PipeChat Digest #4333 - Wednesday, March 3, 2004
 
RE: "Episcopalian"
  by "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com>
Re: Estey stock models
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com>
Re: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc.
  by "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>
Re: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc.
  by <Pologaptommy@aol.com>
Re: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc.
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
Re: St. Mark's in Grand Rapids
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Where'air we are blown
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Where'air we are blown
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
Re: Registration practices in Bach works (LONG)
  by "Del Case" <dcase@puc.edu>
Re: Where'air we are blown
  by "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org>
BWV 534
  by "Christopher Howerter" <OrgelspielerKMD@msn.com>
Re: "Episcopalian"
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Pipes for sale
  by "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@charter.net>
RE: Where'air we are blown
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
RE: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc.
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc.
  by "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com>
more NU...oh my
  by "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net>
Re: more NU...oh my
  by <Praestant@aol.com>
Retraction - CCM/Trad
  by "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net>
organ transcriptions
  by "james nerstheimer" <enigma1685@hotmail.com>
Re: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc.
  by "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es>
RE: The Highway Code part 1
  by "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: RE: "Episcopalian" From: "Glenda" <gksjd85@direcway.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:16:05 -0600   But a true Southerner will always add a syllable or two if possible. Hence, "Episcopalian" down here could be any part of speech (including an expletive), and a whole litany of jokes go with the name.   Glenda Sutton gksjd85@direcway.com     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Stan Yoder Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:54 PM To: PipeChat Subject: "Episcopalian"   AFAIK, this word is NOT an adjective, but a noun. The adjectival form is 'Episcopal.'   Thus,e.g., "He/she is an Episcopalian, and sings Episcopal hymns."          
(back) Subject: Re: Estey stock models From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@mindspring.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:23:44 -0600     ----- Original Message ----- From: <quilisma@cox.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:39 PM Subject: Re: Estey stock models     > I started to say that the Estey catalog had been reprinted, but that was > the REED organ catalog ... fascinating ... there's one plate of a HUGE > three-manual reed organ with a pipe-fence on three sides ... nobody > knows what happened to it   OHS member Paul Carton in St. Louis has an Estey reed organ similar to = this.   John Speller    
(back) Subject: Re: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc. From: "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 19:27:08 -0600   I hope we remember that we all can praise the Lord in whatever way we see fit. One way is not better than another, just different. James James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Artisan of Wood WWW.JamesGrebe.com 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 pianoman@accessus.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Greene" <maltose_falcon@yahoo.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 2:11 PM Subject: Re: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc.     > Alan & Company, > > Most of the "Praze and Worship" musicians (especially > the gee-tar players and drummers) don't read music > anyway, so the "Praze and Worship Team Leader" (who > might or might not be paper-trained) generally gives > the musicians a sheet of paper with the chords listed > above the words. The musicians chord along, bang > their drums, etc., while the singers howl out the > words (usually in unison.) It really drives those of > us who ARE paper-trained nuts. > > The words are communicated to the congregation on > screen. Take away their video projectors and > Powerpoint, and there is no way the happy-clappy crowd > would be able hold a church service these days. > > The Praze Team and the congregation learn the songs > through repetition, repetition, repetition, (did I > mention repetition?), of which there is PLENTY in the > "Praze and Worship" genre of music. > > You are SOOOO fortunate in not having to endure all of > this! :) > > George Greene > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster > http://search.yahoo.com > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc. From: <Pologaptommy@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 20:51:19 EST   In a message dated 3/2/04 5:28:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, pianoman@accessus.net writes:   > >Alan &Company, > > > >Most of the "Praze and Worship" musicians (especially > >the gee-tar players and drummers) don't read music > >anyway, so the "Praze and Worship Team Leader" (who > >might or might not be paper-trained) generally gives > >the musicians a sheet of paper with the chords listed > >above the words. The musicians chord along, bang > >their drums, etc., while the singers howl out the > >words (usually in unison.) It really drives those of > >us who ARE paper-trained nuts. > > > >The words are communicated to the congregation on > >screen. Take away their video projectors and > >Powerpoint, and there is no way the happy-clappy crowd > >would be able hold a church service these days. > > > >The Praze Team and the congregation learn the songs > >through