PipeChat Digest #4521 - Wednesday, May 26, 2004
 
RE: studio privileges
  by "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca>
Re: studio privileges
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: studio privileges
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
studio privileges
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: studio privileges
  by "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net>
Re: An interesting experience......
  by "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net>
Re: WAS: Music from Frog Music press Now Virtual Pipes
  by "Richard Huggins" <huggins88@yahoo.com>
Re: studio privileges
  by "Christopher Howerter" <OrgelspielerKMD@msn.com>
Re: studio privileges
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: WAS: Music from Frog Music press Now Virtual Pipes
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Re: studio privileges
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: An interesting experience......
  by "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net>
Re: studio privileges
  by "brade" <beveland@millsauto.com>
Re: An interesting experience......
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: studio privileges
  by "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net>
RE: studio privileges
  by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu>
 

(back) Subject: RE: studio privileges From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:21:26 -0400   This is an amateur opinion but I think it might help. Where I live (Ontario, Canada) an employer cannot unilaterally change the conditions of employment without the possibility of being exposed to financial penalty. If you quit because they won't let you use the piano = and organ for lessons and subsequent additional income when there is an established record of them allowing you to do so in the past, they <could> be found guilty of something called "constructive dismissal" and you would be eligible for the same payout and benefits if they had dismissed or = fired you.   I wouldn't suggest quitting if you're otherwise happy with your job, but = you (or preferably someone else) may wish to delicately remind your employer = of this portion of the labour law that I'm assuming applies in your jurisdiction. In Canada one can find access to almost all government agencies in the "blue pages" portion of the telephone book.   Remember: This is an amateur opinion from someone who lives (I think) in a different jurisdiction than you.   Andrew Mead   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Richard Hazelip Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:56 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: studio privileges   Greetings all:   For those of you serving churches (part-time or full-time), I have the following question:   Are you allowed studio privileges as part of your church employment? = Please comment.   I am once again having to convince my pastor that I should be allowed to = use the church's piano and organ for private lessons. This was allowed last year, although I had only one organ student and a brief voice lesson or = two. All of a sudden, this year the issue has to be revisited. I am whining a little, since I desperately need the money during the summer when I have = no college income, and my pastor seems at time to suffer from convenient amnesia. In my 30+ years of church experience, this is the first time I = have ever had to defend my access to studio privileges.   Thanks in advance!   Richard Hazelip    
(back) Subject: Re: studio privileges From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:14:14 +0800   There are two of us organists playing at my church I am also Director of = the Choir. We have absolute authority over the organ and piano and can = please ourselves whether we have pupils. Neither of us have any at = present but I have had several in the past No problem. Bob Elms. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Richard Hazelip=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:56 PM Subject: studio privileges     Greetings all:   For those of you serving churches (part-time or full-time), I have the = following question:   Are you allowed studio privileges as part of your church employment? = Please comment.      
(back) Subject: Re: studio privileges From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 07:23:16 -0700   I hope the same church doesn't have the gall to go to the Guild and/or local organ teachers when they need an organist.   Bud   jch wrote:   > I am not the organist, but I can comment that our church has a strict > policy that the musical instruments in the sanctuary are only to be used =   > for worship related music. I know our organist would like to give > lessons on the organ, but is prohibited from doing so and I suspect that =   > it is probably addressed in his contract. I would like to have access to =   > the organ, but since I do not play well enough to be able to sub, I will =   > not get the opportunity and will have to be satisfied with the Conn at > home. > > Jon > > > At 08:23 AM 5/26/04, you wrote: > >> I've always had them. I can't understand why you wouldn't be allowed >> to give lessons. What is his reasoning for not wanting to allow it? >> Where else are people going to learn to play the organ, not many of us >> have them in our living rooms to give lessons on. >> >> Travis >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <mailto:rhazelip1@yahoo.com>Richard Hazelip >> To: <mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org>pipechat@pipechat.org >> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 7:56 AM >> Subject: studio privileges >> >> Greetings all: >> >> For those of you serving churches (part-time or full-time), I have