PipeChat Digest #4337 - Thursday, March 4, 2004
 
Re: Doug Cleveland
  by <DarrylbytheSea@aol.com>
Music of Gordon Young
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Jumbotrons and such
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re:  Conservatory styled programs in Major cites
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Conservatory styled programs in major cities
  by "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com>
Re: Music of Gordon Young
  by "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com>
We have an anonymous Repub in the house
  by "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com>
Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites
  by "Mark W. McClellan" <omicron@prairieinet.net>
Re: Re: Jumbotrons and such
  by <reedstop@charter.net>
Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites
  by <Praestant@aol.com>
Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites
  by "Mark W. McClellan" <omicron@prairieinet.net>
Re: Cincinnati (off-topic)
  by <ContraReed@aol.com>
Episcopal hymns
  by "Gerald Montagna" <geraldrm@earthlink.net>
Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Jumbotrons and such
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Jumbotrons and such
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: Jumbotrons and such
  by <DERREINETOR@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Doug Cleveland From: <DarrylbytheSea@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 06:05:30 EST   In a message dated 3/4/2004 12:14:01 AM Central Standard Time, = lindr@core.com writes: He (Doug Cleveland) is also a genuinely nice person,   Hi, Y'all!   Through this entire period of postings concerning Northwestern's organ department, I wanted to say the same thing about Doug, and Robert's post = made me say a hearty "Amen!" He's one of the kindest and genuinely nice guys in our business.   When he was an undergrad at Eastman, he came to play on our Sunday = afternoon series, and of course, wowed them with his fine playing (from memory), but = the entire church staff was taken with him for his sweet nature. In fact, when = it became known that he had not been to Disneyworld, one of our secretaries = took the day off, hit the ATM, and with another choir member, took him to Disneyworld for the day. He's the kinda guy we need more of in our = profession.   Have a great day!   Yours,   Darryl by the Sea    
(back) Subject: Music of Gordon Young From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 21:04:14 +0800   Can anyone tell me a source of the organ music of Gordon Young? I have several of his books but would like to get as many more as I can. I find = his music suits my congregation very well, particularly the voluntaries based = on hymn tune. Thank you, Bob Elms.    
(back) Subject: Re: Jumbotrons and such From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:21:09 EST   >Since members of the praze team and congregation don't >have anything in their hands, they can clap, wave >their arms, etc. while singing.     Ok, I'm getting tired of the contemporary music and contemporary worship bashing that's going on. It has nothing to do with organs. Just because = certain people on the list don't agree with it doesn't mean it's wrong. I think = some of you need to go back to your Bibles and look through all the expressions = of praise that are mentioned in there. Sure, churches that worship like that =   generally don't want anything to do with organs or anything traditional, = but who cares. At least in the United States, we have the freedom to choose where = we want to worship. We don't have a state church telling us where we have to =   worship or how we have to worship. If someone doesn't like contemporary = worship, they can go to a traditional church or a church that is more "middle of = the road" or they can even go to a non-Christian service of some type, from = Jewish, to Buddhist to any number of other meta-physical belief systems.   As to expressions in worship, let's go back to our Bibles and look through =   some salient points just quickly and we'll see that what the so called "happy-clappy" crowd does IS indeed Biblical. Psalm 47 begins with "Clap = your hands, all you nations, shout to God with cries of joy." Psalm 98 "Sing to the = Lord a new song" Psalm 149:3 " Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp"   Yes, there are also references to being quiet "Be still and know that I am =   God" and refereneces to lifting hands, but it is not our place to judge = what another does in worship is right or wrong. I am sick and tired of people = on this list making judgement calls as to the appropriateness of what is proper in = a service. When did God make any of the list memembers here God's worship committee members? Do you know why the contemporary churches are booming? = Because traditional churches are so boring. Not only is the preaching dull, the music is dreadfully dull. Sorry to say it folks, but many of the people = on here are the ones responsible for the growth of what you abhor so much. So = maybe instead of bitching about how you hate "happy clappy" so much, you might = want to take a look at what you are doing and see how you might rectify the situation. It can be as simple as playing the hymns with a little bit of = interest. It can be as easy as playing some interesting literature. It can be as easy = as not copping "holier than thou" attitudes with the congregation, choir = members, and staff at church.   Points to ponder.....   Monty Bennett    
(back) Subject: Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:25:26 EST   >A vote for any Republican is a vote for bigotry, racism and heterosexism.   I'm a Republican, Please tell me what this has to do with organs?    