repetition, repetition, repetition, (did I > >mention repetition?), of which there is PLENTY in the > >"Praze and Worship" genre of music. > > > >You are SOOOO fortunate in not having to endure all of > >this! :) > > > >George Greene >   I just want to point out that in the year 2000 our church renovated our sanctuary. During that time the church decided to install video screens. = We still hold two traditional Sunday morning services and the hymns are accompanied = on the organ. However, since the installation of the screens, congregation singing has improved 200%. People not only have their heads out of the = hymnal, many of the older members of the congregation can actually SEE the words = to the hymns. The congregation is singing out, and they seen to "want" to sing = now. We still list the page numbers for the hymns in the worship guide, and on = the screen before the hymn is started, so that those who wish to use the = hymnals can use them. We also, to my surprise, have not neglected the hymnals, as =   they were replaced last year with new ones and many people still use them. I HATE when people stereotype the use of video equipment during services, = to those churches who only have informal praise and worship services. This equipment, when used tastefully, can certainly be an asset, and a blessing = to a church. We have proved that, because as stated earlier- before the video = screens people would barely sing, alot of the early service people could not see = the words, and peoples heads are now up and out of the hymnals. Thanks, Josh White Organs, FUMC Graham, TX    
(back) Subject: Re: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc. From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:49:42 -0600   Reminds me of that immortal phrase - there are no wrong notes in the worship of the Lord! Sorry, wrong notes really do exist and some ways are really better than others. Our whole society is far too prone to say Good Enough for lackluster efforts. Surely, the Lord deserves our very best, not just Good Enough!   Russ Greene     On Mar 2, 2004, at 7:27 PM, James Grebe wrote:   > I hope we remember that we all can praise the Lord in whatever way we > see > fit. One way is not better than another, just different.    
(back) Subject: Re: St. Mark's in Grand Rapids From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:22:45 EST   1910 reeds would be at old pitch... changing them to modern pitch would, = of course, change their tone, if that is the reason they were purchased.  
(back) Subject: Where'air we are blown From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 18:23:24 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   I marvel at the "Happy Clappy" brigade.....so certain, so full of themselves and so utterly bereft of humility.   As I read "pipechat" I just ponder on what is happening across "there," and whether you guys are not approaching a similar crisis point which we, here in the UK, appear to have reached.   On the surface, one might be forgiven for thinking that the only successful churches are those which embrace "happy clappy" worship. There they are, weeping and wailing, waving their arms and swooning into the arms of ministers.......but that's entertainment, hey?   Here in the UK, there are certain centres of such charismatic "excellence".......full every Sunday, and happy to let everyone know that. However, because they are few and far between, they tend to attract a white, predominantly white-collar, minor professional, heterosexual, two children each, middle-class, 4 X 4 owning family congregation. (We don't have a middle England, or the place would sink!)   These churches seem to have nil appeal to blue-collar workers and their families, and represent the moralistic stance of the new "whiter than white, politically correct" victims of society to-day.   These churches are also completely shunned by the traditional churches, and loathed by traditionalists, catholics and everyone else.   Nevertheless, in what can only be seen as a grotesque competition, the traditional churches have gone the way of the happy clappy style, by introducing the pop rave-culture of their upstart competitors.   It is only when one stands back, takes stock and counts bums on seats, that a more sinister picture emerges.   Across ALL denominations (factions?), church attendance is now about 1% of the total population in the UK.....2% best estimate!   The question I would ask, is whether the happy clappy approach isn't just the last, dying gasp of traditional Christianity; dressed up to look more attractive than it is to the average man and woman in the streets?   Indeed, in all western culture, the church has been a pivotal component in society.   Why do people feel so alienated?   I was saying over twenty years ago, that western religion was on the brink of radical change, which had absolutely nothing to do with worship "style."   What happens, I wonder, when the churches that are left start to close their doors, or amalgamate as they have in Holland and the UK? The implications for organists, organ builders, choristers and even clergy, are potentially devastating in the medium term, and deeply unsettling in the short term.   At the very least, having embraced "modern" music (nothing of the sort, of course) and failed, no one can blame the organists and choirs anymore. The truth is, the clergy are becoming marginalised by society at large, and there appears to be a rejection of Christian worship as we know it.   And so to my final question.   Has the time come when we should start promoting the organ as a purely secular instrument and a concert instrument, rather than the psalmists view of the organ as an instrument of a hundred voices?   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK             __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you=92re looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Where'air we are blown From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:47:47 EST   Colin,   Wow.   Bill H. SJE Boston.    
