PipeChat Digest #4883 - Sunday, November 7, 2004
 
RE: "You play so loud"
  by "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net>
Re: US copyright laws
  by "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com>
Boston Symphony Hall Open House -- Sunday Nov 7
  by "Charlie Jack" <Charlie@Jack.NET>
RE: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC
  by "C. Joseph Nichols" <cjn@nicholsandsimpson.com>
RE: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
VC TC
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: Political Commentary
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
Re: Virgil Fox Orchestral Recordings
  by <Voicer40@aol.com>
Re: US copyright laws
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: Hammond clocks with synchronous motors.
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
Re: I'm baaaaaaaaaaack
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
Re: Marie-Claire Alain & V. Fox CDs at OHS
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
Re: Celestes below tenor C
  by "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca>
RE: Celestes below tenor C
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Celestes below tenor C
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
 

(back) Subject: RE: "You play so loud" From: "Michael David" <michaelandmaggy@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 19:17:03 -0600   Especially the UCCers in Claremont, CA   michael   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Gfc234@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 5:58 AM To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: "You play so loud"         im in the UCC too--they like to complain. gfc    
(back) Subject: Re: US copyright laws From: "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:58:14 -0500       If I missed earlier parts of this thread, and am now being re-redundant, again, I apologize.     Who does own the publishing rights to "Happy Birthday to You"?   They were acquired by a New York accountant named John F. Sengstack when he bought the Clayton F. Summy Company in the 1930s; Sengstack eventually relocated the company to New Jersey and renamed it Birch Tree Ltd. in the 1970s. Warner Chappell (a Warner Communications division), the largest music publisher in the world, purchased Birch Tree Ltd. in late 1998 for a reported sale price of $25 million; the company then became Summy-Birchard Music, now a part of the giant AOL Time Warner media conglomerate. According to David Sengstack, president of Summy-Birchard, "Happy Birthday to You" brings in about $2 million in royalties annually, with the proceeds split between Summy-Birchard and the Hill Foundation. (Both Hill sisters died unmarried and childless, so the Hill Foundation's share of the royalties have presumably been going to charity or to nephew Archibald Hill ever since Patty Hill passed away in 1946.)   Other factoids:   http://www.fact-index.com/h/ha/happy_birthday.html       http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/training/Hirtle_Public_Domain.htm     Jim
(back) Subject: Boston Symphony Hall Open House -- Sunday Nov 7 From: "Charlie Jack" <Charlie@Jack.NET> Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 21:10:42 -0500   One last reminder about the Boston Symphony Orchestra's open house at Symphony Hall from noon to 8:00 pm at Symphony Hall in Boston. The event is open to the public and is free, just walk in.   Go to www.bso.org and click on the link for Symphony Hall Open House for a detailed schedule. The specification can for the time being be accessed at www.ed.jack.net/BSHOrgan/BSHOrganSpec.htm. The featured organists for the day will include Felix Hell, Thomas Trotter, James David Christie, Jeff Weiler and Josh Kantor. Michael Foley of Foley-Baker will demonstrate the organ. The BSO's new music director James Levine will be interviewed on stage as well.   Although the main focus of the event is the newly renovated Aeolian Skinner organ there is much more music to be had throughout the day. It is an event for people of all ages and families are encouraged to attend.   -- Charlie Jack Charlie@Jack.NET  
(back) Subject: RE: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:22:23 +1300     >--it has a voix celeste TC, only going down to C below middle C. Is this stupid or what? Is that really saving any nickels? Or just an affectation? Beats me.   On the other hand, be it noted, a Voix Celeste never goes below TenC. If = it did, now THAT would be an aberration. No one needs that bottom octave.   Ross      
(back) Subject: Re: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC From: "C. Joseph Nichols" <cjn@nicholsandsimpson.com> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:21:05 -0600     > > On the other hand, be it noted, a Voix Celeste never goes below TenC. If =   > it > did, now THAT would be an aberration. No one needs that bottom octave. > > Ross > I beg to differ. Always to low C with our organs of any size.   C. Joseph Nichols Nichols & Simpson, Inc. http://www.nicholsandsimpson.com    