the >> following question: >> >> Are you allowed studio privileges as part of your church employment? >> Please comment. >> >> I am once again having to convince my pastor that I should be allowed >> to use the church's piano and organ for private lessons. This was >> allowed last year, although I had only one organ student and a brief >> voice lesson or two. All of a sudden, this year the issue has to be >> revisited. I am whining a little, since I desperately need the money >> during the summer when I have no college income, and my pastor seems >> at time to suffer from convenient amnesia. In my 30+ years of church >> experience, this is the first time I have ever had to defend my access >> to studio privileges. >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> Richard Hazelip > > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: studio privileges From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:27:55 -0500   jch wrote: > . . . our church has a strict policy that the musical instruments in > = the sanctuary are only to be used for worship related music. I know > > = our organist would like to give lessons on the organ, but is > prohibited = from doing so and I suspect that it is probably addressed > in his = contract.   A little "pruning" of the excess previous verbiage in this post would have been nice. . .   Having said that, I also have to say that's a pretty harsh policy!   I wonder what kind of collective wisdom concocted THAT? How do people who effect such things expect the next generation of organists to be trained = if teaching privileges or use of Sanctuary instruments for other than worship services are denied? I can see where they wouldn't want to have rock = music (although, it's not very much of a stretch between THAT and some of the = CCM stuff I've heard -only the words are changed to protect the guilty!)   Perhaps it would be a good "mission" to for you to start a campaign with the appropriate people in your church by having them consider the ramifications of such a boorish policy and then to have it revisited.   Who knows? Perhaps the next generation of organists will thank you!   Faithfully,   G.A.   -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO <>< Schneider Pipe Organs, Inc. 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (877) 944-2454 TOLL-FREE (217) 944-2527 FAX arpschneider@starband.net Home Office EMAIL arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com URL ADDRESS  
(back) Subject: Re: studio privileges From: "Shirley" <pnst.shirley@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:34:04 -0400   At Trinity, Lansdale, there are several of us who have "practice = privileges". While access is controlled, it is by no means limited. Both of our full-time = music people have teaching privileges on the organ as well as the grand pianos (as does = the wife of one of the pastors and one outside voice teacher).   Also, an "organ scholarship" program is offered each year for one lucky = person to take free lessons from the DoM or the Associate DoM. A few teenagers and = a couple of adults have been awarded the opportunity in this 5-year-old = program, and one of them is headed to be a church-music major in a year after he graduates high school.   I think the secret is "controlled access". The sanctuary must be free, = and only a handful of people know where the key to the console is kept, or where the = circuit breaker is. An "open policy" can (and should) still be controlled.   I am appalled at the strict closed-door policies of some church musicians, = that no one but them is allowed to even touch the precious instrument. Power trip = elitism at its worst.   --Shirley      
(back) Subject: Re: An interesting experience...... From: "Richard Schneider" <arpschneider@starband.net> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:46:48 -0500   John Vanderlee wrote:   > I think this is one of the reasons now that the electrical code > requires separate runs that are fused individually. i think it is 6 > Amp per branch? size of the wire plays a role in this...   Article 650.7 states that circuits shall be so arranged that #26 AWG and #28 AWG wires are protected by an overcurrent device rated at not more = than 6 amperes. The returns from windchests, according to Article 6450.5A = shall not be less than #14 AWG. > I believe the NEC actually has a section on the wiring of organs.   It does. Article 650. Certain sections of other articles apply as well, such as Article 640, which covers Audio signal, processing, amplification and reproduction equipment (which is what electronic organs is covered under); Article 645, covering Information Technology Equipment (in the = case of computers being used in pipe organs and Article 647 for sensitive electronic equipment.   Anyone wiring pipe organs should obtain a copy of this article and FOLLOW it! I'll spare the list of my diatribe concerning all of the awful organ wiring I've encountered and replaced over the years.   My company website has much useful information regarding organ wiring if you'd care to check it out.   Faithfully,   G.A.   -- Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO <>< Schneider Pipe Organs, Inc. 41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 Kenney, IL 61749-0137 (217) 944-2454 VOX (877) 944-2454 TOLL-FREE (217) 944-2527 FAX arpschneider@starband.net Home Office EMAIL arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com URL ADDRESS  