(back) Subject: Re: Conservatory styled programs in major cities From: "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:53:01 -0500   From Desiree':   "Cincinati CCM...is'nt Cincinati still in racial tension? That plays a = part ya know. I am an African-Ameican Woman who plays the PIPE Organ. Where are most pipe organs? ANd that's why I left Mississippi. I even remember very vividly during the summer of the yer 2000 that a white church had a family there. That family wanted to bring their black friends to church. In the year 2000, people, this white church Beulah Baptist Church of Florence, MS told their members that black people were not welcomed. This was in the = year 2000! The story ws all in the news in Jackson and on the front of every MS newspaper. and one of my colleags told me it was probably a matter of time before I would apply for jobs and...well you get the drift."   The racial problems here are different from other major cities mostly in that they received a lot of national publicity a couple years ago and also in that people are now actively working to improve things. What you should know, though, is that Cincinnati is an extremely conservative place, conservative in a way that pervades just about every aspect of life you = can imagine. This may have something to do with the prevailing historic ethnicity, which is south German Catholic. (BTW, Bud, it does look like = the ordinance that prohibits extending protection from discrimination to gay = and lesbian people is going to be repealed in November.)   As in many places, Sunday morning is still the most segregated time of the week. However my sense is that as a trained professional you would = obviously be welcomed into any of the major black churches (the population in the = city itself is 43% black so there are plenty of large African-American congregations) as well as in the majority of large white churches if you didn't mind playing for a mostly white congregation.   As Bud mentions, salaries do seem to be low, although the cost of living = is much lower than a lot of places, too. I've been job hunting and there doesn't seem to be the same level of organist shortage here as I hear = about in other cities, either--probably due to the presence of CCM as well as to = a lot of left-over organists from the now defunct Baldwin headquarters. Even though many of these people are semi-amateurs I think the supply does help drive salaries down.   Emily A.        
(back) Subject: Re: Music of Gordon Young From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:35:45 -0600   I'm sure there are many good vendors/outlets. For example, SheetMusicPlus might work for you:   http://www.sheetmusicplus.com/store/smp_searchresults.html?cart=3D327654587= 233 76376   Gordon Young (1919-1998) is/was in the catalogs of at least 9 publishers, some of whom no longer exist or have merged, willingly or unwillingly, = with snowballing conglomerates. This is a composer whom snobbish organists will dismiss out of hand. Recently I've tried to get over my pre-conceived prejudice and to find out first-hand whether I like or dislike his music. For me it is uneven, even now in my more accommodating outlook, but = certain things have real charm. I can't decide if he lapsed into bad taste a lot = or lapsed into good taste occasionally.   Works I've played within the last couple of years:   Chant Heroique (ECS, formerly Galaxy)   Prelude in Classic Style (Sacred Music Press)   Toccata (in C from some Lorenz toccata album, I suspect; copyright 1966; I made a photocopy and the folio numbers are 13-19)   Arioso from "Sonata in Baroque Style" (Fred Bock, which company I assume = has been scooped up by someone else)   I'd like to know what pieces other organists on this list like to play. I have undoubtedly overlooked some usable material.   Robert Lind   ----- Original Message ----- From: bobelms <bobelms@westnet.com.au>   > Can anyone tell me a source of the organ music of Gordon Young? I have > several of his books but would like to get as many more as I can. I find his > music suits my congregation very well, particularly the voluntaries = based on > hymn tune. > Thank you, > Bob Elms.    
(back) Subject: We have an anonymous Repub in the house From: "Robert Lind" <lindr@core.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:44:40 -0600   It means you should never play a Roosevelt organ, for one thing :-) Are = you so embarrassed about your political persuasion that you can't sign = your name?   Robert Lind ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RMB10@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:25 AM Subject: Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites     >A vote for any Republican is a vote for bigotry, racism and = heterosexism. =20 I'm a Republican, Please tell me what this has to do with organs?    
(back) Subject: Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites From: "Mark W. McClellan" <omicron@prairieinet.net> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 08:53:45 -0600     Praestant@aol.com=20 wrote some pretty angry stuff     I can't imagine living with that much anger for nearly 4 years, = probably only aggravated after you cashed that tax cut check. I suffered = through 8 years of the Clintons and just learned to make the best of = what I considered a bad situation and go on with life. What could I do = about it? Vote and not be angry and move on. There is always good in = some people. Clinton's antics in the Oval Office even inspired my = secretary and me!   Mark  
(back) Subject: Re: Re: Jumbotrons and such From: <reedstop@charter.net> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 15:20:05 +0000   Amen, Monty!! If sermons and church music show as much passion as you = showed just now (like we do at where I play), then maybe churches WOULD be = fuller.   Peace, Jeff     > > Ok, I'm getting tired of the contemporary music and contemporary = worship > bashing that's going on. It has nothing to do with organs. Just = because certain > people on the list don't agree with it doesn't mean it's wrong.    
(back) Subject: Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites From: <Praestant@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:39:31 EST     In a message dated 4.3.04 9.54.32 AM, omicron@prairieinet.net writes:     > Clinton's antics in the Oval Office even inspired my secretary and me! >   Did Bush's antics inspire you to pre-emptively invade the next county?    
