PipeChat Digest #4876 - Thursday, November 4, 2004
 
Re: Hammond Model H
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Beau's ""General Premises"
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
FW:      Music List: St Michael's, Trinity XXI [31.10.04]
  by "Henry Glass" <henry@melbay.com>
Re: "You play so loud[ly]"
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Hammond
  by <TRACKELECT@cs.com>
learning to play a Hammond
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: "You play so loud"
  by "Richard Huggins" <huggins88@yahoo.com>
RE: Hammond
  by "Mr. R.E. Malone" <remalone@btinternet.com>
Marie-Claire Alain & V. Fox CDs at OHS
  by "William T. Van Pelt" <bill@organsociety.org>
RE: Can you help me locate an album, "17TH Century Organ Music, E. Power 
  by "Mark & Cinda Towne" <mstowne@concentric.net>
RE: Can you help me locate an album, "17TH Century Organ Music, E. Power 
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net>
RE: My organ situation
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net>
RE: What do you play..
  by "John Jarvis" <jljarvis@comcast.net>
Re: What do you play...
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: "You play so loud"
  by "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca>
PVC pipe for pipes
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re:  you play too loud
  by "Roy Kersey" <rkersey@tds.net>
OFF-TOPIC: flowers ON the altar
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Hammond Model H From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:52:05 -0600   Hello, PipeChatters:   Allen said:   > That has nothing to do with the original Hammond organs or its > inventor. I am not sure it was a particualr brand( it currently > escapes me) . . .   The "Hammond" organs are now built and exported by Content, and that operation may be owned, operated by, or controlled by contract from Suzuki.   F. Richard Burt     ..      
(back) Subject: Beau's ""General Premises" From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:28:49 -0600   Beau had "General Premises About Organ Preferences."   Gee, Beau, if you think like this--with clarity, concision, and wisdom, how will you ever fit in to a church position? ;>)   Well done!!!   Dennis Steckley   "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."--Dr. Seuss        
(back) Subject: FW: Music List: St Michael's, Trinity XXI [31.10.04] From: "Henry Glass" <henry@melbay.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:34:31 -0600     I am happy to point out that the two Stanford Preludes are now available = in a new volume PRELUDES & POSTLUDES, published by Kevin Mayhew. The = Parry Chorale Preludes and the Eleven Brahms Preludes are also included. = Volume number is 1400361, and it is ready to be sent by ordering at = 1-800-8Melbay.   -----Original Message----- From: Pipe Organs and Related Topics = [mailto:PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu] On Behalf Of Deon Irish Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 12:20 PM To: PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu Subject: Music List: St Michael's, Trinity XXI [31.10.04]   Sunday, 31 October, 2004 Trinity XXI (The Rev Fr Michael Parker)   Stanford : Prelude in F, First Set No IV   Propers : In voluntate tua Service : C.V. Stanford in C &F (Kyrie arr Irish) Motet : Ave verum - Elgar   Int : Lord of beauty, tine the splendour - Regent Square Grad : Soldiers of Christ, arise - St Ehtelwald Off : A safe stronghold our God is still - Ein' feste Burg Com : Sicilienne - Faur=E9 (Matthew Reid, clarinet) Blest are the pure in heart - Franconia Rec : Praise to the Lord, the Almighty - Lobe den Herrn   Stanford : Postlude in G, First Set No V   For years I've dithered about doing the Stanford Communion settings, because of the lack of a ninefold Kyrie. I finally decided to do something about it, and this morning we did the full service, with a Kyrie written by me employing thematic material from the C major service. It works well and sounds suitably Stanfordian.   If anyone is interested, I can let them have a Sibelius file.   We had a nice chap from Reading (UK) in the congregation this morning; he is a tenor, so I've roped him in to join us for the Rheinberger D minor Requiem Mass on Tuesday evening.   Cheers   | | | | | | | | Deon Irish | | Titular Organist and Choirmaster | \ St Michael & All Angels | | Observatory, Cape \ / http://stmichael.org.za   :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Note: opinions expressed on PIPORG-L are those of the individual con- tributors and not necessarily those of the list owners nor of the Uni- versity at Albany. For a brief summary of list commands, send mail to listserv@listserv.albany.edu saying GET LSVCMMDS.TXT or see the web page at http://www.albany.edu/piporg-l/lsvcmmds.html . ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::      
