PipeChat Digest #4326 - Tuesday, March 2, 2004 Re: Allen Organ Model 314 by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: NU etc. by "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: NU etc. by "jch" <email@example.com> PLEASE READ: Edit your replies and HTML posts by "Administrator" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? by "Margo Dillard" <email@example.com> Re: Anglican organs by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: St. Mark's in Grand Rapids by "Margo Dillard" <email@example.com> Questions by "David Baker" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Re: Anglican organs by "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? by "bobelms" <email@example.com> Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Chicago Folk Service "scoop" by <MMccal7284@aol.com> Re: Lutheran churchmanship in San Diego! by "Shirley" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re:Showing my ignorance by "Dr. Amy Fleming" <email@example.com> Evanston/Chicago Seminaries (was NU, etc.) by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? by "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> High sounding job titles by "Bob Conway" <email@example.com> Ex-Baptist Anglican Organists, etc. by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Re: St. Mark's in Grand Rapids by "Richard Schneider" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Showing my ignorance by "Randolph Runyon" <email@example.com> Minister of Music??Grandiose?? by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Allen Organ Model 314 From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:34:51 EST In a message dated 3/2/2004 8:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, firstname.lastname@example.org writes: > Also what I am trying to figure out totally is the switches on the = boards > that pull out from under the console. They list each stop and there is = 5 > small switches for that stop. I assume that each switch is for each = octave, > though I could be wrong. > > combination action?
(back) Subject: Re: NU etc. From: "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 05:41:06 -0800 (PST) --- terry hicks <Terrick@webtv.net> wrote: > I'm really amazed at the comments people make about > the NU program > [snip] Pardon me, but I have missed something. Who is "the Rubsam?" Would you please let us know? I thought the former president of the A. G. O. taught there [her name escapes me]... Has she left? One of my friends, so I was told, studied at NU under Richard Enright... She completed her Masters' in the summers, since she taught school during the regular school year... The School of Music sat on its hands and > let it happen. The > fact the Rubsam is now a barber in Indiana should > give some clue > as to problems. All his time "on the road" > didn't result in students flocking to the school. > Plus he was very > condescending about other people's playing. There > is not a top-rate > recital instrument on campus. The A-S in the chapel > is big and has a > good stoplist but many of the sounds are mediocre, > and the console is a > "pig". > > > Despite all the seminaries around the metro area, > the church music > program had no interaction with them. Was there any reason why? Best wishes to all, Morton Belcher fellow list member... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you=92re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: NU etc. From: "jch" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 07:43:16 -0600 At 06:42 AM 3/2/04, terry hicks wrote: >I'm really amazed at the comments people make about the NU program and >Doug Cleveland, with obvious lack of real >knowledge of the situation. You haven't said anything new here other than to confirm what has already been said that the NU program is certainly in trouble. Of course most of = us have no real knowledge as the principals are not talking. We are forced to = rely on rumors that are swirling around the organ community. The students say this, the dean has said that. The Chicago Tribune said this. I certainly agree with your comments about Alice Milar. It would be a great benefit if those horrible German reeds were replaced by the original Skinners, which I understand are in storage somewhere in the basement. All = the instruments have been neglected, but whose fault is that..they've = spent plenty of money to have them maintained. The combination action at Milar = is horrible, I attended a master class there once which well demonstrated = this by the unreal amount of time it took for the students to load their registrations, which the computer did not always accept the first time. It = seems to like to dump out the registrations at inopportune times. Don't fault the posters on this list by caring that this program is being dumped = and speculating on the reasons. As far as Gregory's outburst,,,EVERYTHING = IS DEFINITELY NOT WONDERFUL. This program is most likely lost, as NU apparently does not care about supporting the future of the organ and turning out quality musicians. The NU organ degree program will most = likely go the way of the NU Dental School, another program which NU lacked commitment to support...after all the resources could be more beneficially = used in the Medical School. Not everyone is against ending the program. Some folks are still bitter about NU dumping that wonderful Casavant that used to shine in the auditorium. For me, all this has been enlightening, = as I no longer consider NU A Collegiate Class Act. Jon C. Habermaas