(back) Subject: Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites From: "Mark W. McClellan" <omicron@prairieinet.net> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:52:44 -0600     ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Praestant@aol.com=20   Did Bush's antics inspire you to pre-emptively invade the next county? =           Read the message; it's all about anger. =20   Mark  
(back) Subject: Re: Cincinnati (off-topic) From: <ContraReed@aol.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 10:53:15 -0500   In a message dated 3/4/2004 8:53:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, = eadams@cinci.rr.com writes:   > Cincinnati is an extremely conservative place, > conservative in a way that pervades just about every aspect > of life you can > imagine.   Q: How many Cincinnatans does it take to screw in a light bulb?   A: Just one. And we prefer that you not use the expression "screw".  
(back) Subject: Episcopal hymns From: "Gerald Montagna" <geraldrm@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 10:54:49 -0500 (GMT-05:00)   I wasn't getting relevant answers to my question, so I'll give a specific e= xample. This week in our parish the hymn tunes will be St. Helena, A la ve= nue de Noel, General Seminary and Mit freuden zart. Amongst my very numero= us collections of hymn preludes and postludes, I don't have a single one on= any of these four tunes. "A la venue de noel" is anything but obscure for= Episcopalians, it's the very standard Lenten hymn "Kind maker of the world= ". These are the kind of hymns I was referring to in my previous post, tha= t are causing me frustration.   The main purpose of playing hymn preludes is to acquaint the congregation w= ith the melody. For organists in large episcopal churches, this usually is= n't necessary because you have paid choirs to lead the hymns, and usually a= very stable congregation that has been singing the hymns since childhood. = Parish churches don't have paid choristers, some don't even have choirs an= ymore because of the advanced age of the congregation. Also people are beg= inning to attend who never sang these hymns before, mostly immigrants (most= of whom don't read music). Furthermore, one rector may choose hymns neve= r chosen by previous rectors. In my parish, the rectors traditionally stuc= k to 50 hymns out of the whole hymnal so that the current rector constantly= gets complaints from the old-timers that "I've never sang this hymn before= in my life!" In a parish with no choir to lead hymns, newcomers to the Ep= iscopal church, and a rector trying to broaden the selection from the hymna= l, my hymn-tune preludes are a necessity. That is why a lack of preludes o= n tunes like "A la venue de Noel" is a serious problem for me, and why I po= sed the question of how others deal with it.      
(back) Subject: Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 11:00:19 -0500   On 3/4/04 12:10 AM, "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> wrote:   > Beulah Baptist Church of Florence, MS told their members that black peopl= e > were not welcomed. This was in the year 2000! The story ws all in the new= s in > Jackson and on the front of every MS newspaper.   That is good news. Simply because, if it were the =B3common=B2 mindset in Mississippi, it would NOT be news, and would NOT have made the papers. The fact that it was treated as shocking means that there HAS been some progres= s since I last passed that way, in 1961. Obviously, the fact that this HAPPENED in Florence (or anywhere) is nothing short of utterly revolting.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Jumbotrons and such From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 11:41:44 -0500   On 3/4/04 8:21 AM, "RMB10@aol.com" <RMB10@aol.com> wrote:   > but it is not our place to judge what another does in worship is right or > wrong. I am sick and tired of people on this list making judgement calls= as > to the appropriateness of what is proper in a service. >=20 Monty: I=B9m guilty as charged, and must apologize.   Just for context, we=B9re VERY traditionalist (hymnals, etc.). But we=B9re not totally frozen. We do some jazz, some Gospel, some Appalachian, and now an= d then clap, wave arms, and dance in the aisles.   Alan www.stlukesnyc.org    
(back) Subject: Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 08:51:41 -0800       Mark W. McClellan wrote:   > > > Praestant@aol.com <mailto:Praestant@aol.com> > wrote some pretty angry stuff > > > I can't imagine living with that much anger for nearly 4 years, > probably only aggravated after you cashed that tax cut check.   WHAT TAX CUT CHECK? *I* never got one. Oh, that's right. I only made $36K ... I wasn't RICH enough to get one.   Bud     I > suffered through 8 years of the Clintons and just learned to make > the best of what I considered a bad situation and go on with > life. What could I do about it? Vote and not be angry and move on. > There is always good in some people. Clinton's antics in the Oval > Office even inspired my secretary and me! > > Mark      