(back) Subject: Re: "You play so loud[ly]" From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:37:07 -0600   I once turned up to service the organ at a church in central Pennsylvania and was asked by the Rector, "Is it possible to make the organ any = quieter; there have been complaints." I said that many congregations complain that their organist plays too loudly, but apart from encouraging him or her to use fewer stops and softer registrations there was not a lot to be done. "Oh! it isn't the congregation that's been complaining," said the Rector, "It's the Priest at the Russian Orthodox Church in the next block!"   An old friend of mine used to play at a Roman Catholic Church, where he = was told by the Priest to play the entire service on the following = combination: 8' Rohrfl=F6te 8' Viole de Gambe 8' Voix Celeste 4' Principal He quietly ignored this advice and played on a variety of mostly mezzo = forte registrations. He never received any complaints.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: Hammond From: <TRACKELECT@cs.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:38:37 EST   In light of the Hammond discussion I thought I'd point out this site for those of you who haven't found it yet:   http://www.hammond-organ.com/History/hammond_lore.htm   Cheers:   Alan B  
(back) Subject: learning to play a Hammond From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:47:58 -0800   I've often wondered about that myself ... when Hammonds first came out in the 1930s, the majority of instruments they were replacing were reed organs and 19th century trackers, or PIANOS ... I can't IMAGINE Aunt Suzy / Joe Bumbletoes making the transition from THOSE to the complexities of a Hammond EASILY, but she/he did it, to the point where printing Hammond registrations in virtually every popular collection of organ music was obligatory; Lorenz even included them in their choir = music.   Part of it might have been the popularity of the Hammond Organ magazine, and Hammond organ groups. I came across some old copies of the magazine in the bench of a B-3 ... the groups were EVERYWHERE, and they were HUGE .... in MANY cases, much larger than the local AGO chapter (!).   Of course, there were many Hammond organists who found a sound they liked (usually Great A!) and played EVERYTHING on that, pumping the swell pedal and turning the vibrato on and off as needed (chuckle), if indeed the vibrato ever GOT turned off (grin).   That's reflected in the MIDI sounds for "drawbar organ," "rock organ," "jazz organ," etc. on MIDI keyboards, etc., just as "pipe organ" is invariably full to mixtures with manual 16'.   For playback when I'm working in Sibelius, I've found that the Ocarina is a nice 8' Gedeckt (chuckle).   Still, Hammond brought an organ-like sound to places that could never have afforded it otherwise. There was a lovely old 19th century Methodist church in the small village of Homeland, south of Bartow, FL .... all wood, tall square tower with a bell, high ceilings, plaster walls, hardwood floors, not a scrap of carpet ANYWHERE ... they'd never had an organ of any sort (at least not that anyone could remember) until a family friend gave them a Hammond spinet in memory of their grandfather, who'd been the minister there. I used to go down and play for them on Sunday nights when I wasn't otherwise occupied ... they LOVED that little spinet, and the sounds it made, and in that room, it wasn't half-bad. A high school girl played it on Sunday mornings, and I showed her a few things about registration.   A lot of older organists learned what they know about mixtures and mutations and synthesizing missing stops on a pipe organ from fooling around with Hammonds.   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: "You play so loud" From: "Richard Huggins" <huggins88@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:58:34 -0600       > From: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:52:16 -0500 > To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> > Subject: PipeChat Digest #4875 - 11/04/04 > > > Subject: "You play so loud" > From: "Charles Peery" <cepeery@earthlink.net> > Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:59:59 -0500 > > Hi, colleagues, > > When I was interviewing for my present job, the interview committee > broadly hinted that I'd better be used to older people in the > congregation complaining that I play too loudly. When I said "I really > try not to do that," they replied that it didn't matter, it was a > political issue rather than a sonic one. It had something to do with > the battle they went through circa 1991 to replace their pipe organ and > move it and the choir to the Chancel from the rear balcony. Evidently > some people were against the whole thing, claiming that you didn't need > music at all in order to worship, so what's the point to it all? > > Sonically, I do try to do what we all do. I treat hymns as music, I > think about registration, leadership, excitement without > over-embellishment. I do listen to the congregation to try to judge > how much support they want/need. I vary the verse registrations, not > in a schizophrenic way, but restrained. I try not to be the main deal > on hymns, but I do try to be a good contributor. > > There has been a trickle (rather than a flood) of older people who, > every three weeks or so, meander into the clergy's offices with "I'm > not complaining, but, the organ is so loud I can't hear myself sing," > Of course, strategic error number one: they never say a word to me > about it. This alone causes me to discount them. But then I get to > thinking, "What is the best way to deal with this?" Don't get me > Anybody have any bright ideas or stock responses? I think I'm OK, but > I'd like to try to do more than just ignore the whole thing.   