(back) Subject: PLEASE READ: Edit your replies and HTML posts From: "Administrator" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 07:44:08 -0600 Folks PLEASE edit out the previous posts when you reply to a topic on the list. I know that the Default in most email clients is to include the full post you are replying to. In most cases in replying you don't need to include all of the previous material, the other members of the list will realize what you are replying to. If you feel that you need to include something as part of your reply please limit it to the relevant parts of the thread only. When you don't edit out material and we have a busy day like yesterday it means that some member's mailboxes fill up very fast and then there is all sorts of extra traffic with the bouncing mail. This morning I woke up to LOTS of bounced mail, much more than usual, and most of it was due to various members mailboxes being filled and the mail being sent back to me. And most of those bounces were messages that were way too big because of the extra unedited parts of those replies. While I am writing you I also would like to ask again that you please send in PLAIN TEXT and not formatted (HTML and other types of formats) email. Again, this does make your posting "bloated" and helps fill up other members mailboxes. Although the server has been able to strip out the HTML parts in the Digest the Individual posts do not get that HTML stripping which means that there is all sorts of "extra" stuff making the posting much larger than it needs to be for communicating what you are saying. Thanks for listening and please remember, neither of these are topics for discussion on the list. If you have questions or comments please address them to the Administrators at the <email@example.com> address. Now back to PipeChatting. David -- **************************************** David Scribner Owner / Co-Administrator PipeChat http://www.pipechat.org mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? From: "Margo Dillard" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 07:49:58 -0600 I would agree with Bob - and I'm in the U.S. I have served various denominations, including Episcopal, Lutheran, and Catholic, of varying degrees of liturgical "flavor". And I have friends who have also served Anglican and Lutheran and Catholic who came from backgrounds much farther afield (Southern Baptist). With proper training and study, it is quite possible to learn a denominations worship styles. Granted, it is _easier_ to play in the same style you grew up in, but to say only those raised in a denomination can understand that denomination is much too narrow. I have now settled down for the long term in a church of my own personal lifelong membership - but that has more to do with my satisfaction with the job and the people than that they happen to be Methodist. I would say that I would personally turn down a position in a church whose views actually opposed mine (which, of course, being a Methodist - would have to be pretty extreme differences) - simply because I would be uncomfortable participating, much less leading, their worship. And I won't serve a church that excludes me or classifies me as an "unbeliever" just because we believe differently. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't be perfectly capable of leading their music. Margo bobelms wrote: > Well Bud, I play in Uniting (ex-Methodist) Churches, an RC Church, and = an > Anglican Church when needed, and what you are saying does not make much > sense to me. big snip > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> > To: "PipeChat" <email@example.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:10 AM > Subject: should the organist be a member of the denomination? > > > >>Um, there's a non-religious point to that, I think. Was it on here that >>we had the discussion about HOW one learns the classical Anglican >>tradition? >> >>MY conclusion is, British or American, you have to grow UP in it. There >>IS no place to learn it, aside from serving at the altar and coming up >>through the ranks of the choir. It isn't TAUGHT *anywhere*, to speak of. >>
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican organs From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 06:15:00 -0800 (PST) Hello, I have to dispute Bud's assumptions about Anglican Church Music. The BULK of Anglican Music comes from the pre-reformation period, the SEVENTEENTH century (Purcell etc) when the attempt was made to import French ideas during the Restoration, the 19th century naturally, BUT a vast amount has been written and continues to be written since then. A few recent names to conjour with:- Kenneth Leighton (Significant) Philip Moore (Quite a lot) Francis Jackson (Fair output) John Rutter (Huge output) Herbert Sumsion (Quite prolific) Herbie Howells (Wrote a number of settings which all sound the same) Though not strictly "Anglican" and written for private performances, the Handel Chandos Anthems are reasonably significant, and of course, there is that little performed work called "Messiah". Oh yes! Musn't forget Gerald Finzi and Elgar and Vaughan Williams and Benji Britten and....who cares? Come up to date Bud!! Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- email@example.com wrote: > I have asked this question MANY times: > > WHAT are these organists THINKING? > > > The BULK of the Anglican CHORAL repertoire is from > the 16th, 19th, and > early 20th centuries __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you=92re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: St. Mark's in Grand Rapids From: "Margo Dillard" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 08:20:32 -0600 The other BIGGER issue to me that no one has mentioned - that makes this an excellent instrument for an academic setting - it isn't just the sound. The CONSOLE is a copy also! Just a handful of little stubby flat pedals - little short keys on flat keyboards with BIG distances between them. I can't imagine that a church bought it or that Bediient built it for a church - but they did. I'm sure both the church and the organ are happier now that its home is academia. But what a marvelous thing for students - they can actually experience playing an 18th century French organ without buying a plane ticket. Margo Jonathan Orwig wrote: > I played the Bedient while on vacation a few years ago.... > snip > > Having said that, I _can_ objectively admit it does well at what it was > desighned for. > Call me a Philistine, but I _STILL_ marvel that someone would choose to = put > such a beast in an Episcopal church.... they were forced to keep using = the > old Austin, > as the Bedient was not suited to the Anglican repertoire. > >