(back) Subject: Re: Jumbotrons and such From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2004 08:53:20 -0800   I don't think the argument is advanced by bashing traditional churches, traditional worship, and traditional music either. I can name you at least two churches that are doing EVERYTHING wrong by Monty's lights, and are growing like WEEDS:   St. Matthew's Anglican Catholic Church, Newport Beach CA St. Thomas Episcopal Church, New York City   Bud   reedstop@charter.net wrote:   > Amen, Monty!! If sermons and church music show as much passion as you = showed just now (like we do at where I play), then maybe churches WOULD be = fuller. > > Peace, > Jeff > > > >>>Ok, I'm getting tired of the contemporary music and contemporary = worship >> >>bashing that's going on. It has nothing to do with organs. Just = because certain >>people on the list don't agree with it doesn't mean it's wrong. > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Conservatory styled programs in Major cites From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 09:00:15 -0800 (PST)   Yes and it's a shame that I have to be careful just because of who I am as = a Sacred Musician and Pipe organist. When that happened in Florence MS, it = was an awakening that someday, I would apply for a job as an organist at a = church in MS and that my race would come into play. So, I have to be very = careful as to where I continue my education not only for the sake of = having a good teacher, but also for the sake of my practicing what Divine = has called me to do. Not only does race play a part in some situations, = but sex, and sexual orientation as well. I heard that the former female = organist at a prominent FL church left, and the pastor said that never = again would he hire a woman.     Praestant@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 4.3.04 12.14.04 AM, nicemusica@yahoo.com writes:   In the year 2000, people, this white church Beulah Baptist Church of = Florence, MS told their members that black people were not welcomed.   In the year 2004, a man who was not elected president is throwing his = support behind the desecration of the U.S. Constitution to = institutionalize discrimination, to constitutionalize a second class of = people. A vote for any Republican is a vote for bigotry, racism and = heterosexism. I share your shock, Desiree', but I am not at all surprised. =     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60649 http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html   --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what you=92re looking for faster.  
(back) Subject: Re: Jumbotrons and such From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 12:04:56 EST   Dear Monty and List,     While I agree that "contemporary worship bashing" is nonproductive, I disagree with your assertion that a truly engaged discussion of the = subject of "contemporary" worship styles "has nothing to do with organs". On the = contrary, I think it has very much to do with organs, and also very much to do with = the state of church musicianship in the Christian denominations and sects.   Personally--and I speak for no one but myself--I don't put much credence = in Biblical "proof-texting" to prove points either for or against anything. = Since there are no directions in the Bible as to exactly how and when one should =   "Clap your hands", I would suggest that whatever kind of worship the = ancient Israelites were carrying out (complete with animal sacrifices, I may add) = would look very different from the kind of charismatic Christian or Catholic = worship one sees today. Like many mainstream Catholics and Protestants, I believe = that the church began to evolve long before what we now know as "the Bible" was =   anything like the book we know today. As the Anglicans say, the faith is = like a three-legged stool: resting on Scripture, Tradition and Reason. "Bible" Christians, at least in my view, tend to forget that liturgy and worship = were evolving long before Christians could actually agree on what texts would = be included in the canons. That's why we have so many epistles from St. Paul!   That said, I'm certain that "popular" song is very much the basis for much = of the church music that we deem today to be "traditional". I'm certain = because I've seen the proof--in undergraduate Freshman Music History Survey. You = don't have to go to college to read these books, by the way. In the US, a well-appointed Borders or Barnes and Noble stocks these textbooks, many of = which can be had for a reasonable price. In London, try Foyles (SP?). I believe it's = close to an underground stop, though it's been many years since I've been there. =   Intellectual curiosity is all that's necessary to investigate this matter.   What Martin Luther, Bach, and others did with popular melodies--as far as = I can tell from studying and playing such archaic music--was to "sneak" them = in to established modes of performing church music. The CCM movement has a = very different, and quite radical, agenda: to force this music into established =   liturgical formulae with intentional disregard for the flow of liturgical tradition.   Here is where is becomes relevant to organs. As I stated in my March 1st = post to this list, "This kind of worship (CCM/nonliturgical) fits perfectly = with the kind of ....Christianity practiced by churches of (the American "free church") tradition". I went on to suggest that, in my opinion, this kind = of radical change in liturgical churches is neither fully historical or even = desirable.   I don't see any problem with people of the "Gospel Church" tradition = updating their music to include praise bands and jumbotrons. If you look at so many = of those old, Southern White "gospel" hymns (written in 6/8, for the most = part, with text that barely conceals the author's sublimated eroticising of the person of Christ--see Virgil Thompson's essay on this issue) it is the = logical outgrowth of 19th century Protestant pietism. In fact, I have a soft spot = for some 19th century hymns, and for some CCM.   The problem I see is when churches from other traditions see this model as =   some kind of panacea for the failure of musicians and clergy to properly = (and open-mindedly) express doctrinal questions. Here, Monty, I agree with you. = In traditional churches, if you want to keep your organ and your choir, you = have to do some WORK. My only objection is to the cheap solution of co-opting = other traditions in a way which is disingenuous, which happens often.   Pax Tecum, Bill H. SJE, Boston