(back) Subject: Re: WAS: Music from Frog Music press Now Virtual Pipes From: "Richard Huggins" <huggins88@yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 09:46:38 -0500   > From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>   >[snip] > This hauptwerk program is starting to take off. A new release is coming > out shortly, if it hasn't already. My guess is that it is going to = start > hurting the manufacturers of electronic organs.   Respectfully I can't agree with the notion that manufacturers of = electronic organs could be threatend by this. The only possible way they could be = would be if someone offered an actual Hauptwerk console (for example) and placed inside it the memory and processing power capable of playing back any nuumber of stops at any time with all 10 fingers and both feet holding = down notes, *AND* the superior audio system to do it. Allen and Rodgers installations use multi-channel, highly-tailored organ audio systems (99% = of the time superior to the auditorium system) that are wonderfully full and rich; such is required to get the most out of any sampled sound.   Even so, what organ would be chosen? And if the answer is that the buyer would choose whatever organ he wanted to have, wouldn't that be merely a variation on digital organs already available, other than the greater sampling rate? And if you pointed out that perhaps multiple "organs" (via loadable DVDs, for example) could be available for purchase, some sort of provision for electronically changing the drawknob names (imagine a = drawknob with LED readout...hmmm) and accounting for different divisions or manuals would have to be possible.   Or so it seems to me!   --Richard          
(back) Subject: Re: studio privileges From: "Christopher Howerter" <OrgelspielerKMD@msn.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:04:54 -0400   Dear Richard,   What you should do, which was recommended to me by my teacher, is to = have it written in the contract that you are able to use the instruments = for lessons, teaching, practice, etc (as I too had trouble at my = previous church on that issue). The pastor said the instruments should = only be for worship and that if practicing repertoire on the instrument = would not improve service playing, then it shouldn't be done there. = Now, mind you that would never be the case, however I am simply making a = point that pastors can be such silly things! Read the book an Bach, = this has been going on for centuries! <g> Not to digress, but please = make sure to be very specific in the contract. This way, the issue will = never be an issue because it's in black and white. However, from what I = understand you are already in this position. You know far more about = your standing than I do, however when it comes time to revise your = contract, which should happen yearly, make sure a clause like the = following is put in if you can manage to get them to agree to this = somehow:   1. Organist will be able to use Church instruments for personal practice = at his convenience. 2. Organist will be able to utilize church instruments for private music = lessons per his schedule.   These were not originally in my contract, however I requested that they = be put in, and sure enough they were. Now, if they make a fuss about = it, there will be no issue except if they deny me that, then they are = breaking the contract. Then remuneration is in order! :) However, I = don't foresee this happening as they are a lovely bunch of people. = However, it is always better to be safe than sorry!!!   Best Regards, Christopher J. Howerter, SPC ------------------------ Subject: studio privileges From: "Richard Hazelip" = <rhazelip1@yahoo.com<mailto:rhazelip1@yahoo.com>> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 05:56:05 -0700 (PDT)   Greetings all: =20 For those of you serving churches (part-time or full-time), I have the = following question: =20 Are you allowed studio privileges as part of your church employment? = Please comment. =20 I am once again having to convince my pastor that I should be allowed to = use the church's piano and organ for private lessons. This was allowed = last year, although I had only one organ student and a brief voice = lesson or two. All of a sudden, this year the issue has to be = revisited. I am whining a little, since I desperately need the money = during the summer when I have no college income, and my pastor seems at = time to suffer from convenient amnesia. In my 30+ years of church = experience, this is the first time I have ever had to defend my access = to studio privileges. =20 Thanks in advance! =20 Richard Hazelip      
(back) Subject: Re: studio privileges From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:06:04 -0700   My mother's Methodist church had the only pipe organ in town ... the lady dragon who played it guarded the key like Frodo's Ring (grin). When she went on vacation, the key went with her, and they played the piano. She refused to give lessons, or allow anyone else teaching privileges.   I played the pump organ in the Sunday School assembly room, but I was never allowed to touch the pipe organ.   A new pastor came; dragon-lady went on vacation; he took a bolt-cutter to the lock, turned on the blower, and said, "YOU'RE playing for church next Sunday!" I think I was nine or ten at the time ... I could barely reach the pedals. It was summer, so I wasn't playing at St. Luke's ... they had Low Mass during the hottest months.   She came back to a new lock and multiple keys. She had a yippin' s**t-fit, but she got over it. Years later, I played the organ for her grand-niece's wedding.   I never had to pay for practice time in high school because I subbed for evening services for nothing in the churches where I practiced ... prelude, offertory, postlude, and three hymns ... no big deal. By then I was at St. David's on Sunday mornings, and it was a good half-hour drive each way to go up there to practice, so I practiced in local churches.   Churches are cutting their own throats when they don't allow teaching and practice privileges. Organists don't grow on trees; it's time they learned that.   Bud                  
