this is the second time I have heard this term today. > "organists cannot handle the pointing of the psalms and canticles" > What is pointing? > Thanks, Amy > trying really hard to stay out of the Lutheran conservative vs liberal > discussion! > Glad to find out why her RC husband can't sing in church. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > >    
(back) Subject: Re: PipeChat Digest #4316 - 03/01/04 From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:35:40 -0800   Lowell Mason was actually quite a Chant scholar ... HAMBURG is a metrical version of Gregorian Tone 1-F.   Cheers,   Bud   Jan Nijhuis wrote:   > We do HAMBURG, I think it's American tradition because the tune was = arranged by Lowell Mason. > > I've taken to transposing from F to G on the last verse [stanza :-) ]. = Not because of bordom, but because the transposition makes the whole sound = more majestic and, in my church, gets the congragation singing louder: > > "Were the whole realm of nature mine, that were a present far to small; = love so amazing, so divine, demands my soul, my life my all." > > The Trinity Hymnal (Great Commission Publications) includes two other = Hymns set to HAMBURG; ("Amidst Us Our Beloved Stands" and "O Thou That = Hear'st When Sinners Cry") both have Capo 3 indications for Guitar and = chords set to D. (Technically not transposed.) > > O.K. Freeman, you've got me going and now I must look up MORTE CRISTE, = even if only for an offertory tune. >        
(back) Subject: Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:55:14 -0800       bobelms wrote:   > Well I am glad you have nothing against amateur musicians Bud, because = to > have such would be intolerable intellectual snobbery. > > I am not deying the situation that exists in the USA, far from it. = However > you seem to generalise as if that situation is the same all over the = world.   I made it VERY clear from the outset that I was speaking of the situation in the Episcopal Church, United States of America. I'm well aware of the DEPLORABLE salaries and working conditions in South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and Canada, and, to a lesser degree, Great Britain.   > It is NOT.   ANGLICAN organists on this list from countries other than the US, please raise your hands. Yes, thank you, Deon ... are there others?   At least 95% of church organistrs where I am would be amateurs. > If they all decided to quit, church music in this state would collapse.   For the MOST part, American organists, with the notable exception of Mormons and Seventh-Day Adventists, EXPECT to be paid. No pay, no play. Simple. > > My points are: > (1) You do NOT have to be a member of a church to be an efficient and > inspiring church musician. I only have to > look around me to prove that. However it helps.   Perhaps. I was not a member of Old St. Mary's RC or Pilgrim LCMS when I played there, but I KNEW the traditions and the liturgy.   The American Episcopal Church currently is AFFLICTED with a flood ex-Baptist musicians (sorry) who fled the Southern Baptist Convention's conservative and anti-you-know-who crack-down. They may be closer to us in matters of social justice, but they brought their music right along with them and can't understand why it isn't acceptable.   > (2) You do not have to go through the rigmarole that you listed to be = an > efficient and inspiring organist. Again experience has proved that for = me. > Again it may be of benefit to those who want to pursue high = qualifications.   Thank you. To say otherwise would be anti-intellectualism. However, I would say that ANY working ANGLICAN organist would have to know the things I listed and a LOT MORE in order to be effective, whether amateur OR professional, full OR part-time. > > I have given a lifetime to the music of the Church, Bud, and if you = think > that my music is less inspiring than an organist that has gone through = the > soul destroying (for most) procedure you outline,   I have never heard you play; I have never seen you conduct; I have never heard your choirs. Why are you making this a personal issue between the two of us?   And why, pray, is it "soul-destroying"? I outlined some practical requirements for competent Anglican organists in the US ... I wasn't aware that I was imperiling their immortal souls or their hope of eternal glory by doing so.   There's something going on here, and I'm going to ferret it out, sooner or later. Are you jealous of my conservatory degree, Bob? or are you angry because I'm an out-of-the-closet you-know-what?   then you have made a grave > mistake. The feedback from wherever I play tells me that that is not so. > > Bud, I have produced three CDs of hymn accompaniments played on my = church > organ for parishes who lack a capable organist. I only charge the cost = of > production ($A5) and the call for them has been enormous. I have sent = them > to Belfast in N. Ireland and to many parts of Australia in Tasmania, = South > Australia and my own state. The truth of the matter is that the = situation in > other parts of the world is vastly different from what you describe of = the > USA. In my country as I said the professional church organist is in the > small minority. In my state only the Cathedrals and large central = churches > would have professional organists and in most of them the position would = be > only part time.     Bob Elms.       That's fine. As I have stated repeatedly, I was speaking of the US.   And, by the way, my choral compositions are now distributed FREE OF CHARGE to over two hundred churches and cathedrals throughout the English-speaking world via the Net, as well as several churches in the C of E Overseas Diocese in Europe, so I'm not QUITE the mercenary monster you make me out to be.   Let's stop boring the rest of the list with this pot-shots, shall we?   Bud          
(back) Subject: RE: showing my ignorance From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:33:23 -0000   I used to have a comedy quartet, which was sung by four men dressed in = choir robes, based on the differences in pointing methods between different branches of the Anglican church. I will try and dig it out and post it to the group - but I can remember the "refrain" which came between the comedy verses: /Please don't alter the Psalter/ a-ny . more. /O let us appoint a. point-ing /that's the same,/ In ev'ry church .you go. to,/ They always = have their own particular method of .chant-ing /Psalms . their/ Way/....   Will Light Coventry UK     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of quilisma@cox.net Sent: 02 March 2004 04:34 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: showing my ignorance   Anglican Chants aren't written out in full ... the tune, consisting of   Reciting note / 3-note . me -di - / ation // Reciting note / 5-note / CA - / dence   is printed above the words in 4-harmony; the words are then marked up to (theoretically) correspond with the tune, above, something like this:   O come, let us sing / un-to . the / Lord; // Let us heartily rejoice in the strength of / our sal - / VA- / tion.   Let us come before his presence with / THANKS - / giv-ing; // And show ourselves / glad in / him with / psalms. //   It's a HIDEOUS way to do things (grin), but those of us who grew up in the Anglican Church imbibed it with our mother's milk (I wrote the above from memory), and are wont to chant the weather report, etc. at parties after a couple of drinks (grin).   Cheers,   Bud