(back) Subject: Re: Registration practices in Bach works (LONG) From: "Del Case" <dcase@puc.edu> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 18:56:02 -0700       Colin Mitchell wrote: > > Hello, >   > > Once in the mind-set of baroque music, I really do not > want to hear romantic conceptions of Bach's "intended" > musical fantasies.......you know the > argument....."Bach would have LOVED a romantic organ." > > He may or may not have done, but the reality is, he > didn't! >     Bach probably would have LOVED a romantic organ, had he been living in the last half of the 19th century. HOWEVER - had he lived then, and been a composer of organ music, he would have composed ROMANTIC music, not BAROQUE. Therefore, that line, and I realize you are quoting, has nothing what-so-ever to do with the performance of Baroque music composed by Bach or anyone else!   Del W. Case Pacific Union College  
(back) Subject: Re: Where'air we are blown From: "jch" <opus1100@catoe.org> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 20:57:08 -0600   At 08:23 PM 3/2/04, you wrote: >On the surface, one might be forgiven for thinking >that the only successful churches are those which >embrace "happy clappy" worship.   I am happy to say our Lutheran Church doesn't need "happy clappy". The membership roles are increasing and at a recent new members class the pastor asked why the had come to St. Mark. A large number of them = responded that it was because we offered a "decent" traditional service. We have two =   traditional services, one on Saturday evening and the other at 8 on Sunday =   morning. Attendance at both is increasing. We also offer a blended (mostly =   contemporary) service at 11 on Sunday. The 8a service usually has double the number in attendance than the 11a (in spite of the early hour), a fact =   which baffles the contemporary backers. I left two previous churches because of the music....not that I am totally against contemporary music...it is just that for some reason that crowd believes ear splitting sounds are necessary.I might add the the folks at that class were young adults in their late 20s and 30s...so it is not that we are catering to = the older generation. Thank the Lord.   jch      
(back) Subject: BWV 534 From: "Christopher Howerter" <OrgelspielerKMD@msn.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 22:07:48 -0500   Dear List,   I am not going to attempt to answer the questions to this post, though I = must say that I have noticed the gobs upon gobs of postings in pipechat = right now (which I have deleted without reading). My eyes simply cannot = stand it (being facetious). However, perhaps someone could answer this = question. Nevertheless, I wanted to say that John Weaver would be proud = of this man for doing these trills throughout the piece!   Sincerely, Christopher J. Howerter, SPC Director of Music & Organist St. Paul's Lutheran Church Bethlehem, PA Cell: (610) 462-8017   -------------------- Original Message:   Subject: BWV 534 From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com<about:blank>> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 14:37:16 -0600   Somehow Bach's Prelude & Fugue in F Minor (BWV 534) has always been a = piece I like to play during the Lenten season. In the fugue, there is a trill = on the 4th note of the subject/answer, and I play this trill in every entry throughout the piece, wherever it may appear. This isn't always easy. = For example, in the 15th measure from the end of the piece, I alternate = thumbs on the trill.   What I'm wondering about is what the length of this trill should be, and should it have closing notes. Some performers may play a dutiful, perfunctory, 4-note short shake, but I prefer trilling for a least a = quarter note if not for the full duration of the half note.   I should like your opinions on:   1) the length of the trill; 2) the idea of closing notes; 3) the importance of treating each one consistently or allowing some = freedom as the context and fluidity of the surrounding voices may (seem to) = warrant.   Many thanks, Robert Lind  
(back) Subject: Re: "Episcopalian" From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 19:30:08 -0800   "Lute", a pun on "lutefisk", a favorite delicacy of Scandinavian Lutherans (grin).   Bud   Stan Yoder wrote:   > AFAIK, this word is NOT an adjective, but a noun. The adjectival form is =   > 'Episcopal.' > > Thus,e.g., "He/she is an Episcopalian, and sings Episcopal hymns." > > OTOH, "Lute" for Lutheran is a new one to me. Appropriate in that Marty > Luther played the lute. > > Stan Yoder, Lute > Pittsburgh > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Pipes for sale From: "Brent Johnson" <brentmj@charter.net> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 21:55:10 -0600   2 Ranks of pipes currently for sale are listed on Ebay, as much as you may hate or love Ebay, it's always worked well for me. 2' Kilgen Fifteenth, and a brand new 8' Wicks Trompette can be found by going to http://www.wicks.com/organ/usedparts.htm     Brent Johnson ORGANLive - Music of the organ on demand www.organlive.com    