(back) Subject: Questions From: "David Baker" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:23:59 -0500 Bud: What do you mean by "alternatim", and who says it is forbidden? Also, the organ in the chancel at All Saints, Ashmont, was renovated (ahem!) by William Laws and hardly has any of the original builder left, at least tonally. I think it was originally a Casavant, not an Austin, but I could be wrong about that. David Baker
(back) Subject: Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 06:27:12 -0800 (PST) Hello, Definitely not! I rather look forward to the day when churches appoint alcoholic, money grabbing sexual predators! That way, I will know that the age of "political and religious correctness" has ended, and I shall rejoice. What? You mean they DID already? Crumbs! Regards, Colin Mitchell UK > T.Desiree' Hines wrote: > > > Yep lol > > I remember one church who said they'd prefer a > practicing Mo Syn Lute. > > And some Catholic jobs on NPM Site only want > practicing Catholics. Do > > they know the AGO code? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you=92re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: Anglican organs From: "bobelms" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 22:41:14 +0800 I don't know some of the moderns quoted by Colin but I DO know Britten = (some spectacular music!) and John Rutter and some of Leighton's organ nusic. A local Choral Society has done quite a bit of Rutter's works including the Requiem. They are most tuneful in an unusual way. Great music! Bob Elms. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: "PipeChat" <email@example.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 10:15 PM Subject: Re: Anglican organs > Hello, > I have to dispute Bud's assumptions about Anglican Church Music. The = BULK of Anglican Music comes from the > pre-reformation period, the SEVENTEENTH century (Purcell etc) when the attempt was made to import > French ideas during the Restoration, the 19th century naturally, BUT a vast amount has been written and continues to be > written since then. > A few recent names to conjour with:- > Kenneth Leighton (Significant) Philip Moore (Quite a lot) Francis Jackson (Fair output) > John Rutter (Huge output)
(back) Subject: Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? From: "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 22:43:31 +0800 Excuse my ignorance but is it permissible to ask what a Mo Syn Lute is? Or should I hush my mouth? Bob Elms > > T.Desiree' Hines wrote: > > > > > Yep lol. I remember one church who said they'd prefer a practicing = Mo Syn Lute.
(back) Subject: Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:46:48 -0500 At 06:27 AM 2004-03-02 -0800, you wrote: >Hello, > >Definitely not! > >I rather look forward to the day when churches appoint >alcoholic, money grabbing sexual predators! > >That way, I will know that the age of "political and >religious correctness" has ended, and I shall rejoice. > >What? > >You mean they DID already? > >Crumbs! > >Regards, > >Colin Mitchell UK > > > > T.Desiree' Hines wrote: > > > > > Yep lol > > > I remember one church who said they'd prefer a > > practicing Mo Syn Lute. Colin, If a church is a group of people, who are by extension part of the family of God, certainly the organist should be part of the family, and as such = be a member of the denomination, or congregation. All aspects of worship should be pointing the same direction, to God, to the glory of God. If a musician, church organist, cantor, choral = director, is just there because it is a job, for extra pocket money, for self gratification, for self glorification, they are in the wrong place in a church. The church should not be a haven for the otherwise unemployable church musician, no matter how good or professional he or she may be. The = church worship service is not a concert hall, it is not a place to show = off musical talents. It should solely be God glorifying. I'm not saying churches should necessarily promote terrible or mediocre musical responses, but to hire a so-called professional outsider who cares = nothing for the church, is asking for trouble, if not in the short term, certainly in the long term. Arie V. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263
(back) Subject: Chicago Folk Service "scoop" From: <MMccal7284@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 09:48:18 EST <<< Shirley wrote: OK, folks here's the scoop. It's "Chicago Folk = Service", composed by Al Gorman and introduced in 1988. It is still in print and is published by Augsburg-Fortress. There is an accompaniment version as well = as a congregational version. >>> Thanks to my kind, obliging former pastor in Greenville, Ohio, I now have = in my possession an first-edition copy of the Chicago Folk Service, = accompaniment version. It is by Art (not Al) Gorman and was first published by Kjos in 1972. The congregational version later went through a much-needed rehab = (perhaps in 1988). These items are offered in an Augburg-Fortress catalog, as are = other items by publishers other than A-F. MaryLee M.
