PipeChat Digest #4369 - Sunday, March 14, 2004 combo organs by <email@example.com> RC music for lent by <RSiegel920@aol.com> Holy Week by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Combo Organs by "Roy Redman" <email@example.com> Re: RC music for lent by <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Combo Organs by <email@example.com> Re: Holy Week by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> RE: combo organs by "Michael David" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: 32' Additions by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Re: combo organs by "David Scribner" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: 32' Additions by "noel jones" <email@example.com> Old pipework by "David Scribner" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Old Pipes by "David Scribner" <email@example.com> RE: SLIGHTLY off-topic: Gloria in excelsis on Maundy Thursday by "Glenda" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Old pipework by "Jim McFarland" <email@example.com> RE: Organ use during Easter Triduum by "Jeff White" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Chicago Cathedral by <email@example.com> Tin plague by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> old pipes by "black" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: combo organs From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:24:50 -0800 Butbutbut ... that pipework can be RESTORED and STILL be better than a lot of things you'd get today ... for instance, hard rolled zinc basses .... and at 1/2 to 2/3 the COST of new pipework. If there are large-scale wooden Pedal pipes, open OR stopped, there's probably no point in replacing THOSE. A 16' Open Wood is worth its weight in SILVER. The MECHANISM? probably, unless the original organ had slider chests to which pull-downs were added later, and are in good condition. I thought the old organ at Holy Name was a Hook or a Johnson. Did Weickhart rebuild it at some point? If you've got Hook or Johnson pipes, KEEP 'em. And if you've got Hook or Johnson slider chests in restorable condition, they CAN be restored and new electro-pneumatic pulldowns fitted to them, if needed. The TRICK is to find an organ-builder who knows how to mix and match all that and come up with something BESIDES minestrone <g>. IF, as the makers of the DIGITAL side of a combo organ ADVERTISE, you can choose who builds the PIPE side, well, then, you have a fighting chance, though MOST of the best builders do not build combo organs according to the following principles of the APOBA: APOBA Principles Concerning the Use of Electronically Generated Sounds adopted March 2000 The pipe organ is a musical instrument with a long and distinguished history. It has had many design styles, actions, and wind systems; it has always used organ pipes as its basic sound source. The sound of the organ pipe distinguishes it from all other musical instruments. Beginning in 1935, there have been designed and marketed a succession of inexpensive substitutes for the pipe organ using varied forms of electronic technology. Pipe organ builders, true to their craft and to their history, clearly distanced themselves from these substitutes. The American Guild of Organists both officially and in practice has supported this position. As an organization of pipe organ builders, we hold to the following principles regarding electronic sounds in pipe organs carrying an APOBA member's nameplate: 1. The members of APOBA do not favor the practice of replacing organ pipes with electronic substitute sounds. We do not find the substitution of electronic sounds for true pipe sounds to be an improvement of the pipe organ. 2. APOBA recognizes and accepts, however, the occasional use of the following electronic sounds in a pipe organ: A. 32' and 16' Pedal Stops. B. Percussion Effects. Non-pipe sounds in the organ such as chimes, harp, celesta, and others were popular for effects in orchestral and theatre organs. They are occasionally requested by churches of their agents. They have infrequent use in the literature for organ and have little or no effect on the basic pipe organ. C. MIDI Interface. The MIDI interface makes non-pipe sounds from electronic sound sources playable on the pipe organ keyboard. It has a utility in those churches that use music composed for synthesizers and sound modules in addition to the traditional music for pipe organs. 3. APOBA considers use of electronic sounds beyond those specifically listed in Item 2 to be in violation of the principles set forth in this position paper. 4. APOBA considers it a dishonest practice to fail to identify which sound sources are electronically generated and which are pipes. Therefore, electronically generated sounds should be identified in all stop lists in both promotion and in contracts. 