(back) Subject: Re: WAS: Music from Frog Music press Now Virtual Pipes From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:10:59 -0400   At 09:46 AM 2004-05-26 -0500, you wrote: > > From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> > > >[snip] > > This hauptwerk program is starting to take off. A new release is = coming > > out shortly, if it hasn't already. My guess is that it is going to = start > > hurting the manufacturers of electronic organs. > >Respectfully I can't agree with the notion that manufacturers of = electronic >organs could be threatend by this. The only possible way they could be = would >be if someone offered an actual Hauptwerk console (for example) and = placed >inside it the memory and processing power capable of playing back any >nuumber of stops at any time with all 10 fingers and both feet holding = down >notes, *AND* the superior audio system to do it. Allen and Rodgers >installations use multi-channel, highly-tailored organ audio systems (99% = of >the time superior to the auditorium system) that are wonderfully full and >rich; such is required to get the most out of any sampled sound. > >Even so, what organ would be chosen? And if the answer is that the buyer >would choose whatever organ he wanted to have, wouldn't that be merely a >variation on digital organs already available, other than the greater >sampling rate? And if you pointed out that perhaps multiple "organs" (via >loadable DVDs, for example) could be available for purchase, some sort of >provision for electronically changing the drawknob names (imagine a = drawknob >with LED readout...hmmm) and accounting for different divisions or = manuals >would have to be possible. > >Or so it seems to me! > >--Richard   Richard,   The electronic organ business being essentially a low volume business, anything that causes sales decreases hurts the bottom line. Believe me Allen, Rodgers, and everybody else are very aware of these new programs = for make your own organs.   I will agree that in general churches will not go to the roll-your-own = type organs, but there are an increasing number of home hobbyist types, who loath to spend money on entry level organs, that sound inferior to a well setup hauptwerk organ. And if that means 10 to 20 fewer organ sales per month, even in a market the size of North America, that is a sizeable income lost to the manufacturers.   Also, I believe hauptwerk and similar programs, help depress the used = organ market, which in turn puts pressure on prices of new organs.   If anybody is familiar with the state of the organbuilding business, they know it is not a pretty sight. Very few outfits are really profitable these days.   Arie V.   Arie V.   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arie Vandenberg Classic Organbuilders ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com Tel.: 905-475-1263      
(back) Subject: Re: studio privileges From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:27:51 EDT   In a message dated 5/26/2004 11:07:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, quilisma@cox.net writes:   > Churches are cutting their own throats when they don't allow teaching > and practice privileges   AND when they lock it so people cant look touch and see.   dale in Florida    
(back) Subject: Re: An interesting experience...... From: "noel jones" <gedeckt@usit.net> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:31:42 -0400   Monty,   The quality of any organ depends on how it is set up and voiced to the building. now when I read:   "We have had a decent 3 manual digital from a large company in the Pacific Northwest with plenty of speakers and two subwoofers. It was voiced by one of their managers and was plenty loud enough for the room, and, if anything I felt it to be too loud by itself, but it was fine when 1100+ in the congregation and a good 80+ in the choir were singing. We have speakers all over the front of the church, so sound is evenly spread, and truthfully, it sounds pretty good. I am just amazed when people from the congregation come up and make statements to me like that out of the blue. I really had no idea that "ordinary" people would be able to tell the difference or even care enough to ask me when the pipe organ would be back playing. It's happened weekly that people have made these comments to me. If everything gets finished up, the pipe organ will be back up and running for this Sunday."   This tells me that you had a Rodgers on loan from the company that is selling you the Ruffatti and Musicom Digital Organ.   If I were selling you THAT combination and loaning you a RODGERS to be used while your current pipe organ is in failure mode, an instrument tnat needs replaced anyhow, I wonder how I would voice a Rodgers?   noel jones www.frogmusic.com        
(back) Subject: Re: studio privileges From: "brade" <beveland@millsauto.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 10:52:53 -0500   I was to play for a wedding in Minneapolis several years ago for a friend. The wedding had all been arranged with the bride, groom and church. The organ was to be used and the music chosen months in advance. When I got = to the church the evening of rehearsal, the organ was pad-locked. After a = call to the organist, who was out of town, the pastor reported that the = organist was mad that someone else was going to be playing her instrument, as it = had just been repositioned in the sanctuary (with no additions), and took the key with her for the weekend. Needless to say the bride, groom and pastor were not amused. After a quick trip to the music store for some piano = music it all turned out ok.   The pastor mentioned to me that the organists contract was being reviewed = by the council that evening.    