(back) Subject: RE: Where'air we are blown From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 23:34:55 -0600   > I marvel at the "Happy Clappy" brigade.....so certain, > so full of themselves and so utterly bereft of > humility.   *I* marvel at the LACK of humility in statements like this, and that = praise musicians are nothing more than chord mongers and lack vocal talent. Perhaps the mirror should reflect both directions, no?      
(back) Subject: RE: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc. From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 23:35:51 -0600   > I hope we remember that we all can praise the Lord in whatever way we = see > fit. One way is not better than another, just different.   AMEN and AMEN.   Jeff      
(back) Subject: Re: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc. From: "Jan Nijhuis" <nijhuis@email.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 14:36:17 +0800   Josh,   I believe your church has hit upon a winning combination! Using projection = screens as a suplemental tool, not a replacement for hymnals. I've heard = of several churchs where the projection system was used effectivly to = supplement the talking points of the sermon; just as often, though, video = clips are projected that are mass-market sales pitches to sell = denominational trinkets. The worst offense that I recall was a basketball = game being projected during a congregational/fellowship dinner just to get = some more people to attend. What are the chances the extra bodies were = fellowshipping while the rest of the members were bing distracted = themselves.   I can imagine a future where you can have a sing-along with prerecorded = "concerts" -- turn up the volume if the congregation can't sing. (doom and = gloom glass half empty?)   Back to the brighter side: If not PowerPoint, Sibelius or Finale could be used to project both music = and words. It would be an effort, and the words might still be "too small." It's a = thought ... > I just want to point out that in the year 2000 our church renovated our > sanctuary. During that time the church decided to install video = screens. We still > hold two traditional Sunday morning services and the hymns are = accompanied on > the organ. However, since the installation of the screens, congregation =   > singing has improved 200%. People not only have their heads out of the = hymnal, > many of the older members of the congregation can actually SEE the words = to the > hymns. The congregation is singing out, and they seen to "want" to sing = now. > We still list the page numbers for the hymns in the worship guide, and = on the > screen before the hymn is started, so that those who wish to use the = hymnals > can use them. We also, to my surprise, have not neglected the hymnals, = as > they were replaced last year with new ones and many people still use = them. > I HATE when people stereotype the use of video equipment during = services, to > those churches who only have informal praise and worship services. This =   > equipment, when used tastefully, can certainly be an asset, and a = blessing to a > church. We have proved that, because as stated earlier- before the = video screens > people would barely sing, alot of the early service people could not see = the > words, and peoples heads are now up and out of the hymnals. > Thanks, > Josh White > Organs, FUMC Graham, TX   -- Jan Nijhuis nijhuis@email.com   -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm    
(back) Subject: more NU...oh my From: "terry hicks" <Terrick@webtv.net> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 00:57:52 -0600 (CST)   Dear jch and others, Perhaps I did not make myself clear. My point was that for years, the Church Music program had no interaction with the seminaries. I'm well aware that flaw was being addressed, but perhaps it was too late in coming.   Rubsam certainly is gifted, but as others have pointed out, he could go off on tangents that were annoying if not just plain odd. He played a stunning recital on the Fisk at SMU for the Dallas convention, but he used the tremelo to the point where I wanted to disable it! Fresh ideas are not good if they distract the listener...it's the difference between "oh wow" and "what the hell was that!"   And once again, I thing Gregory was justified in his anger with the insinuations made in a very irresponsible posting that called into question the abilities of NU's current organ teachers. They were doing the best possible within a hostile situation.    