(back) Subject: RE: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 15:42:02 +1300     I beg to differ. [Celestes] Always to low C with our organs of any size.   I think this would be an American thing, as it is not done in Europe, in = the UK, in Australia, South Africa or New Zealand. In that sense, and not meaning this in a bad sense, USA practice may be aberrant. My reading of years and years of Organ Club and "The Tracker" stuff from the USA have convinced me that Celestes always go only to TenC.   Ross    
(back) Subject: VC TC From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 18:50:53 -0800       TheShieling wrote:   > I beg to differ. [Celestes] Always to low C with our organs of any = size. > > I think this would be an American thing, as it is not done in Europe, in = the > UK, in Australia, South Africa or New Zealand. In that sense, and not > meaning this in a bad sense, USA practice may be aberrant. My reading of > years and years of Organ Club and "The Tracker" stuff from the USA have > convinced me that Celestes always go only to TenC. > > Ross > >   "Always" is *always* a dangerous word to use (chuckle) ... I think you will find that when money and space is available, builders in a good many countries will carry the celeste rank down to low F, or all the way to low C. I think Casavant's current practice is low F.   I think the ORIGINAL question was why an electronic substitute maker would adopt that practice, since no space or expense would be involved to make the "rank" complete to low C.   I can't remember ... what does the Italian Voce umana do? It probably DOES stop at middle or tenor C, but I'm not sure.   Personally I agree with Joe Nichols ... it's annoying when you want a full string sound with the sub and super drawn to have the celeste drop out in the bottom octave ...   Some LARGE organs have complete 16' celeste stops, and the sound is BREATHTAKING ... like a row of double basses.   But THAT'S *expensive* (grin).   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 21:45:43 -0500   Well, I'll be interested to see what other votes come in. Remember, I = was describing an _electronic_ organ. I don't see how any significant amount = of money was saved by making the VC TC on an electronic organ.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu         on 11/6/04 9:42 PM, TheShieling at TheShieling@xtra.co.nz wrote:   > > I beg to differ. [Celestes] Always to low C with our organs of any = size. > > I think this would be an American thing, as it is not done in Europe, in = the > UK, in Australia, South Africa or New Zealand. In that sense, and not > meaning this in a bad sense, USA practice may be aberrant. My reading of > years and years of Organ Club and "The Tracker" stuff from the USA have > convinced me that Celestes always go only to TenC. > > Ross >    
(back) Subject: Re: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 21:00:20 -0600   The better quality builders in twentieth-century America, like Ernest M. Skinner, usually made Voix Celestes that went all the way down to low C. Even in these days of frugality, the better builders sometimes do the = same. For example, the Celeste on the 2002 Quimby organ at Parkway U.C.C. here = in St. Louis has a full-compass Celeste on the Swell. The Celesteing effect = in the lowest octave actually does something. When you play on one you = realize that it is quite a good idea after all. I seem to remember recently = someone in the U.S. built an organ with a Celeste down to 16 ft. C, but I cannot = now remember who the builder was or which organ it was. Can anyone else?   John Speller   ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. Joseph Nichols" <cjn@nicholsandsimpson.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 8:21 PM Subject: Re: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC     > > > > > On the other hand, be it noted, a Voix Celeste never goes below TenC. = If > > it > > did, now THAT would be an aberration. No one needs that bottom octave. > > > > Ross > > > I beg to differ. Always to low C with our organs of any size. > > C. Joseph Nichols > Nichols & Simpson, Inc. > http://www.nicholsandsimpson.com      
(back) Subject: Re: Political Commentary From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 22:03:27 EST   why Emily,     who knew?     LOL   dale in florida  
(back) Subject: Re: Virgil Fox Orchestral Recordings From: <Voicer40@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:32:59 EST   The Jongen was recorded in Paris at the Palais de Chaillot. The = Saint-Seans was recorded on an Allen (not the "Black Beauty") with the Philadelphia Orchestra and Eugene Ormandy, if I remember correctly.  
