PipeChat Digest #4877 - Friday, November 5, 2004 Re: Memorial Service/Funeral Music by "Thurletta Brown-Gavins" <firstname.lastname@example.org> England's Paul Roberts Plays Rochester Wurlitzer (cross-posted) by "Kenneth Evans" <email@example.com> Re: Hammond Model H by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Re: OFF-TOPIC: flowers ON the altar by <Keys4bach@aol.com> Re: "You play too loud" by <ScottFop@aol.com> RE: OFF-TOPIC: flowers ON the altar by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Re: you play too loudly by "Keith Zimmerman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: PVC pipe for pipes by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: Too Loud? by "bobelms" <email@example.com> Virgil Fox Orchestral Recordings by <TubaMagna@aol.com> RE: Hammond Model H by "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: What do you play for Memorial Service by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Re: "You play so loud" by "mpm1927op4933" <email@example.com> RE: Beau's ""General Premises" by "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> PVC pipe for pipes by "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: "You play so loud" by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> RE: PVC pipe for pipes by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Flowers on the altar by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <email@example.com> Re: "You play so loud" by <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Re: PVC pipe for pipes by "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> musical fallout from the election by "Liquescent" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: Memorial Service/Funeral Music From: "Thurletta Brown-Gavins" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:15:22 -0500 I'm the other organist/funeral director on this list and thought I'd share = a few comments. In funeral-director jargon, a memorial service would be a "funeral" *without* the body present (or is the terminology used when the deceased has been cremated), and a funeral would, of course, have the body present. = Of course, the other side of this is that on All Saints Sunday the Baptist = church (I'm Episcopalian) by which I am employed as part-time organist/choir director has a special candlelighting ceremony for members = who died during the calendar year, and invites persons in the congregation = to come up and also light a candle in memory of a loved one. I'm assuming = the original post referred to the traditional funeral/memorial service not = the special All Saints service. When I have on my "organist hat," I generally call the family and ask if there are specific pieces they would like to have played. I also ask if there is something special they would like to march in on, whether there is a favorite anthem/solo to be sung, and if there is something special they would like to exit the sanctuary on. If the choices are traditional = hymns, I ramble through my music to find arrangements that "un-hymnify" things. If their tastes lean toward classical music, I use many of the ones listed here by others, but my all time favorite is selected portions = of Rutter's Requiem. In addition to the Rutter, I like to use a glorious arrangement of "Christ = The Lord Is Risen Today" as the recessional, and for the hymn-lovers, a fancy arrangement of "It Is Well With My Soul" or "Here I Am, Lord." Favorite processionals are special arrangements of "O God, Our Help In Ages Past" and "My Faith Looks Up To Thee." As an aside, a local lady whose husband was a retired Colonel requested "The Caisson Song" as the recessional. I did it, but not until I had dressed it up with Finale...beginning softly in a treble-only meditation of sorts before going into the march-style version complete with keychanges and all. Fortunately, I already had a special arrangement of "Eternal Father, Strong To Save," which is what she requested for the processional. I know that funeral-service-playing is not a "performance." There has, however, been very positive feedback when a hymn is done in non-hymnbook = fashion. In addition to playing for funerals at my "employer church," I am also called to play for services held in local funeral home chapels. Sometimes = the call comes on the morning of the service so, I have prepared two three-ring binders with plastic pre-punched sheets, enough for a 45-minute = prelude (folks come early to get a seat around here, believe it or not). As you may have guessed: one binder has my hymn-based repertoire and the other has the classical one. With a few minutes of shifting things around = to ensure that the requested processional/solo-anthem/recessional are in the right places (large, colored paper clips allow me to flip to the right = spot in a flash), I'm off to the service. As is my practice for weddings, = the last of the prelude selections is always something that can go on forever (in case someone faints or the cars are late arriving at the church), or be cut off immediately so that I can begin the processional selection. Our FTC-dictated funeral bill-forms have spaces for our merchandise and services, but they also have a space for an honorarium for the clergy, organist, etc. The local funeral homes for which I play add my fee to their funeral bill, and Justin was right to suggest that one's fee be communicated to the funeral director. For those who are employed full-time = by their churches, funerals for members are considered to be a part of their salaried responsibilities, I've heard, but for those of us who are part-timers, a fee is not unreasonable, I don't think. Like weddings...small fortunes are often spent for flowers, and a modest (I'm stuck at $50 right now, though weddings are much higher) honorarium should = not offend anyone's sensibilities. My advice, which echoes Justin's: be responsive to the family's requests and do everything possible (in good taste) to make the service especially = meaningful for them. Thurletta Brown-Gavins > From: <Justinhartz@aol.com> > Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 01:47:46 EST > > People like to hear comforting, familiar music at a memorial service. SNIP > Within reason, GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT and you will be a success! > P.S. Don't forget to tell the Funeral Director what your fee is! -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