5. It is the intention of APOBA to limit our membership to firms that devote their work to pipe organ building. It is the intention of APOBA to continue to be an association of pipe organ builders. APOBA does not welcome membership of firms that build electronic organs, combination electronic/pipe organs, or who do not follow the principles set forth in this position paper. Now ... here's the THING about combo organs: while the development of fuzzy logic devices to track the tuning of individual ranks or even individual pipes appears to have solved the problem of keeping the digital and pipe sides in tune, the problem remains of reproducing the PRESENCE of the digital stops in relation to the pipes ... that takes LOTS of speakers and LOTS of amps to even COME CLOSE, and what most of the digital makers supply with their stock combo organs simply is NOT adequate. Loudspeakers and pipes move the air in different ways; in addition, ranks of pipes are heard SPACIALLY in a different way. There have been various attempts to solve that, notably Baldwin and Conn electronic "pipes", with a small loudspeaker in the base of each. But ideally such electronic "pipes" would have to have a speaker at the mouth AND the top (in the case of open "pipes"), AND, there would have to be sets of 61 "pipes" and speakers for EACH rank. When you get to THAT point, you might as well have a straight pipe organ. Digital QUANTITY is NOT to be preferred over pipe QUALITY ... there is NOTHING in the LITERATURE that can't be played on a GOOD pipe organ of 30 stops ... some would say even LESS. Nor are hundreds of ranks (pipe OR digital) needed to fill a church with sound. MANY of the old organs in those ENORMOUS old Catholic "barns" in Chicago had 30 stops or less over three manuals and pedals. Go and play the tubular pneumatic Austin in Sweetest Heart of Mary, or any one of a number of old organs that have survived untouched in RC churches in your area. They do what they were BUILT to do, and do it WELL. PLEASE don't settle for an enormous combo organ before you at least TALK to some of the GOOD PIPE ORGAN builders on this list who can build you a REAL church organ. Cheers, Bud T.Desiree' Hines wrote: > Well guys, this, I know. as the pipes age, they get better, and last > forever. > But, the organ in the church I am at, has pipes that have been altered, > painted, etc. Some have slightly started to sag, and the organ is > crunched into a poorly designed chamber. And im finding out that its a > 57 sause organ, mostly part of the old Weickhart at Holy Name Cathedral > in Chicago. The pipe work has not been treated with care like it should > have been. Thats what I mean. THATS why im tryign to get things going > for the better ;) (wink) > > > > From Desiree' > T. Desiree' Hines > Chicago, IL 60649 > http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html > > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mailtag_us/*http://mail.yahoo.com> - = > More reliable, more storage, less spam >
(back) Subject: RC music for lent From: <RSiegel920@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:25:50 EST check out this site: http://www.wf-f.org/paschaleSolemnitatis.htmn Hope this helps regards:) Dick Siegel P.S. "Musicam Sacram", a document implementing the Concilar Document on = the liturgy, says essentially the same thing....
(back) Subject: Holy Week From: <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:39:49 -0800 Black was the old RC color for the whole of Good Friday up until 1950; with the restoration of the rites in the RC church, purple was used for the (new) general communion of the people which replaced the (uncommunicated) Mass of the Pre-Sanctified. Black as the color for mourning entered the western rites about the same time as the Dies irae (11th century); the Black Death was sweeping Europe and they understandably thought the end of the world was at hand. Both Anglicans and Romans now use red, which, however, should be a DARK red and not the crimson "Pentecost red." The Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge (Church of England) brought out a people's edition and an altar edition in English of the revised Holy Week rites, and MOST anglo-catholic churches adopted it. I was quite startled when I first came to the west coast that anglo-catholic churches out here HADN'T ... I had never even SEEN the OLD Holy Week rites, in an Anglican OR an RC church, though I was fairly familiar with them from reading them. The Missal produced by the Cowley Fathers was the AMERICAN Missal, not the Anglican Missal. It is still in use in a few places (St. Matthew's Newport Beach CA) but it never achieved the popularity of the ANGLICAN Missal because the latter brought out a smaller people's edition. Personally, I think some of the translations in the American Missal are preferable; the chant notation of the priest's parts is CONSIDERABLY clearer, and fits the English text better. Cheers, Bud DERREINETOR@aol.com wrote: > Bud, > > I'll have to go back to my Cowley Customary and look and see if the > Gloria in Excelsis is used on Maundy Thursday. It might well be, though > the Customary was written for the Anglican Missal and not the BCP. Any > idea where the Black vestment custom came in? > Bill H. SJE, Boston.
(back) Subject: Combo Organs From: "Roy Redman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:39:08 -0600 Hey Bud, that was an excellent explanation of the facts! I am sure you = were not paid anything for that either! Right ON!! Roy Redman
(back) Subject: Re: RC music for lent From: <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:44:13 -0800 Dick, I can't get that to open ... I tried taking the "n" off the end, but it still wouldn't work. Cheers, Bud RSiegel920@aol.com wrote: > check out this site: > http://www.wf-f.org/paschaleSolemnitatis.htmn > Hope this helps > regards:) > Dick Siegel > > P.S. "Musicam Sacram", a document implementing the Concilar Document on > the liturgy, says essentially the same thing....
