PipeChat Digest #4471 - Saturday, May 1, 2004
 
Gottfried help
  by <Seedlac@aol.com>
Re: Aaaaalrighty then...lets have come round table discussion
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Aaaaalrighty then...lets have come round table discussion
  by "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Re: electronic substitutes (kinda long)
  by "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net>
Re: Aaaaalrighty then...lets have come round table discussion
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
pipe vs. electronic (AGAIN)
  by "Richard Hazelip" <rhazelip1@yahoo.com>
Developing a relationship with service technician
  by "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net>
organ in Chicago
  by "black" <gblack@ocslink.com>
Re: electronic substitutes (kinda long)
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: electronic substitutes (kinda long)
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: electronic substitutes (kinda long)
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Developing a relationship with service technician
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: Aaaaalrighty then...lets have come round table discussion
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Re: Shady Pipe Organ Folks
  by <Hell-Concerts@t-online.de>
Getting more bizarre...One builder even said he does not think his voicer
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: electronic substitutes  (kinda short!)
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
A Message for Desiree
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Desiree's desire for a new organ
  by "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com>
organists & organ tech
  by <Seedlac@aol.com>
Re: electronic substitutes (kinda long)
  by <Steskinner@aol.com>
Re: Desiree's desire for a new organ
  by <Icedad@aol.com>
 

(back) Subject: Gottfried help From: <Seedlac@aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 07:14:28 EDT   A request for advice form anyone out there who has worked on Gottfried chests. Next week I will be doing some repairs on a 1930 Gottfried that has a = problem with ciphers. The chests are both unit and some sort of vental or pitman. = The ciphering problem is on indivudual notes not all pipe of one note, so I assume the problem is not a primary. Also the problem seems to be = spreading. As the organ is slated for removal, in the next year, previous solution has been = to pull the offending pipes. since the problem continues ot grow with = different pipes pulling pipes will son result in a mute organ. Any thoughts? My = first thought is the the chest magnets are the type used by Midmer-Losh, where = the armature is hinged with a tiny piece of leather. When the leather rots and = tears the armature shifts position and a cipher results. As a giant Reisner relay was parked in the chamber door, I will look there =   first. Due to the impossible installation, I would likw to have as much = information in hand before I wedge myself under a chest. Thanks Steve Baltimore  
(back) Subject: Re: Aaaaalrighty then...lets have come round table discussion From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 05:32:48 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   This is one of those "discussions" isn't it?   A sort of, "I like my Ferrari, but I'd love to play with your Pontiac."   However, almost passing the post by, I then realised something remarkable.   So here is my response:-   I play an eleven speaking stop neo-baroque instrument voiced in Dutch style.   The room has one of the most perfect acoustics imaginable, with 3 secs of clean reverberation.   I like everything about the organ and would change nothing.   Astonishingly, I have, in addition to the usual baroque repertoire, played big romantic works such as Reubke, Liszt and Reger on this instrument in concert. It has also worked very well.   I absolutely adore this instrument, and would sleep with it but for the fact that it would be unwise and misunderstood.   If it went caput tomorrow, I would want to replace it with an identical instrument or throw myself off a cliff.   -o-o-o-o-o-o-o   Now about the 300 rank, 750 stop monster Desiree has ambitious plans for............   Does she really NEED such a big instrument?   I mean, living as I do in the BIGGEST TRADING BLOCK IN THE WORLD (I just HAD to get that in!!!!!!).....we tend to think more economically.   Long live the EU.....whatever it is!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell (EU)       --- "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> wrote: > What kinds of organs do you all play? > What types of rooms are they in? > What do you not like about the organ? what would you > change? > If you are a builder, how much organ would I get > from you for 200K? > What kind of repertoire do you do for church? > Are you absolutely in love with this insrtument? > If is goes caput tomorrow, what would you replace it > with if you had 200K?       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover  