(back) Subject: England's Paul Roberts Plays Rochester Wurlitzer (cross-posted) From: "Kenneth Evans" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:20:06 -0500 RTOS welcomes the return of England's famed theater organist Paul Roberts. = Paul will play our 4/23 Wurlitzer at 2:30 PM, Sunday afternoon, November 14th in the NEW Auditorium Theatre, 875 East Main Street, Rochester, NY 14605. Tickets at only $15 each will be available at the Box Office starting an hour before this event. For driving directions and much more please visit our website at http://theatreorgans.com/rochestr/ . This is another don't miss "Pops on Pipes" event! Announcement by Ken Evans, RTOS director firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond Model H From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:22:50 -0500 At 10:52 AM 2004-11-04 -0600, you wrote: >Hello, PipeChatters: > >Allen said: > > > That has nothing to do with the original Hammond organs or its > > inventor. I am not sure it was a particualr brand( it currently > > escapes me) . . . > >The "Hammond" organs are now built and exported by Content, >and that operation may be owned, operated by, or controlled >by contract from Suzuki. > >F. Richard Burt Bud and Richard, The classic organs that Hammond was marketing were made by Content in Holland. They had an association for 3 or 4 years. However, earlier this = year, that co-operation ended. Hammond had trouble moving that stuff, and = killed that end of the business, fired their staff that was involved in = the classical organs. Hammond promoted them as Aeolian-Skinner type instruments, but were in essence slightly re-worked Dutch models. Not really very pipey sounding. They never did get the 3 manual drawstop = model over here, but it is still listed along with the other models. They must still have some sitting in their warehouse I guess. Content is owned by a Dutch family, has no financial arrangement with Suzuki as far as I know. Arie V
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC: flowers ON the altar From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:22:01 EST In a message dated 11/4/2004 4:00:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, email@example.com writes: > Altars are NOT flower-stands (chuckle). > > is that why they call em communion tables? so we can commune with the flowers and candles? dale in florida back in a non-liturgical UMC church in Englwood Florida wherever the Heck that is
(back) Subject: Re: "You play too loud" From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:26:37 EST This is a wonderful thread which I have been following with great = interest, and I would like to interject here. I have found, in many instances, that when people complain about the organ = being played too loudly (yes, even with only 8 and 4 foundation stops, = believe it or not) that one or more of the following four things is most probably happening: 1) the congregation in question has probably been saddled for far too many = years with a rather inadequate combination of organist and organ. Enter = the well trained and competent musician and all hell breaks loose by the = second Sunday with a long line of whiners and complainers greeting the Pastor = after the service and letting him have it about the supposed volume of the organ. = Of course they NEVER approach the organist in person, NEVER, that would be = too considerate and show their true colors of the complainer. They always = circumvent and cause more trouble than good. 2) they (the complainers) and their fellow congregants are not singing or even ATTEMPTING to sing, and putting down their books and stand there with = their arms folded and scowling because it's easier to blame the organ and the organist than to even attempt at joining in the congregational song, no = matter HOW familiar the hymn may be. They, of course, will then go to "just the = right person" as stated in a previous email, complain and even threaten to pull = their pledge or leave the church just to get their way. Is this fair to the = music ministry or the organists abilities and training? 3) the organist MAY, in fact, be going a bit overboard with registrations = and louder, heavier stops -or...- 4) perhaps, just perhaps the people doing the complaining are actually equating LOUDNESS with the vibrations and harmonics of the bass in the = pedal line I have believed this theory for many years and still believe it to be very = true. We have all seen and heard instruments in dead rooms and live rooms = alike that have enormous scale bourdons and open woods and principals. I = honestly think that some of the sound waves from these low, flutey and quasi-boomy pipes (or digital samples) can send vibrations right through a hearing = aide or someone's ear drum to the point of being unpleasant. Let's be honest- HOW can 8 and 4 foundations be too loud?? God knows = that, to most Catholics, anything above an 8 and 4 flute with the box shut is generally "too loud." Well, what of the days of the great French = composers and their Cathedral organs? What of the huge churches and Cathedrals of the early = part of the century with their magnificent and powerful instruments? They = weren't designed and installed merely to be offensive and make the unsuspecting worshiper angry. I think that, if an organist is so insensitive that he or she doesn't know = when to play loudly and when to play softly, how to LEAD and/or ACCOMPANY congregational song that is, then they are in the wrong line of work. But = when congregants and clergy alike make generalizations such as "it's too loud," = or "the organ is always too loud" or "you will just have to start playing softer = all together," then there IS a big problem, the musician's training, abilities = and expertise are being ignored and the congregation in questions really needs = to be educated in proper accompaniment of the Liturgy or service AND the = clergy need to be more supportive of the musician's efforts AND admonish the congregation to PICK UP THE BOOK and at least TRY to sing. My two cents' worth...(well, maybe two and a half cents...) -Scott Scott F. Foppiano Memphis, TN (firstname.lastname@example.org) Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat.