(back) Subject: Re: Lutheran churchmanship in San Diego! From: "Shirley" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:50:20 -0500 On 1 Mar 2004 at 21:17, Alan Freed wrote: > Right out of that town in Scotland that comes back to > life for one day every hundred years. Can't remember the name. Brigadoon.
(back) Subject: Re:Showing my ignorance From: "Dr. Amy Fleming" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 08:53:59 -0600 Thanks Bud and Scott. I have seen those marks in my own (Lutheran) church but didn't know what they were called. Why is it difficult for = organists? Isn't the music written in the organists book? Amy >> OK this is the second time I have heard this term today. >> "organists cannot handle the pointing of the psalms and canticles" >> What is pointing? >Pointing, which generally refers to Anglican Chant, means the marking of the >scores to indicate phrasing, syllabalization and where the pitch moves within >the text. Pointing it is a series or markings, a road map if you will, = to >tell the singers how to sing a particular Psalm. Hope this helps. >Scott F. Foppiano >Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino
(back) Subject: Evanston/Chicago Seminaries (was NU, etc.) From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 08:55:42 -0600 Hi! I must correct one poster's comment about the Church Music Program at Northwestern not having anything to do with the many seminaries. The Sacred Music Colloquium (or something around that name) is shared between Northwestern's Organ/Church Music Majors, Music Ministry students at Garrett Evangelical Theological Seminary (Methodist) and Seabury Western Theological Seminary (Episcopal). Faculty from all three schools are involved in the teaching of this class. Interestingly enough, Garrett offers an M.A. in Music Ministry (I wonder how the closing of NU's organ department will affect this) and Seabury offers a Master of Theological Studies in Music and Liturgy. I've heard that Seabury's Bob Finster is a fine musician. He is also the parish musician at St. Mark's Episcopal in Evanston I believe. I haven't seen any of the instruments at either seminary, but I believe Garrett has a nice 3 manual Casavant in their chapel and Seabury a nice little Casavant tracker. Chicago seminaries are really the best places for organs in the city in some ways. I've already mentioned the ones in Evanston. Besides those, there's the Karl Wilhelm at Chicago Theological Seminary in Hyde Park (UCC) and there is soon to be (maybe there already is) a 3 manual (I think) Bigelow tracker at the Lutheran School of Theology (ELCA) Lenten Blessings Beau Surratt
(back) Subject: Re: should the organist be a member of the denomination? From: "bobelms" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 23:06:08 +0800 But surely Arie this is no argument against a non member playing the organ in a church of a denomination not his own. I should say your argument = would also apply to a member of the Church who used the position for the same purpose as you describe. I certainly do not play in churches of denominations not my own with the attitude you describe. Your argument defeats itself on those grounds. Bob Elms. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> >> All aspects of worship should be pointing the same direction, to God, = to > the glory of God. If a musician, church organist, cantor, choral director, > is just there because it is a job, for extra pocket money, for self > gratification, for self glorification, they are in the wrong place in a > church. The church should not be a haven for the otherwise unemployable > church musician, no matter how good or professional he or she may be.
