PipeChat Digest #4897 - Friday, November 12, 2004
 
RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
Re: A tiny requiem
  by <OMusic@aol.com>
RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs
  by "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com>
MY ADDRESS
  by <Voicer40@aol.com>
Re: A question regarding harmoniums.
  by "Cole" <rcolev@woh.rr.com>
O & O O opens theTheatre Organ Section
  by "John F oss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr>
RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs
  by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com>
RE: Free reeds in pipe organs
  by "Christopher J. Howerter" <christophhowerter@sbcglobal.net>
Wurlitzer and Orgatron
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs
  by "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca>
RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
A Few Thoughts Regarding Reed Organs
  by "Patricia/Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net>
Pipechat IRC, - Tonight at 9.00 pm Eastern Time
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs
  by "Mr. R.E. Malone" <remalone@btinternet.com>
Re: Free reeds in pipe organs
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
 

(back) Subject: RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:16:50 -0500   At 07:50 AM 2004-11-13 +1300, you wrote: > >Pipe organs, electronic organs, digital organs, reed organs-- > >One thing I fail to understand is why people try to make a distinction >between "electronic" and "digital" instruments. It's a nonsense. When = folk >speak of a "digital computer" organ, they are speaking of electronic = sound >generation and amplification through loudspeakers, exactly as has been = going >on for 70 years. > >Too, it seems that "digital computer" is a silly term. I'm no computer >expert, but I thought that all computers work on a digital system. > >A good friend of mine, MA MusB FRCO ChM ADCM LRAM, always insists that = the >instrument he plays every week is not an electronic but a "digital = computer >organ". In reality it's a 2m Allen and is every bit as electronic as the >cheapest Conn spinet of 45 years ago. > >Ross   Ross,   Your thinking is valid. Digital organs are electronic. But not all digital systems are alike. Most electronic organs are of the sample playback variety, some are of the synthesis tone generation method. Both have their adherents and detractors, as both have strengths and weaknesses. But all electronic organs built today are computerized, and use digital technology for tone generation. Analog organs basically went out of production around 1990, when Johannus and Rodgers went digital. Allen, and the Italian companies were by then already producing digital instruments.   It is strange how terminology seems to get in the way of defining = something.   Sometimes you have a person objecting to the term pipe organ unless it is = a mechanical action pipe organ. Otherwise they are referred to as an electric pipe organ.   Arie V.        
(back) Subject: Re: A tiny requiem From: <OMusic@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:28:51 -0500   I was thinking of something like Handel's Water Music in his memory. Lee  
(back) Subject: RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:48:41 +1300     >Sometimes you have a person objecting to the term pipe organ unless it is = a   mechanical action pipe organ. Otherwise they are referred to as an electric pipe organ.   That's hilarious - never heard it here. :-)   Ross    
(back) Subject: RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs From: "Daniel Hancock" <dhancock@brpae.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 13:54:44 -0600   Here's what I thought:   Electronic =3D synthesis tone generation =3D Hammond, Wurlitzer, older analog organs, right?   Digital =3D sample playback =3D Allen, Rogers, etc., using recorded sound samples.   Daniel   If you can't distinguish between these types of organs by these two terms, then can you. Or isn't it important to distinguish? > >One thing I fail to understand is why people try to make a distinction >between "electronic" and "digital" instruments. It's a nonsense. When folk >speak of a "digital computer" organ, they are speaking of electronic sound >generation and amplification through loudspeakers, exactly as has been going >on for 70 years. >Ross   Ross,   Your thinking is valid. Digital organs are electronic. But not all=20 digital systems are alike. Most electronic organs are of the sample=20 playback variety, some are of the synthesis tone generation method. Both=20 have their adherents and detractors, as both have strengths and=20 weaknesses. But all electronic organs built today are computerized, and   use digital technology for tone generation. =20   Arie V.         ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>  
(back) Subject: MY ADDRESS From: <Voicer40@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:13:07 -0500   About the two items I have for sale, I apologize for not giving my = address.   Since this subject is not on topic, if you will contact me directly at my = e-mail address <voicer40@aol.com>, I will provide this information and = answer any other questions you may have.   D. Keith Morgan  
(back) Subject: Re: A question regarding harmoniums. From: "Cole" <rcolev@woh.rr.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:14:54 -0500   Bud wrote: >Um, nope. A vibrating reed (in a harmonium OR a pipe organ) CREATES the >tone; the loudspeaker merely REPRODUCES a pre-existing recorded tone, >whether a CD, sampling, or whatever.     What about the Orgatron and subsequent WurliTzers? They use blown (or was it sucked) reeds to CREATE the tone.   Cole Votaw -- Springfield, Ohio, USA        