(back) Subject: RE: OFF-TOPIC: flowers ON the altar From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:34:52 +1300 >In liturgical churches, NOTHING is supposed to go on the mensa (table of the altar) except the liturgical book, the chalice and paten, and the altar-cloths ... not even the CANDLESTICKS. That all depends on your tradition. Certainly, many Anglican churches have = a bar against flowers on the altar, but there is no ban on candlesticks at all. Personally, I favour the common arrangement of only standard (on the pavement) candles at a non-Eucharistic service, the two candles on the = altar for a said Eucharist, and all four for a sung Eucharist. I've introduced this at all the parishes I've been vicar of. It's increasingly common here in NZ and has, I believe strong British precedent. >Many churches who left their high altars and erected altars facing the people did a rather tasteful job of it, with huge standing candlesticks at the four corners of the platform, and a tasteful flower arrangement in FRONT of the altar on the FLOOR. Don't like this as it often obscures the altar and any frontals this may have. I much prefer tallish flower stands in each eastern corner of the sanctuary, whether the altar is attached to the east wall or = free-standing. Too, flowers are much less visible to the people if on the floor. >The PRINCIPLE is that the TABLE is the altar where the sacrifice of Calvary is offered to God the Father, and NOTHING not concerned WITH the sacrifice goes on it. Again, this depends on your tradition. To some people, the Communion is either a re-enactment of the Last Supper, or something like that. Or, as with many Anglicans worldwide, a mixture of a number of things, as it was indeed when Christ had the Last Supper with his inner circle. I do not believe it possible, therefore, to be prescriptive. >The Altar table is solemnly consecrated in a lengthy service which has its roots in the consecration of the Second Temple ... it includes washing the altar, anointing it, sealing grains of incense in five crosses cut into it with hot wax from the paschal candle, lighting a FIRE on it, either directly (in the case of a stone altar) or in a brazier (in the case of a wooden altar) in which is burned cedar chips (in memory of the consecration of Solomon's Temple), the Five Nails from the Paschal Candle, and the rest of the solemnly-consecrated Holy Oils, wine, and incense used for the anointing and consecrating of the table. This, again, depends entirely on the tradition you wish to be part of. >Altars are NOT flower-stands (chuckle). With that, I thoroughly agree. O do not like the altar being cluttered = with flowers. While I'm about, I must state my strong preference for a long and = dignified altar. The little short wooden open "coffee tables" that so Roman Catholic churches have these days don't look at all dignified or appropriate to me. = Ross
(back) Subject: Re: you play too loudly From: "Keith Zimmerman" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:13:11 -0500 List, I've dealt with this problem occasionally. At my last post (the one = with the Rodgers), one particular "pillar" fairly frequently complained = about my volume. Others thought it was fine. I do admit that I like to = play the organ loudly. To some extent, I think the problem may lie in the fact that some people = really "like" the sound of the organ and others "don't". For the ones = who don't, it doesn't take much volume to cause them to complain. For = those of us who like the sound of the organ, we enjoy the loudness. Regarding the complaints that come primarily from the elderly, OTOH, = their might be a medical explanation for some of it. Many people lose = some of their high frequency hearing as they age. They might also lose = some of their "discriminatory" hearing. By that, I mean that they have = problems when there are several sounds occuring at the same time - = singing+organ+piano or, even, trying to engage in a meaningful = conversation with someone while other fairly loud conversations or = noises might be occuring. Younger people can often "focus" their ears = on another conversation or sound even in the midst of considerable din. Another thing I was taught was that some noises might actually be = somewhat painful. We often raise our voices when we talk to elderly = hearing impaired. Oftentimes, their difficulty in understanding us is = only partially due to "deafness". With this high frequency loss, they = miss several consonant sounds. Yelling at the person is painful to = their ears. We do better by pronouncing our words slowly and = distinctly. It could actually be that some of these people's ears are hurting due to = the organ sounds. It's difficult to tell for certain. Maybe the manner = in which they express their complaints can shed a little light on their = true motivation. Actually, I thought I had posed a similar question a time back was how = this might be applied to aging pipe voicers. Anyway, here are a couple links to some info on presbycusis (age related = hearing loss) http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/presbycusis.asp http://deafness.about.com/cs/earbasics/a/presbycusis.htm Keith Zimmerman, M.D.