If your attitude toward your role as organist-accompanist is right (understanding that "organist-accompanist" is different from "organist-recitalist" when it comes to congregational hymn-playing) --and = it sounds like it is-- and if you're doing all you can do to --and it sounds like you are-- then you must simply shrug (albeit mournfully if you must) and go on. If you don't, this kind of thing will eat you alive.   Other aspects of your work and your role may be either masked by this or suffer because of it, and netiher is good. Keep everything in perspective and don't be afraid or unwilling to acknowledge the many things that you = do well and with a sincere attitude.   --Richard Huggins    
(back) Subject: RE: Hammond From: "Mr. R.E. Malone" <remalone@btinternet.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:00:29 -0000       -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of = Alan Freed Sent: 04 November 2004 16:03 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Hammond Model H   On 11/3/04 7:42 PM, "bgsx" <bgsx52@sympatico.ca> wrote:   > By the way, here's another kind of Hammond organ > >Oddly, I found no clue as to who built it. Dr. Hammond himself, perhaps?   Without delving into my LP collection I believe each division was built by different builders.   As it still plays it must have been a miracle.   Richard.    
(back) Subject: Marie-Claire Alain & V. Fox CDs at OHS From: "William T. Van Pelt" <bill@organsociety.org> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:58:57 -0500   OHS has new CDs at http://www.ohscatalog.org including a new one of Marie-Claire Alain playing the Couperin Mass for the Parishes on the organ built in 1748 by Dom Bedos and restored in 1997 at the abbey in = Sainte-Croix in Bordeaux. The recording was made at a live concert in 2002, and = captures a brilliant performance by M.-C. Alain.   Two new CDs from early masters of Virgil Fox are also available and = recorded on pipe organs, including the huge one in the Hammond Castle in = Gloucester, Massachusetts, which eventually would become Virgil's home. The other release is his very famous "Great Protestant Hymns" recorded for RCA in = 1956 and unavailable for many years.   There are also some new "Web Special" CDs from such labels as Pro Organo = and Raven being offered for $1.99 to $3.99.   Bill    
(back) Subject: RE: Can you help me locate an album, "17TH Century Organ Music, E. Power Biggs" released around 1973? From: "Mark & Cinda Towne" <mstowne@concentric.net> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:17:27 -0800   Good morning,   I looked through the entire discography of EPB as contained in the March 1978 AGO magazine (called "Music" in those days) and have not found = anything that he did around that time that contains 17th century music.   Mark S. Towne Sub Dean, Southern Nevada Chapter, AGO & Conclave Coordinator, Region IX 2006 Mid-Winter Conclave   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Jerry Richer Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:37 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Can you help me locate an album, "17TH Century Organ Music, E. Power Biggs" released around 1973?     Can you help me locate an album. I believe it was called "17TH Century Organ Music" by E. Power Biggs and released around 1973. I had it on vinyl but haven't seen it in over twenty-five years. Jerry   Chirp|Chirp|Chirp: It's the Bat, Bat Arhonious Software, = www.chirpingbat.com       ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>      
(back) Subject: RE: Can you help me locate an album, "17TH Century Organ Music, E. Power Biggs" released around 1973? From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:28:23 -0600   As I just came upstairs with Barbara Owen's book "E. Power Biggs - Concert Organist" - 1987 Indiana University Press 0-253-31801-7   She lists 148 recordings - nothing along those lines. Perhaps it was one = of the "Historic Organs of ___" or "Famous Organs of___" recordings issued in the 70s   Michael     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Mark & Cinda Towne Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 12:17 PM To: PipeChat Subject: RE: Can you help me locate an album, "17TH Century Organ Music, E. Power Biggs" released around 1973?     Good morning,   I looked through the entire discography of EPB as contained in the March 1978 AGO magazine (called "Music" in those days) and have not found = anything that he did around that time that contains 17th century music.   Mark S. Towne Sub Dean, Southern Nevada Chapter, AGO & Conclave Coordinator, Region IX 2006 Mid-Winter Conclave   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Jerry Richer Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:37 AM To: PipeChat Subject: Can you help me locate an album, "17TH Century Organ Music, E. Power Biggs" released around 1973?     Can you help me locate an album. I believe it was called "17TH Century Organ Music" by E. Power Biggs and released around 1973. I had it on vinyl but haven't seen it in over twenty-five years. Jerry   Chirp|Chirp|Chirp: It's the Bat, Bat Arhonious Software, = www.chirpingbat.com       ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>       ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>        