(back) Subject: Re: Aaaaalrighty then...lets have come round table discussion From: "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 05:56:11 -0700 (PDT)   In my opinion, the best organ is 20-50 stops. Anything bigger, and you = are just repeating stops in all the divisions. How many open Diapasons do = you really need? If it is a cheap organ, you probably need three to sound = like one. In Chicago, Crystal Lake, I think, there is a beautiful Wolff organ. Full = Principal chorus, beautiful flutes, and two very beautiful reeds on the = manuals. This is exactly what I would want in my church, maybe add a 16' = flue on the great and a 16' reed on the swell. The instrument has a great = singing quality and almost overfilled this room, yet the organ was gently = voiced. Just my thoughts         Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St Champaign, IL 61820 217-390-0158 www.scottmontgomerymusic.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs  
(back) Subject: Re: electronic substitutes (kinda long) From: "James Grebe" <pianoman@accessus.net> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 08:01:20 -0500   There's the cruxt of the matter, 'It only has to come close and be = cheaper." The same thing is true on digital pianos but you do not hear = piano tuners harping away at this. In some instances they do fit the = bill better because of room, cost, and versatility. I tell my clients = that we will know when the digital pianos are arrived when they will be = used in the concert halls in place of a Steinway "D". James Grebe Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair Artisan of Wood WWW.JamesGrebe.com 1526 Raspberry Lane Arnold, MO 63010 pianoman@accessus.net ----- Original Message -----=20 From: T.Desiree' Hines=20 To: PipeChat=20 Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 8:31 PM Subject: Re: electronic substitutes (kinda long)     Well said! And for me and my church...I know what im doing! We are going to work = towards a digital instrument, with later pipe augmentation.=20   1. The room is very wide and long yet shallow. The only space for = pipes is in the rear gallery. If we had about 30 more feet of height = we'd be perfect. 2. The Archbishop of Chicago is whip craking at churhes to move the = choir and organ to the floor level with the people.=20 3. There church's archetchitecture will not support a pipe organ of = the size needed to fill the room. I had someone else play last night on = full organ, and the sound is not sufficient it circulates in the back. = Both companies that have come so far say that we need at least 3 manuals = and the equal of 50-55 ranks. One even measured the sound and said an = antiphonal woudl be nice.=20 4. I'd rathere spend 150K on a digital/pipe that will fill the room = than a 20 stop all pipe on blasting wind pressure to fill the room for = 350K   Desiree'     -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs  
(back) Subject: Re: Aaaaalrighty then...lets have come round table discussion From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 06:04:54 -0700 (PDT)   Very true here! I agree...a great only needs one strong Principal 8, and possibly put one = on the other manuals as well...so they will balance. But a well voice = great principal will not neet the help of the great Gambe and Rorhflute I have noticed that Wolff gently voices his organs. They are beautiful = instruments         From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs  
(back) Subject: pipe vs. electronic (AGAIN) From: "Richard Hazelip" <rhazelip1@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 06:16:36 -0700 (PDT)   It has been said by a recent poster: >>I think everyone who seeks out electronic instruments have no idea what = a good organ is.>> You had best re-think posting that kind of global assumption! I don't = "seek out" electronic instruments to play, neither to I have no idea what = a good organ is. I resent your implication. I have two degrees in organ = performance and soon will complete my terminal degree if it does not = terminate me first. I have heard and played many very fine instruments = and have fairly strong opinions on the ones I like, the ones I don't like, = and the reasons for those opinions. My church has recently spent damn = near a million dollars on a new educational wing because it was = desperately needed. There will be no money for a pipe organ (even if my = priest and desperately want one) until this debt is retired. I don't play = electronic organs because they are my preference. I play them because = that is what is in place at this current time! I also just happen to = believe that my paycheck depends on doing everything well, not just = carping about the organ or about the inability of the church to upgrade into a pipe organ. RIchard Hazelip    