(back) Subject: Re: more NU...oh my From: <Praestant@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 02:05:55 EST   In a message dated 3.3.04 1.58.55 AM, Terrick@webtv.net writes:   > He played a > stunning recital on the Fisk at SMU for the Dallas convention, > but he used the tremelo to the point where I wanted to disable it! > Was it the tremulant? or was it simply with the wind stabilizer = disengaged? Either way, it was quite refreshing, it was easily the most exciting = concert of the convention, and the only one I recall resulting in a standing ovation.    
(back) Subject: Retraction - CCM/Trad From: "Jeff White" <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 00:07:36 -0600   All,   I would like to apologize for the way I remarked to the comment made about humility or lack thereof in a previous posting. Not for WHAT I said, but the way I said it.   First, please understand that I was raised in a traditional Lutheran = church, and I too was grieved to see CCM making such a splash. However, praise music CAN be done well, and it can be worshipful. And it's here. Why = can't WE get along? We say that they're bereft of humility, but to be honest, I don't see much coming from our direction either. It's a war not to be = won, so let's just call it even and think about the higher purpose for the church. It's not for us. It's for HIM. It's almost like that joke about someone who dies and goes to heaven, and as St. Peter is showing this = person around, they walk down a hallway. St. Peter says "We must be very quiet = as we pass this door." The person asks why, and Peter replies, "Because it's full of _______, and they think they're the only ones here." Of course = the blank is usually "LCMS Lutherans", but it could be filled in by anything.   I guess I'm in a bit of a mood because there is SO VERY MUCH more to be worried about: RC Priests, the Anglican crisis, people dying in unjust wars, diseases running rampant, etc...it just transcends all for which we argue about within our parishes regarding music.   Something to meditate on: many churches offer both styles. The more of = us that refuse to play for a church that has any form of CCM is leaving more jobs for those of us who are flexible and willing to embrace worship in = any form.     :)   Peace and joy! Jeff    
(back) Subject: organ transcriptions From: "james nerstheimer" <enigma1685@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 02:03:57 -0600   Looks as if I may wind up playing the dedicatory at my church sometime in May for the rebuilt organ and there is a keen need to infuse some new = stuff into my repertoire. I want to get my mitts on a transcription of Rimsky-Korsakov's "Procession Of The Nobles". I heard David Schrader play =   this after Mass one morning and it was nothing short of awesome. I think = he played his own arrangement. Wonder if it's published?   Wouldn't mind having a whole volume actually. Strauss' "Die Fledermaus" overture and "Radetzky March" would be some fun pieces to toss out to an audience.   Any info would be helpful.   jim   O):^)   _________________________________________________________________ Frustrated with dial-up? Lightning-fast Internet access for as low as $29.95/month. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/    
(back) Subject: Re: Video Projectors, Hymnals, etc. From: "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 10:25:55 +0100   Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the practice of displaying words on a video screen for the audience to sing along correctly known as "karaoke"?   Peter.  
(back) Subject: RE: The Highway Code part 1 From: "John Foss" <harfo32@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 10:00:48 +0000 (GMT)   Thank you! Thank you, Colin and Will! What wonderful memories! Gerard Hoffnung was also a gifted cartoonist - one particularly relevant one was of an organist, who bore a strong resemblance to Ralph Downes at the RFH organ, looking in the mirror and seeing a police car. John Foss   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D www.johnfoss.gr http://groups.yahoo.com/group/orgofftop/ Topics of the week : Public dishonesty Passion aroused     ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html