(back) Subject: High sounding job titles From: "Bob Conway" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 10:09:04 -0500 I have refrained from entering the debate between Bob Elms and Bud Clarke, = for fear of upsetting other people on the list. But here goes! When I first came to Canada back in 1968, I was very surprised by the grandiose titles given to a lot of appointments posted. For instance, everybody at the University where I taught for some 25 years was a Professor, - well perhaps not the Janitor, - but in fact, if you wanted to = know something you always (and still do) ask the Janitor. In the case of the Janitor in the Department where I worked, he parlayed his job into opening up a cleaning business, from which he retired recently having many = employees working for him. He retired earning at least as much as a Professor does! Now, the Anglican Cathedral here, in Kingston, employed an Organist and Master of the Choir, but I soon found out that in North America, (that includes Canada), they get grandiose titles such as Minister of Music, or Director of Music, - when really they are Organist and Choirmaster, even = in small churches by comparison to a Cathedral. This grandiloquent job title, I suppose, is geared to receiving higher pay = for doing the same work! It has long been my belief that provided the Parson can work with the Organist, everything works out very well, - if he = doesn't, as Bud Clarke found to his cost, - then forget it! Do the job, to the best of your ability, call it what you will, but it is still an Organist and Choirmaster's job! Bob Conway
(back) Subject: Ex-Baptist Anglican Organists, etc. From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:09:53 -0600 Hi! Just a little qualifier... and I'm not disagreeing with Bud... One of the best know and most wonderful Anglican organists in the world, Richard Webster, is an ex Southern Baptist. Also, there are some Episcopalians in this country, both ex-Southern Baptist and cradle, who don't believe that Anglican Liturgy and Music are traditions which were dropped as is into our hands by God. There are some Episcopalians ( and legitimate ones) who claim the entire tradition of Christian Church Music. This, I believe, is one the virtues of the ECUSA. Not all churches are the same. Not all Anglican organist need the same training that Bud specifies. What about the Leadership Program for Musicians in Small Congregations (I think that's the name)? I'm currently doing in internship (in ministry, not music) in an Episcopal Church which is one of the most thriving parishes in the Diocese of Chicago, where the music is nothing like anything Bud would produce, but the people there are nourished every Sunday by the Rite II Eucharists (and even 1 from the New Zealand Prayer Book) and they live the Gospel like no congregation I've ever seen. Their music director doesn't have all those qualifications. I love a traditional Anglican Music Program and Anglo-Catholic liturgy, but there's more to life, and,yes, more to the Episcopal Church than that. Lenten Blessings, Beau Surratt
(back) Subject: Re: St. Mark's in Grand Rapids From: "Richard Schneider" <email@example.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:10:43 -0600 Jonathan Orwig wrote: > they were forced to keep using the old Austin, Linda Kay Strouf also wrote: > St. Mark's never got rid of their big Austin <snip> .....most of the time they continued to use the Austin for > service > > music and played the Bedient for voluntaries. Since the Austin was = (still > is > > I think, but I'm not 100% sure) up front and the Bedient was in the > gallery it > > must have made for interesting treks up and down the stairs. Arp responds: I *just* got a post from someone "in the know" (a builder friend) about this St. Mark's Austin situation. He wrote: > Interesting you mention St. Mark's. We inked a deal on Saturday to > purchase > the Austin and remove it in June. The thing is seriously trashed > (vintage > 1910) though there is a lot of the original Austin reed work > intact, > including a Clarinet and two 16' full length reeds. We've already > sold the > facades He also wrote: > the new Walker for St. Mark's, which > is > nearly completed . . . will be installed in August. It is four > manuals and I > don't remember how many ranks, but it will be stunning, to be sure! > It was > Andrew Pennel's last design before he died, and Walker has given a > Pedal > Trompette in his memory. So apparently, "here endeth" the Austin also. Faithfully, G.A. -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO <>< Schneider Pipe Organs, Inc. 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (877) 944-2454 TOLL-FREE (217) 944-2527 FAX firstname.lastname@example.org Home Office EMAIL email@example.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com URL ADDRESS
(back) Subject: Re: Showing my ignorance From: "Randolph Runyon" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 10:10:19 -0500 on 3/2/04 9:53 AM, Dr. Amy Fleming at email@example.com wrote: > > Thanks Bud and Scott. I have seen those marks in my own (Lutheran) = church > but didn't know what they were called. Why is it difficult for = organists? > Isn't the music written in the organists book? Amy Do you use the Lutheran Book of Worship? The psalms are pointed on pp. 290-91 of the pew edition. We sing the psalms that way every Sunday in = our ELCA church. Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Minister of Music??Grandiose?? From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 09:19:43 -0600 Hi! I must say that Minister of Music is most certainly NOT a grandiose title. The very title of minister suggests a servant role. My title at my church is Minister of Music and Worship. It has NOTHING to do with being grandiose. I serve this congregation and help to provide meaningful, suitable music for worship and I serve as chair of the worship committee which is responsible for the Sunday liturgies. I am NOT "Master of the Choir" nor am I simply a "Director of Music." Our music program flows out of the life of our church. It is not some program with its own "Director" which is tacked on to church programming as some separate entity. If the title of Minister is grandiose, then so is the title of "Pastor" or "Priest" or anything else, and all of the people who accept those titles are doing what they are doing so that they can have such a title, not so they can serve God or the Church or anything like that. Blessings, Beau Surratt Most High Mistress of Music (now THAT's GRANDIOSE! :) Minister of Music and Worship United Church of Hyde Park, Chicago