(back) Subject: Re: Combo Organs From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 17:45:42 -0800 Aw, shucks (shuffle, blush, grin) ... thanks, Roy! Cheers, Bud Roy Redman wrote: > Hey Bud, that was an excellent explanation of the facts! I am sure you > were not paid anything for that either! Right ON!! > Roy Redman
(back) Subject: Re: Holy Week From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:50:28 EST Bud, You're right on the Missal--actually, that was a brain f**t/typo on my = part. Now that I've given it some thought, I remember an old (former) Cowley = Father telling me that "in the 40's and 50's, we did whatever Rome did" at St. John's. That accounts for the black vestments. That black is being used = may need some re-thinking. However, it so happens that our black vestments are our = most beautiful ones (embroidered with silver floss) which means we can continue = to use them though their color is not seasonal. I believe one can use one's = "best" vestments to trump the rubrics any time (though not optimally). Thanks for the clarification, BH
(back) Subject: RE: combo organs From: "Michael David" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 19:59:43 -0600 The nameplate on the console of the old organ was Wangerin. The Johnson = was Opus 501 from 1877. The original church and Erben organ were destroyed in the fire of 1871. Wangerin rebuilt it as a III/36 in 1919 later rebuilt = by Frank Sauter and others (Elsworth). Weickhart's name doesn't appear although the company was presumably known as Wangerin-Weickhart until 1919 (Fox). Yes, there's now a Casavant in front and a large Flentrop in the back but it's still a lousy room for music. michael -----Original Message----- From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com]On Behalf Of firstname.lastname@example.org Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2004 7:25 PM To: PipeChat Subject: combo organs <snips> I thought the old organ at Holy Name was a Hook or a Johnson. Did Weickhart rebuild it at some point? If you've got Hook or Johnson pipes, KEEP 'em. And if you've got Hook or Johnson slider chests in restorable condition, they CAN be restored and new electro-pneumatic pulldowns fitted to them, if needed. <etc.>
(back) Subject: Re: 32' Additions From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 18:08:13 -0800 (PST) Hello, I think David needs to visit England/Holland, where some old pipes do actually "wear out" so to speak. a) Tin worm on many old Dutch organs b) Collapsing pipes of high lead, low antimony content.....especially those made by Annessens of Belgium. c) Plain metal reed basses collapsing near the boots d) Worn diaphonic valves e) Drooping languids Then there is the tuner I got rid of. Give him a tuning cone and he became a one man wrecking crew! However, most things can be rectified, as David knows, but the strong zinc basses, thick spotted metal and tuning slides of American organs, are not the norm on European organs prior to the start of the last century, and age can indeed take its toll. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- David Scribner <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > > Pipe work doesn't get old and worn out. It can be > old and sometimes > much better than what is currently available today. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: Re: combo organs From: "David Scribner" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:13:55 -0600 At 5:24 PM -0800 03/13/04, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote: >I thought the old organ at Holy Name was a Hook or a Johnson. Did >Weickhart rebuild it at some point? If you've got Hook or Johnson >pipes, KEEP 'em. And if you've got Hook or Johnson slider chests in >restorable condition, they CAN be restored and new electro-pneumatic >pulldowns fitted to them, if needed. i was originally a Johnson. I seem to remember that the nameplate on it when I was a student was a Wangerin nameplate. I know that the Sauter Brothers did some "renovations" of it including sticking on the "Party Horn" that as I understand was originally a Wurlitzer Brass Trumpet. And at some point it got a Reuter console. I really doubt if the original Johnson slider chests were still around by the time the organ finally removed for the new Flentrop. But the Johnson pipework should still be good and shouldn't be pitched because it is old and worn out. Roy gave an excellent example of what can be done to "refresh" older pipework. David
(back) Subject: Re: 32' Additions From: "noel jones" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:16:27 -0500 Then there is the tuner I got rid of. Give him a tuning cone and he became a one man wrecking crew! That's one advantage of being on this side of the pond...our "traditional" tuning slides have protected many a pipe from a beating. -- noel jones, aago firstname.lastname@example.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ moderator, rodgers organ users group frog music press www.frogmusic.com 423 887-7594 athens, tn, usa