(back) Subject: RE: My organ situation From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:29:58 -0600   "A sin to want large and colorful instruments to play"????   I don't recall such a statement.   You did, however, completely demolish that windmill.   Michael     -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Beau Surratt Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:09 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: My organ situation     Hi! In thinking about all of this going back and forth about whether or not it is a sin to want a large and colorful instrument to play (some people seem to speak of it as though it is a sin!) I thought I'd put my 2 cents in by explaining some of the organs I've played and what I've thought about them.      
(back) Subject: RE: What do you play.. From: "John Jarvis" <jljarvis@comcast.net> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:33:30 -0800   Thanks for all of the input and I have to say I personally want what = Glenda has stated:   (who has left strict instructions for no funeral - I want an organ recital from hell and a drunken brawl) John        
(back) Subject: Re: What do you play... From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 14:01:24 -0500   On 11/4/04 10:00 AM, "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> wrote:   > There should be no flowers on the altar,   Not quite to the main point, of course, but why would there EVER be =B3flower= s on the altar=B2?   Alan  
(back) Subject: RE: "You play so loud" From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:57:22 -0500   Wow! That was a good post and a good question. You state "you'd like to try to do more than just ignore the whole thing".   I've forgotten the word used to describe people who like torturing themselves. I trust you're not one of them.   I'm presently going through a similar situation. Some people have an illegitimate complaint about me and rather than confront me (how could they?) they complain to just the right person so they can "get their own way". I allowed it to get under my skin for a week or so and did nothing to = defend myself. What a horrible week that was. The stab in the back was so painful = I couldn't tolerate it anymore. So I simply decided one day last week to = just forget about it.   I'm happy now and not happy in an "ignorance is bliss" kind of way either.   You're complainers are not upset with you, though they're pretending they are, they're apparently upset with a situation forced on them before your arrival and I can almost guarantee you their "upset" represents just the = tip of the iceberg.   Forget about it! There's an old proverb that might be of help: "if in a given situation you find you don't know how to act, act decently". Thanks for reading and all the best! AjMead   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Charles Peery Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 5:00 AM To: PipeChat Subject: "You play so loud"     Hi, colleagues,   When I was interviewing for my present job, the interview committee broadly hinted that I'd better be used to older people in the congregation complaining that I play too loudly. When I said "I really try not to do that," they replied that it didn't matter, it was a political issue rather than a sonic one. It had something to do with the battle they went through circa 1991 to replace their pipe organ and move it and the choir to the Chancel from the rear balcony. Evidently some people were against the whole thing, claiming that you didn't need music at all in order to worship, so what's the point to it all?   Sonically, I do try to do what we all do. I treat hymns as music, I think about registration, leadership, excitement without over-embellishment. I do listen to the congregation to try to judge how much support they want/need. I vary the verse registrations, not in a schizophrenic way, but restrained. I try not to be the main deal on hymns, but I do try to be a good contributor.   There has been a trickle (rather than a flood) of older people who, every three weeks or so, meander into the clergy's offices with "I'm not complaining, but, the organ is so loud I can't hear myself sing," Of course, strategic error number one: they never say a word to me about it. This alone causes me to discount them. But then I get to thinking, "What is the best way to deal with this?" Don't get me wrong, the clergy are excellent musicians and good managers, they relate these conversations in a dutiful but somewhat rueful way. They're very supportive and yet professional, which is why they feel they need to give me feedback. But you know how it is with the squeaky wheel. I feel bad that the clergy have to hear this over and over. I worry that they'll get so tired of it that the result will be that they tell me to play all hymns on General Number One (you know, that's the one where you punch it in a panic to play stringy background stuff at the 8-foot-only-pitch-level!) I know this won't really happen, but still....   