(back) Subject: Re: PVC pipe for pipes From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:25:40 EST There must be a multiplicity of reasons that no serious organbuilder = pursued the use of PVC for anything other than wind lines.
(back) Subject: Re: Too Loud? From: "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:33:18 +0800 Experiences at two different churches where I play: 1. My own Church. When I first played there the fulltime organist played = just about everything on a Claribel plus a soft selection from the swell = - everything! I played for my first service and had complaints from all = over - "too loud!" Thirty four years later I use plenty of organ with no = complaints at all. It depends on what the congregation is used to = hearing. 2. Local Catholic Church where I play a Johannus at times. The uusual = organists are really pianists - one a jazz pianist, and not all that = good at playing organs for services. First thing I do before a service = is to turn down the main volume control about 90 degrees. A couple of = times after a service a lady has come up to the organ and said,"There = was a complaint that you were playing too loudly." I looked at her in = astonishment and said, "But I turned the main volume down quite a lot = before the service." She then said, "Oh well don't worry about it. It = didn't seem loud to me." Sometimes you can't win anyway. Bob Elms. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DudelK@aol.com=20 To: email@example.com=20 Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:55 PM Subject: Too Loud? It's a no win, when some people have their minds made up. I once = played at an RC church where I was supposedly playing too loud, too = soft, too fast, and too slow--all at the same time. At another one where = I subbed the priest threatened to fire me if he had one complaint that = the organ was too loud, never mind that the speaking mikes were way too = loud and almost painful when the priest got rolling in his sermon. And = there are others who like full organ most all the time. Go figure. Just = do your thing tastefully and reasonably and try not to let them get to = you. David in DC
(back) Subject: Virgil Fox Orchestral Recordings From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:37:30 EST Len Levasseur asked that I post this notice to the PipeChat list: Virgil Fox made only two commercial recordings with orchestras - The = Jongen Symphonie Concertante and the Saint-Saens Symphony Number 3, recorded in = 1974. Both recordings are now available on one compact disc. Visit http://www.cafepress.com/virgilfox for more information. Len
(back) Subject: RE: Hammond Model H From: "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:48:59 -0500 Well, for better or for worse I grabbed the H. Now what I want to ask... = it is in dry but unheated storage, and we could encounter freezing = temperatures at any moment. Should I be worried about this? I had a guy at the funeral home help me get it in my van, but I unloaded = it alone. I will not try that again! LOL Damage to it and to me was minimal... this time. Andy A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com
(back) Subject: RE: What do you play for Memorial Service From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:23:31 -0500 I like most of Bud's suggestions. What I usually play are: Preludes: Bach: Easter chorale preludes from Orgelbuechlein Brahms: Various of the 11 chorale preludes. Not all of these are = appropriate, but most are. They were written, after all, in memory of = Clara Schumann, who was very dear to Brahms.=20 Postlude possibilities: Bach: Alle Menschen mussen sterben and/or Wer nur den lieben Gott = (Orgelbuechlein) Dupre: Cortege et Litanie Alain: Choral (From Suite) --if the deceased was a real music lover and = the family approve. I think that it's a fine funeral postlude, but can = understand why some might vehemently disagree. You're welcome to play = it at my funeral! (Of course, I'd like some Howells and Messiaen for = preludes, too). =20
(back) Subject: Re: "You play so loud" From: "mpm1927op4933" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:27:34 -0800 (PST) > There has been a trickle (rather than a flood) of > older people who, > every three weeks or so, meander into the clergy's > offices with "I'm > not complaining, but, the organ is so loud I can't > hear myself sing," > Of course, strategic error number one: they never > say a word to me > about it. This alone causes me to discount them. > But then I get to > thinking, "What is the best way to deal with this?" When people do that kind of thing in my church, I nicely suggest to them that they take a closer look at Christ's teachings: From Matthew 18 (King James Version): 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but ifhe neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. That's usually enough to end any further discussion right there, but if I was not a member of the church where I was playing at I'd have to give it a lot more thought as to how outspoken I'd be in replying such. Scott __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