(back) Subject: Re: US copyright laws From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 12:38:21 +0800   Thanks again Bud for the further explanation. It seems our laws are different in that copyright on an arrangement expires after 25 years here and copyright of that arrangement cannot be renewed. A new arrangement = must be made. That means that copies of arrangements of composers such as Bach and others who died more than 74 years ago are in the public domain again after 25 years.To keep on topic let me say that I am chiefly referring to organ music!!   I bought some organ music from the USA ( I had better not mention the name =   of the publisher) on which there is copyright marked for a date in 2000, some of which is a direct steal note for note from the original edition. That company would have great difficulty in prosecuting in Australia = because it is not a new arrangement but is a reprint of an edition on which copyright has long expired. The pieces to which I am referring are mostly = by Samuel Wesley.   I am President of a Music Eisteddfod Committee here in OZ and the = copyright laws are so complex and so fiddly that it nearly drives us up the wall. In =   another city the Eisteddfod Committee got over the problem by banning the use of photocopies altogether. However I think this is grossly unfair to composers who may have written their own music for performance at the Eisteddfod and have to use a photocopier to print out their copies. They = are the composers after all. It is also unfair to anyone who might happen to have access to a copy of, say a piece by Mendelssohn, printed in 1890 and long out of copyright, yet the performer is not allowed to play from a photocopy. That is carrying the matter to ridiculous lengths.   It is time uniform and sensible laws were passed universally that give a fair go to the performer instead of being prejudiced towards the publisher =   of arrangements, some of which have little if any alteration, of works by composers who may have died 300 years ago and cannot therefore claim any royalites for their work. At present the law is an ass! ( not the American =   version of "ass", the version with two ears and four legs and which says "Hee Haw!") BTW in my previous post on this subject I stated that "God bless America" =   was little sung here because it was relevant. I meant irrelevant. Bob Elms.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 8:37 AM Subject: Re: US copyright laws       > As I recall (this was a couple of years ago), anything coprighted before =   > 1924 (?) was in the public domain IF the copyright hadn't been renewed, > and IF it wasn't an ARRANGEMENT of something, and someone ELSE didn't = own > the copyright of the original version. > > It didn't matter if it was permanently out of print; if it was still = under > copyright, I still had to pay royalties to the original publisher for = each > and every photocopy made. > >snip > All in all, being scrupulously honest about the whole business was a = HUGE > pain in the posterior, and involved keeping logs, multiple payments, a = lot > of correspondence (EACH piece had to be checked; in some cases different =   > people held the copyrights of the text and the music) etc. etc. etc. > > Publishers in the UK (particularly OUP) get around the shorter copyright =   > period by bringing out a "new, improved edition, taken from a > newly-discovered manuscript in the Bodleian" and taking the old edition > out of print. That's PARTICULARLY annoying in the case of Byrd, Tallis, > Taverner, etc. when choirs have used the standard edition for = generations. >snip > Cheers, > > Bud >    
(back) Subject: Re: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 12:43:30 +0800   I have not seen a Voix Celeste going down below Tenor C here in this country.I have seen at times other stops which only go to tenor C = including diapasons. Bob Elms.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 10:42 AM Subject: RE: Emily Adams' commentary and VC TC     > > I beg to differ. [Celestes] Always to low C with our organs of any = size. > > I think this would be an American thing, as it is not done in Europe, in =   > the > UK, in Australia, South Africa or New Zealand. In that sense, and not > meaning this in a bad sense, USA practice may be aberrant. My reading of > years and years of Organ Club and "The Tracker" stuff from the USA have > convinced me that Celestes always go only to TenC. > > Ross > >    
(back) Subject: Re: Hammond clocks with synchronous motors. From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:58:18 EST   You mean Keith's old clock is worth something? Maybe I'll let him keep it =   when we move -- that's right -- we're moving to the great town of = Chickasha, Oklahoma, population 15,000, with a church on every corner and no piano = tuner or organ voicer. Besides, we will be retired (officially) and spend as much time as we can afford traveling. Lee  
(back) Subject: Re: I'm baaaaaaaaaaack From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 00:09:21 EST   So am I, however, temporarily. For some reason this computer came back to =   life, but mine has died. This one has been down for over a week and = suddenly decided to go online. If it freezes again, I'm off again. Lee ( with = over 500 messages)  