(back) Subject: Developing a relationship with service technician From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 09:23:54 -0400   Hi, listers, sorry if this is long.....   Am moving to a new job in July... a captivating three manual 1991 Schantz. Very thoughtfully designed and executed, IMHO.   Some negative asides have been overheard about the church's relationship with a service technician (I didn't even ask a name, so I couldn't tell you.) This caused me to think about the need to develop good relations right off the bat. But how does one do that? I have to say, I've rarely been the main organist. Mostly I've been a choir director working with an organist who I pretty much assume will monitor the organ.   The asides involved: 1) The last two organists quote "barely got along" with the technician. 2) two 16' pedal pipes which were removed from the premises three months ago and still have not been returned to the organ (I've never seen this happen in 34 years of playing...) 3) a great Trumpet which is "always unusable" because it is so far out of tune with the rest of the organ. Same for a choir mixture.   It's hard for me to separate out issues such as: building temperature. There is a $1 million instrument near me now which is installed in three different locations, the Chancel, the East Gallery tower, the West Gallery tower. It literally is true that major parts of this gorgeous instrument are never "useable" unless you want to hear a giant celeste or reeds that are just "that much" off to make your skin crawl. The organist at the time of the installation just shrugged and said "That's reality. When the sun hits the East Gallery in the morning, it goes out. West Gallery in the afternoon." If it were me, I'd want to be buddies with the technicians so he could show me how to climb up in those towers and tweak that Vox Humana. On the other hand, maybe I have no business up there. Maybe HE even hates getting up in there.   Issues such as: personalities of organists. My first associate routinely crawled up there and made me hold keys so he could tweak the reeds on the Saturday before Easter. Other organists are more like "Heck, I'm not going up there, call someone." They regard the organ in the same way as I look at my computer. I know how to use it only IF IT'S WORKING PROPERLY. I'd like to be a little more hands-on, unless that is unworkable or inappropriate. I think that Great Trumpet just needs to be baby'd, is all.. I'm clueless about tuning the choir mixture myself, I wouldn't even start.   Issues such as: personalities of technicians. Our present one crabs at me about everything that's wrong with the installation, the aging, the church finances, etc. But I can tell he really cares and he's extremely knowledgeable. He will on one day flatly refuse to consider patching something as "Too much work to be worth it, that all needs to be ripped out." On the next day, if I say "You are the ONLY one I can turn to to help me with this", he'll say "I'll do what I can." And then he does remarkable things. So, it's clearly about understanding, communication, and relationship.   How do I decide what course to take? And how not to make a mis-step!   Thanks,   Chuck Peery Cincinnati                
(back) Subject: organ in Chicago From: "black" <gblack@ocslink.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 08:11:49 -0500   HI to Desiree and all who live in Chicago. I would like your opinions of = the organ rebuild at St. Ita's on Broadway; just curious. Thanks, Gary      
(back) Subject: Re: electronic substitutes (kinda long) From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 10:02:04 EDT   In a message dated 4/30/2004 11:48:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, Steskinner@aol.com writes:   > Then, IMO, you would be doing the wrong thing. Nothing bad about a = limited > tonal palette you never get tired of, like an 7-8 rank principal chorus, = and > a swell division with 2 strings and reeds. One generous 16' Bourdon, and =   > you've got a marvelous, tho limited, instrument that will accompany (and = perhaps > thrill) any congregation for years. >   amnd bore the player in 6 months........no thanks.   dale in florida    
(back) Subject: Re: electronic substitutes (kinda long) From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 10:03:29 EDT   In a message dated 5/1/2004 1:10:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, montre1978@yahoo.com writes:   > play on a Galanti instrument at my church. The instrument is 3 manual, > 50-some stops. I would rather have a 5 stop pipe organ than to use this =   > instrument. I am currently seeking builders to build a nice 2 manual, = 20-28 stop > instrument. I have a small gallery and 4 seconds of acoustic.   if it is well "voiced" that Galanti should sound just fine in there.....   is there a problem with the organ?   dale in FLorida    
(back) Subject: Re: electronic substitutes (kinda long) From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 10:05:40 EDT   In a message dated 5/1/2004 9:02:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, pianoman@accessus.net writes:   > tell my clients that we will know when the digital pianos are arrived = when > they will be used   Have you heard General Music's Pro Mega 3?   just got one to repalce my church's acoustic because it has something = called physical modeling and sounds like a Steinway 9', a Fazioli 10' and more = than enough other stuff to satisfy the happy clappy Jesus music people.   dale in florida    