(back) Subject: Old pipework From: "David Scribner" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:25:31 -0600 At 6:08 PM -0800 03/13/04, Colin Mitchell wrote: >I think David needs to visit England/Holland, where >some old pipes do actually "wear out" so to speak. Colin Actually I had in mind organs like St Sulpice with pipework going back to Clicquot. <G> But there are organs in Germany also that have ancient pipe work in them so I guess the "tin worm" etc. hasn't reached there. BTW, I don't call a pipe with a "drooping languid" worn out - all it takes is a little touch of a languid rod to put it back on speech. And we have organs here that have drooping languids Colin, due to some of the metal used in the mid part of the last century. Of course a tuner with a heavy hand on the tuning cone will wreck pipes. David
(back) Subject: Old Pipes From: "David Scribner" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:27:49 -0600 At 9:16 PM -0500 03/13/04, noel jones wrote: > That's one advantage of being on this side of the pond...our >"traditional" tuning slides have protected many a pipe from a >beating. Oh, i don't know about that - i have seen some pipes with tuning slides that have been beaten to death by heavy handed tuners. David
(back) Subject: RE: SLIGHTLY off-topic: Gloria in excelsis on Maundy Thursday From: "Glenda" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:29:15 -0600 I appreciate the answer, Bud. I was once (a couple years ago, of course) talking to a recently acquired priest about Maundy Thursday service, and when I mentioned the Gloria, he looked at me like I had sprouted two heads! So I gave up. Glenda Sutton firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Re: Old pipework From: "Jim McFarland" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:22:35 -0500 On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 20:25:31 -0600 David Scribner <firstname.lastname@example.org> writes: > But there are organs in Germany also that have ancient pipe work in > them so I guess the "tin worm" etc. hasn't reached there. Tin Worm? New one on me. Do you mean tin plague? This is a metallurgical result of exposure to cold temperatures for a long time. Jim
(back) Subject: RE: Organ use during Easter Triduum From: "Jeff White" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 22:10:03 -0600 In the churches I've played in, and they were all Lutheran (LCMS and = ELCA): Prelude, Voluntary, Postludes on Sundays during Lent. None of the above on Mid-week Wednesday night services None of the above on Maundy Thursday, and barely ANY organ on Good Friday. Postlude for Vigil of Easter. Full boat again Easter Sunday, with all ranks blaring! :) Jeff
(back) Subject: Chicago Cathedral From: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:08:31 -0500 Easily the wimpiest 117 ranks in captivity, too. Kenneth L. Sybesma Choirmaster and Organist Church of the Advent, Westbury NY Temple Organist & Director of Children's Music Temple Or Elohim, Jericho NY On 13 Mar 2004, at 8.59 PM, Michael David wrote: > there's now...a large Flentrop in the > back but it's still a lousy room for music.
(back) Subject: Tin plague From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 21:41:48 -0800 (PST) Hello, I had a quick word with my metallurgist brother about tin plague. It seems that it isn't as simple as mere cold, but has to do with impurities in old metal. Apparently, it can be prevented by the addition of antimony or bismuth to the pipe metal. I googled about a bit, and came up with an very organ related item, which I copy out as follows:- >More Info on Tin Disease An article on the Metallurgy >of Organ Pipes by David Smit, State University of New >York at Albany, sheds additional light on the causes >of =91Tin Leprosy (L=E8pre d'etain). He attributes the >breakdown of the metal to "casting on sand, impure >alloys (perhaps containing iron or silicon)" >and "This condition seems to resemble that where >pustules of corrosion form on the surface of the >[French organ] pipes and eventually corrode all the >way through the material." Elsewhere: "A little >aluminum will cause it [he may mean lead/tin alloy] >to have severe and continuing grain growth." >This supports the idea that certain alloying elements >or impurities shift the white/gray tin equilibrium to >lower temperature, thereby explaining the observation >of tin disease=92 at 20 C (whereas white tin is stable >above 13.2 C if pure). Also, silicon has the same >(diamond cubic) crystal structure as gray tin, >supporting seeding=92 as a contributing factor (in >addition to the mechanical effect of a free surface >allowing the volumetric expansion). -o-o-o-o-o-o-o- Apparently, the old belief was that tin pest or plague, was the work of the devil! Tin Worm is apparently something very different......my mistake. It is a red bug which poisons things which eat it! BTW, at certain low temperatures, the decay to powder tin is very rapid; hence the destruction of the tin buttons on the uniforms of Napoleon's army. However, at very low temperatures, the process stops for some strange reason. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- Jim McFarland <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > Tin Worm? > New one on me. > Do you mean tin plague? > This is a metallurgical result of exposure to cold > temperatures for a > long time. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: old pipes From: "black" <email@example.com> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 01:35:36 -0600 List, I have 98 year old Estey pipes and the leather on the mouths of = the 8' diapason are still good as is the other pipe work. I think I = shall keep them. Gary