(back) Subject: RE: Beau's ""General Premises" From: "Emmons, Paul" <PEMMONS@wcupa.edu> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:32:03 -0500 Beau Sarratt writes: >... 9. God loves equally those who build and play electronic, pipe, and=20 Hammond organs or various combinations thereof. 10. Whatever you have or want, make beautiful music no matter what. Great points. I'd add from experience: 11. You can, and probably will, find things to like in whatever organ = it's your lot to play, even the most miserable. This doesn't mean that = you're losing your taste. It means that God is merciful. Cheers, Paul Emmons
(back) Subject: PVC pipe for pipes From: "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:51:10 -0600 Hello, Dennis: You wrote: > I'm curious about building organ pipes out of PVC pipe. . . I worked through this about 15 years ago, and came to the conclusion that while it could be done, it would require too much "variation in voicing" in groups of notes, rather than having a smooth graduation from one pipe to the next. One man who reviewed agreed with the concept, but said that it would require an "infinite" set of readily available materials in thickness and plyability to make the pipes with this material. Perhaps it is long enough in time and space with the development of new materials that we should look at the possibilities again. F. Richard Burt Dorian Organs ..
(back) Subject: Re: "You play so loud" From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 19:57:05 -0500 another retort you might make when someone complains that it's too loud is = that NOWHERE does the bible say to praise God quietly. scot in spokane
(back) Subject: RE: PVC pipe for pipes From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:43:35 +1300 >One man who reviewed agreed with the concept, but said that it would require an "infinite" set of readily available materials in thickness and plyability to make the pipes with this material. I don't think this is really so. If you vary the width and the height of = the mouth, you can make the same scale, with pretty fair results, for about 5 = or 6 pipes at least. I've seen it done. Ross
(back) Subject: Flowers on the altar From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:42:10 -0600 Thanks to Bud for his description of what is appropriate on the altar; it would seem to me, too, that if you don't have the "sacrificial theology" common to Roman Catholics, then it isn't an altar.......it's a Communion Table. Altars are for sacrifices; tables are for meals. Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines
(back) Subject: Re: "You play so loud" From: <Innkawgneeto@cs.com> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:50:06 EST Well every week the pastor hears... "too loud, too soft, too fast, too = slow" all on the SAME hymns. Therefore, I must be playing them precisely right (grin). We have made a covenant in our church that there will be NO triangulating. = If you have a beef, say it directly... own the complaint, be willing to go = directly to the person you have a complaint against. Otherwise, said = complaints will be totally disregarded. There is, after 30 years, residual grudges about the Hradetsky tracker = organ that graces our sanctuary (and which I get to play). As a staff, we are committed to the ideal that "it's time to move on". Neil Brown
(back) Subject: Re: PVC pipe for pipes From: "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:20:33 -0600 Hi, Ross: Your wrote: > I don't think this is really so. If you vary the width and > the height of the mouth, you can make the same scale, > with pretty fair results, for about 5 or 6 pipes at least. I've seen it done. Isn't that the same thing that I said in the opening paragraph? I worked through this about 15 years ago, and came to the conclusion that while it could be done, it would require too much "variation in voicing" in groups of notes, rather than having a smooth graduation from one pipe to the next. You are right. About every 5 or 6 notes you could get a set of variables that would allow you to continue the basic sound, but the emphasis would be on variables of the mouth treatment as you change the physical size of the PVC "tubes" used to make the pipes. Appreciatively, Dick ..
(back) Subject: musical fallout from the election From: "Liquescent" <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 22:31:02 -0800 It has been reported on piporg-l that John Brombaugh, one of America's finest tracker organ builders, will be returning to his wife's native country (Germany?) on account of the present political climate in the USA, and will be taking part in several organ projects in Europe. Bud