(back) Subject: Re: Developing a relationship with service technician From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 09:16:12 -0500     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 8:23 AM Subject: Developing a relationship with service technician     2) two 16' pedal pipes which were removed > from the premises three months ago and still have not been returned to > the organ (I've never seen this happen in 34 years of playing...)   In all probability these were made of zinc. Modern electrolytically produced zinc contains few impurities and is therefore softer than the = zinc found in older organs. It is frequently the case these days that languids sag, reed resonators wilt, and other problems befall the pipes. The two pipes were presumably removed to correct such a problem. Did the = technician who removed it give any indication of when it would be returned? Most organs are serviced twice a year, and it could be that the technician was intending to return them at his next visit in six months, rather than = making a special trip, which would probably have to be charged to the church in addition to their normal visits.   3) > a great Trumpet which is "always unusable" because it is so far out of > tune with the rest of the organ. Same for a choir mixture.   To understand what is going on here it would be necessary to have a great deal more information. I have a couple of suggestions. Since the rest of the organ apart from these two stops seems to stay pretty well in tune, it may have something to do with the placement of these particular stops in = the organ. The Great Trumpet might, for example, have been placed on a = separate chest above or below the level of the rest of the Great pipework, and in this case temperature stratification in the organ chamber might at times lead to a serious temperature difference between it and the rest of the Great, with consequent out-of-tuneness. This would be unlikely to be the case with the Choir Mixture, however. Here, though, if the pipework is closely placed there might be some drawing taking place. You should ask = the technician to examine these possibilities. One thing that often helps is = to try to tune the organ in the spring or fall at a time when the temperature is moderate and neither heating nor airconditioning is required, so that = the temperature of the church is 70 degrees without the heat or air running. This tends to get the pipework into a kind of "average" state, so that = when the temperature of parts of the organ does change it is not going to go so far out of tune.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: Re: Aaaaalrighty then...lets have come round table discussion From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 10:27:27 -0400   On 5/1/04 12:20 AM, "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> wrote:   > What kinds of organs do you all play? >=20 > Walcker tracker, II/23, 1990 >=20 > What types of rooms are they in? >=20 > Small but =B3live.=B2 Seats 300 or so. But not often enough. >=20 > What do you not like about the organ? what would you change? >=20 > Add a bassoon. >=20 > If you are a builder, how much organ would I get from you for 200K? > What kind of repertoire do you do for church? >=20 > The works (ELCA traditional but very broad-tasted). >=20 > Are you absolutely in love with this insrtument? >=20 > Well . . . yeah. (I=B9m just not very emotional.) >=20 > If is goes caput tomorrow, what would you replace it with if you had 200K= ? >=20 > Oh, unquestionably. >=20 > See it at www.stlukesnyc.org >=20 > Alan > =20 >=20      
(back) Subject: Re: Re: Shady Pipe Organ Folks From: <Hell-Concerts@t-online.de> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 16:28:43 +0200     WOW! Quite short fused, think. And not too wise to write such things these days.   On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 14:14:07 +0200 Subject: Re: Shady Pipe Organ Folks From: "Malcolm Wechsler" <manderusa@earthlink.net> wrote:   "The guy who took that church to the cleaners really needs to be hung up to dry somewhere public".      
(back) Subject: Getting more bizarre...One builder even said he does not think his voicers in Europe could do anything with the pipes. From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 10:28:51 EDT   From the latest missive: "One builder even said he does not think his voicers in Europe could = do anything with the pipes." If you're worried about money, why deal with the costs of bringing = over a European builder, especially with the complete destruction of the Dollar = over the past three years? Why not deal with an organbuilder who voices and tonally finishes the organs himself? On site? And if the church is as structurally unstable as your organbuilders = (who are apparently civil engineers as well) claim it is, shouldn't the = building be condemned, and razed, and your parish merge with another? Why do you insist that there is only one source of vintage pipe organs = on the planet? There are many fine organbuilders with appropriately scaled = and designed instruments in storage, who can get these instruments to you at = fair and reasonable prices. Are you not doing your homework, or are you ignoring the facts that = you actually know? So far, we've heard about two builders who claim the church =   cannot hold more than twenty ranks without collapsing, yet still want to = build a 55 rank organ for you, as long as their voicers, in Europe, can start with =   fresh pipework, even though you're going to get a vintage instrument from = a dealer, except you're actually going to get a combination organ, that is, = an electronic prepared for pipes... I have a headache!   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City ..  