(back) Subject: Re: An interesting experience...... From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 11:37:23 -0700   you may find parts of this dialog useful.     >John Vanderlee wrote: > >> I think this is one of the reasons now that the electrical code >> requires separate runs that are fused individually. i think it is 6 >> Amp per branch? size of the wire plays a role in this... > >Article 650.7 states that circuits shall be so arranged that #26 AWG and >#28 AWG wires are protected by an overcurrent device rated at not more = than >6 amperes. The returns from windchests, according to Article 6450.5A = shall >not be less than #14 AWG. > >> I believe the NEC actually has a section on the wiring of organs. > >It does. Article 650. Certain sections of other articles apply as well, >such as Article 640, which covers Audio signal, processing, amplification >and reproduction equipment (which is what electronic organs is covered >under); Article 645, covering Information Technology Equipment (in the = case >of computers being used in pipe organs and Article 647 for sensitive >electronic equipment. > >Anyone wiring pipe organs should obtain a copy of this article and FOLLOW >it! I'll spare the list of my diatribe concerning all of the awful organ >wiring I've encountered and replaced over the years. > >My company website has much useful information regarding organ wiring if >you'd care to check it out. > >Faithfully, > >G.A. > >-- >Richard Schneider, PRES/CEO <>< >Schneider Pipe Organs, Inc. >41-43 Johnston St./P.O. Box 137 >Kenney, IL 61749-0137 >(217) 944-2454 VOX >(877) 944-2454 TOLL-FREE >(217) 944-2527 FAX >arpschneider@starband.net Home Office EMAIL >arp@schneiderpipeorgans.com SHOP EMAIL >http://www.schneiderpipeorgans.com URL ADDRESS >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org    
(back) Subject: Re: studio privileges From: "Raymond H. Clark, Quilisma Publications" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:56:00 -0700   Um, that's kind of a different issue. If you look at the sample AGO contract, "bench fees" are in it. The incumbent organist is normally guaranteed his/her customary fee if another organist plays for a NON-parochial service (wedding or funeral), since otherwise that's money out of the incumbent's pocket.   I got to the point toward the end of my career where I gave AWAY weddings because they were such a nuisance. In that case, of course, the "bench fee" rule wasn't applicable, since I CHOSE not to play for them.   I personally regard weddings and funerals somewhat differently ... historically in the Anglican tradition, it was the PARISH'S duty to provide for the burial of the dead. I was full-time, so I never charged for funerals. If I got an envelope, I usually gave it to the Altar Guild for the Vestment Fund. If I had been PART-time, I would have kept the = money.   Cheers,   Bud   brade wrote:   > I was to play for a wedding in Minneapolis several years ago for a = friend. > The wedding had all been arranged with the bride, groom and church. The > organ was to be used and the music chosen months in advance. When I got = to > the church the evening of rehearsal, the organ was pad-locked. After a = call > to the organist, who was out of town, the pastor reported that the = organist > was mad that someone else was going to be playing her instrument, as it = had > just been repositioned in the sanctuary (with no additions), and took = the > key with her for the weekend. Needless to say the bride, groom and = pastor > were not amused. After a quick trip to the music store for some piano = music > it all turned out ok. > > The pastor mentioned to me that the organists contract was being = reviewed by > the council that evening. > > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: mailto:requests@pipechat.org > > >      
(back) Subject: RE: studio privileges From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 12:00:05 -0400   jch writes:   >I am not the organist, but I can comment that our church has a strict=20 policy that the musical instruments in the sanctuary are only to be used =   for worship related music.=20   Jon, how do you put up with this, especially if you have no other access = to a pipe organ? =20   It may be skating on thin ice for a casual acquaintance to advise that = one should have a problem with one's church that one doesn't already admit to having-- but such policies have = nothing to do with Christianity, and everything to do with a bunch of petty, precious control freaks = getting onto a committee. Please let me second Richard Schneider's encouragement to you to point = out how theologically dualistic and practically short-sighted such a policy is. There's no need to make a = tempest in a teapot if a few words of sweet reason and supplication would effect a change, but don't give up. I'd threaten to = pull out of this congregation and join another, if it came to that, and = would do it, and let the whole world know why. =20