Yes, I have approached older members of the congregation who have musical backgrounds. They say "Well, if they say they can't hear themselves sing, I'd want to hear how they're singing!" One older lady simply said "Buncha wimps!" I've approached musicians, I've approached retired clergy who worship with us (we have a fair number). I've talked to the choir (who sat in the congregation over the summer, I started July 1). I've gone into the room where the older ladies are folding and stuffing bulletins to ask them. They all come back with "No, it's fine, I like the way you're using the organ."   Anybody have any bright ideas or stock responses? I think I'm OK, but I'd like to try to do more than just ignore the whole thing.   Chuck Peery St. Louis     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>        
(back) Subject: PVC pipe for pipes From: "First Christian Church of Casey, Illinois" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:27:28 -0600   I'm curious about building organ pipes out of PVC pipe. I know it has been done, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of information out there as to who has done it and how. There are some obvious challenges: 1. Scaling........only certain sizes of pipe is available, so there would be "jumps" in scale rather than a continuous one. 2. Languids........if the languids were also produced of PVC, it would be difficult to adjust the languid. 3. Feet.........how would one taper a PVC foot.   Anybody with any resources or knowledge of people who've done this, let me know. I hasten to add, I'm not planning this as a professional quality instrument--just wanted to play around with the idea!   Dennis Steckley   "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."--Dr. Seuss        
(back) Subject: Re: you play too loud From: "Roy Kersey" <rkersey@tds.net> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:28:24 +0000   Dear List, If it's always older people who are complaining of the organ being = too loud, could it be they are hearing impaired and have their hearing = aides turned up too loud? I wear two adies and this is a perennial = problem for me at recitals. What usually happens is that the person is in = a fairly quiet environment at home or in a car and turns up the aides to = hear best. Some people are loudness junkies and I am one . . . then the = aides are actually louder than they should be, louder than normal people = hear, and when the organ starts to play, especially with four foot and two = foot stops engaged, there is a wealth of sound in the 1000 to 4000 cps = region where hearing is most acute and where many aides amplify the most. = It can actually be really painful if you forget to turn the aides down. I wear behind the ear aides and fool with mine continually, but in = the ear aides may be harder for some people to adjust on the fly and they = may not know how to do so . . . when complaints come in, it would be = helpful for those receiving them to find out whether the complainer is = wearing hearing aides. While people do have varying preferences for = loundness, it should be possible to find a level that pleases most people, = except for this hearing aide issue . . . Best Regards, Roy Kersey Organ Enthusiast    
(back) Subject: OFF-TOPIC: flowers ON the altar From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 13:04:05 -0800   In liturgical churches, NOTHING is supposed to go on the mensa (table of the altar) except the liturgical book, the chalice and paten, and the altar-cloths ... not even the CANDLESTICKS.   Many churches who left their high altars and erected altars facing the people did a rather tasteful job of it, with huge standing candlesticks at the four corners of the platform, and a tasteful flower arrangement in FRONT of the altar on the FLOOR.   Others place their candlesticks on the reredos (screen) or retable (shelf) BEHIND the altar itself, and the flowers on stands on either side.   The PRINCIPLE is that the TABLE is the altar where the sacrifice of Calvary is offered to God the Father, and NOTHING not concerned WITH the sacrifice goes on it.   The Altar table is solemnly consecrated in a lengthy service which has its roots in the consecration of the Second Temple ... it includes washing the altar, anointing it, sealing grains of incense in five crosses cut into it with hot wax from the paschal candle, lighting a FIRE on it, either directly (in the case of a stone altar) or in a brazier (in the case of a wooden altar) in which is burned cedar chips (in memory of the consecration of Solomon's Temple), the Five Nails from the Paschal Candle, and the rest of the solemnly-consecrated Holy Oils, wine, and incense used for the anointing and consecrating of the table.   Altars are NOT flower-stands (chuckle).   Cheers,   Bud