(back) Subject: Re: electronic substitutes (kinda short!) From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 22:48:36 +0800   Hey ! You want a 7-8 rank principal chorus, swell division with two = strings ( and presumably the flutes to make some sort of balance)?? Say, = how much do you intend to pay for this instrument? At least 12 ranks? = That costs BIG. You are comparing with an Ahlborn-Galanti which costs = less than $50 000 in my country Fair go, mate!=20   I have an A-G single manual (model H6) which sounds very good indeed. A = pipe organ would sound better but this instrument cost just over $3000 = and fits in my lounge room. Not much logic in a lot of the slinging off = at electronic organs. Some of you are making comparisons between a pipe = organ costing upwards of three quarters of a million dollars, and a = very good electronic instrument costing at most $100 000. Nothing = logical about that. As I said further up the page FAIR GO, MATE! Your = bias is showing! Bob Elms. Subject: Re: electronic substitutes (kinda long)     In a message dated 4/30/2004 11:48:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, = Steskinner@aol.com writes:     Then, IMO, you would be doing the wrong thing. Nothing bad about a = limited tonal palette you never get tired of, like an 7-8 rank principal = chorus, and a swell division with 2 strings and reeds. One generous 16' = Bourdon, and you've got a marvelous, tho limited, instrument that will = accompany (and perhaps thrill) any congregation for years.=20    
(back) Subject: A Message for Desiree From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 10:08:19 -0500   Tell ya' what, Desiree.......when I win the lottery, I'll buy St. Turibius = a pipe organ by the reputable builder of your choice (or a renovated "oldy = but goody" from Organ Clearinghouse) AND an elevator to the gallery.   Well, except I get first dibs on the 4 manual Kimball and the Farnam Casavant they are listing!   I suppose it would increase my chances of winning if I bought a ticket = (but statistically it doesn't help much!).   Alas, if I were wealthy, I think I'd be the next "Carnegie" of pipe = organs!   Dennis Steckley & A Six-Pack of Cats    
(back) Subject: Desiree's desire for a new organ From: "David Baker" <dbaker@lawyers.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 11:45:17 -0400   May I suggest that you look into Rieger-Kloss organs? It is a Czech company, but their US representative is not far from you. The web site is www.rieger-kloss.com. When I was doing organ maintenance full time, I took care of one of their organs in White Plains, NY. It was a fine instrument. I no longer have any connection with them, but I still think they give good value for the price.   David Baker    
(back) Subject: organists & organ tech From: <Seedlac@aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 12:01:16 EDT   The recent thread concerning unethical behavior by an organ repair person. =   This is a good topic to discuss. As one on the service-repair side of the equation, I have always been perplexed by the mythical status placed upon = an organ builders and service-repair firms. I have found that few organists view = their organ technician as colleagues. Some elevate the word of the technician to =   gospel and others as tradesmen who are not very artistic or educated. = Good or bad reputations seem to have their own momentum. When questioned about the opinion, I have found most musicians have no direct experience, but base = it on gossip or the grapevine. Few if any churches make the effort to inspect or = check around with other work the prospective company has executed. In another arena local AGO-OHS-TAOS chapters make little or no effort = involve the local organ companies in their activities. Personalities and personal prejudices seem to interfere with the ability to be inclusive.   Just my observations   Steve  
(back) Subject: Re: electronic substitutes (kinda long) From: <Steskinner@aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 12:01:43 EDT   In a message dated 5/1/2004 10:02:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, Keys4bach@aol.com writes: Steskinner@aol.com writes:     Then, IMO, you would be doing the wrong thing. Nothing bad about a = limited tonal palette you never get tired of, like an 7-8 rank principal chorus, = and a swell division with 2 strings and reeds. One generous 16' Bourdon, and = you've got a marvelous, tho limited, instrument that will accompany (and perhaps thrill) any congregation for years.       amnd bore the player in 6 months........no thanks.   dale in florida Yes, indeed. That would be a boring player. No fault of the organ.     Steven Skinner Minister of Music First Presbyterian Church of the Covenant Erie, PA    
(back) Subject: Re: Desiree's desire for a new organ From: <Icedad@aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 12:30:05 EDT   David,   I agree with you that Rieger-Kloss builds great pipes. The = workmanship is exceptional. We were going with Ruffatti/Rodgers until we heard Rieger-Kloss pipework. There was a sparkle and clarity to the pipes. Also, = we got more pipe for our money!! LOL We had Rieger-Kloss build our pipework for our pipe/digital installation. = We have: Principal 16',Principal 8', Octave 4', Super Octave 2', Mixture III, =   Flute Harmonique 8', Flute Octavin 4', Flute Octaviante 2'.Processional = Trumpet 8'. All are FULL 61 note ranks. It is mated to an Allen Renaissance 80 = stop digital. The sound is outstanding. Has been performed on by Diane Bish, = Carlo Curley, Steven Frank, plus many local artists. The installation has = received outstanding reviews.   Sincerely,   Daniel Weimer Port Orange, Florida