(back) Subject: Re: Marie-Claire Alain & V. Fox CDs at OHS From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 00:45:08 EST   We heard Marie-Claire Alain play the Couperin Mass on the Bedient at NTU, which is in mean tone temperament Thursday night. Friday night we = ventured to Oklahoma City to hear Wilma Jensen and K. Dean Walker, percussionist. We started this organ tour in Jackson, Ms., to hear Joyce Jones (from Waco, = not far from here), went to Kansas to hear Jelani Eddington on the Wurlitzer = Theater Organ, to Norman, OK to hear Dr. Samuel Porter. At the end of December I = will be retiring from an every Sunday position, to sub when I am in town, and we = hope to make more concerts (as well as Keith's work out of town). Lee  
(back) Subject: Re: Celestes below tenor C From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 01:50:41 -0500   In my travels every Casavant I've ever seen has the Viol Celeste go down = to "G" 5 1/3'.   The tenor C cut-off point is typical in many old or smaller organs where = the bottom octave of many ranks were finished off by a single stop, often a stoppered wooden set.   Remember in the Romantic era there was a strong movement that believed = that organ stops should only run as far as the orchestral equivalent. Hence the =   change in many old Oboe/Bassoon ranks where the pipe change drastically in = shape at Tenor C.   The cost factor also comes into play as a rank of pipes effectively = doubles in cost and space as you double the length.   That is part of the reason why so many organs of the 60'& 70's had almost = no ranks below 4' pitch on them. It's cheaper and of course the "old guys" = did it that way.   Never point out that the Emperor has no clothes.   "Tradition Rules! Don't mess with it!" + (:-)))))   Nelson Denton R. A. Denton & Son              
(back) Subject: RE: Celestes below tenor C From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 20:21:15 +1300   >The tenor C cut-off point is typical in many old or smaller organs where the bottom octave of many ranks were finished off by a single stop, often a stoppered wooden set.   Sorry to insist on this again, but a Celeste is not, in the organs I've played, restricted to old and smaller organs. Try St Paul's London, Liverpool Cathedral, Westminster Abbey - all organs of 5 manuals and slightly bigger than "small."   >Remember in the Romantic era there was a strong movement that believed = that   organ stops should only run as far as the orchestral equivalent. Hence the =   change in many old Oboe/Bassoon ranks where the pipe change drastically in shape at Tenor C.   I do not believe that is the reason in British organs.   >That is part of the reason why so many organs of the 60'& 70's had almost no ranks below 4' pitch on them. It's cheaper and of course the "old guys" = did it that way.   It must be a small part of the reason. Actually, most of us wanted better choruses and internal design, that's why upperwork was chosen.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Celestes below tenor C From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 17:29:54 +0800   I have two things to say in reply to this post. 1. The reason for Celestes going only to tenor C in my state was clearly = to save cost since the low 12 notes cost as much as the rest of the rank. In addition of course there is not all that much use for the bottom octave of = a Celeste in my opinion. OK you may not agree. 2. Many if not most organs I have played which had Celestes had only one rank which relied on beating with another string rank to form the Celeste. =   Again this saved a whole rank and the cost thereof. 3. Remember too that in this country there has not been the same finance accessible as seems to be available in large amounts in the USA. In my = state there is only one four manual organ, ten three manual and all of the rest are of one and two manuals. All but three of the three manual organs were built post WW2. 4. Having "almost no ranks" below 4 foot pitch was a bigger mistake than having none above 4 foot pitch. It is a mistakle that many organists are trying to have corrected right now. In some cases the 8 foot deficient organs have been replaced. Sctually most in that category here were very small instruments in some cases only one manual. Who wants to play them = now except maybe as continuo instruments? Not me! Bob Elms.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nelson Denton" <ndenton@cogeco.ca> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 2:50 PM Subject: Re: Celestes below tenor C > > Remember in the Romantic era there was a strong movement that believed > that organ stops should only run as far as the orchestral equivalent. > Hence the change in many old Oboe/Bassoon ranks where the pipe change > drastically in shape at Tenor C. > > The cost factor also comes into play as a rank of pipes effectively > doubles in cost and space as you double the length. > > That is part of the reason why so many organs of the 60'& 70's had = almost > no ranks below 4' pitch on them. It's cheaper and of course the "old = guys" > did it that way. > > Never point out that the Emperor has no clothes. > "Tradition Rules! Don't mess with it!" + (:-))))) > Nelson Denton > R. A. Denton & Son