(back) Subject: O & O O opens theTheatre Organ Section From: "John F oss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:20:13 +0200   Dear List Members, We have opened the Theatre Organ Section this week with the first two = items from my concert on the magnificent III/132 Compton organ in Malvern Town, Melbourne. This was recorded on 1st September -Schumann's "Kinderscenen" and Mozart's "Rondo a la Turque". You even get to hear me introducing the concert! You can see photographs of both the chambers and the console at http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/TheatrePipeOrganPicPost/ - this gives you some idea of the beautiful condition it is in. The spacious acoustics = of Malvern Town Hall, built in 1885 in the grand Victorian era in "British = Town Hall" style, enhance the sound. The Town Hall was enlarged in 1926, and recently restored in 1996.You can visit the web page at http://www.stonnington.vic.gov.au/library/online/history_malvern_town_hall.= h tm The pipes are in chambers either side of the stage, speaking directly into the hall. There are three sets of shutters, which can be used in any combination from ppp to "Oh My God!" Next we have two contributions from Timothy Grenz, recorded on the IV/63 1979 C. B. Fisk Organ in the House of Hope Presbyterian Church, St Paul, Minnesota USA - the "Fugue on BACH" Op. 60 No.5 by Robert Schumann and = Georg Bohm's Choral Prelude "Vater Unser Im Himmelreich". The second movement of Guilmant's Sonata No 2, played by David M Patrick = on the III/62 2000 Van den Heuvel Organ in the Katarina Church in Stockholm, Sweden completes the Pipe organ additions for the week, and we have two digital recordings to maintain the balance. We welcome Wayne Grauel to our contributors, who has sent us J. = N. Hanff's "Ein Feste Burg", recorded on the II/44 Cantor Digital Organ in Immanuel Lutheran Church in West Plains, Missouri USA. Graham Blyth, who is well known to many of you, contributes the final addition of the week, C S Lang's chirpy Tuba Tune, recorded on the Veritas organ in Buffalo. Both these instruments use Musicom technology. The Tuba Tune brings back nostalgic memories to me, as I played it in the first recital I ever gave back in 1961 on the Compton organ in St Mary = Magdalene's Paddington. It is encouraging to see that membership is growing steadily, and I would like to remind you that we welcome recordings from members of Pipechat. Many of = the organists represented are members, including Colin Mitchell, Tim Grenz and Jarle Fagerheim to name but three. We look forward to hearing your harmonium, Jarle! John Foss http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com/      
(back) Subject: RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:31:50 -0500   At 01:54 PM 2004-11-12 -0600, you wrote: >Here's what I thought: > >Electronic =3D synthesis tone generation =3D Hammond, Wurlitzer, older >analog organs, right? > >Digital =3D sample playback =3D Allen, Rogers, etc., using recorded sound >samples. > >Daniel Daniel,   I believe Allen, in the past made everyone think that their computer = organs were not electronic but digital. So their organs were digital, and everything else was analog or electronic.   But, I reality it was just another solid state or electronic piece of equipment.   Today every electronic organ is digital, but one could say there are various approaches to producing the sound.   Arie V.      
(back) Subject: RE: Free reeds in pipe organs From: "Christopher J. Howerter" <christophhowerter@sbcglobal.net> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:39:02 -0800     I must say that at Western CT State University there is a 3 rank Wicks = organ that has some reed basses. It was only up until a little while ago that I found out that the bottom 12 of the 16' Bourdon were reeds. Before then I thought to myself, well, they are doing something to save space. I = thought that it was a string at first, since it sounds like one, but then I = thought, since when are there stopped, half-length strings...lol. The idea in = itself sounds preposterous (feel free to correct me on that one!) <g>. So I = would agree that Sebastian is right concerning the reeds not being a very convincing 16' flute extension. However, under other stops, it really doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. Especially, in this particular case = at the university, it is a practice organ and it works (for the most part) = and does its job. Practice is practice, not performing anyways. For whatever it's worth...   Cheers, Chris (who has just finished practicing on the other university = organ....the Baldwin (pronounced [with a French accent]: bahl dwa)) :P -------------------------------- Subject: Free reeds in pipe organs From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:18:37 EST   CHATsters: Just a couple of quick notes here... I think if we look at the way free reed stops were used in pipe organs in the nineteenth century, we will see that they were novelties, reserved for =   softer stops that were not expected to contribute to the ensemble (with names like AEolina, Baryton, Anthroharmonicon, Dolceataerion, Omphidoclithophon, =   etc.). In the first quarter of the twentieth century, they appeared as solo stops of woodwind character, such as Clarinets and English Horns. The Clarinets, particularly those free-reed examples by Aeolian that featured = dead-length, adjustable, belled resonators, were notably fine. To be honest, the large free-reed keyboard instruments of the = harmonium and "reed organ" variety come closest in sound to steroid-fed accordions. Some of the French models, and some of the large, high-end American ones (up to =   three manuals and pedal) were rather grand-sounding affairs if placed in a =   generous acoustic, but the tens of thousands of hideous-looking "parlor organs" that were spit out of factories and shipped by rail to mail-order customers sounded as terrible as they looked. The Aeolian Orchestrelles had successful 16' stops because they used resonators and had good winding systems. The greatest mistake made in using free reed basses for smaller = cabinet pipe organs is that of using them for flute basses. They simply won't = sound like flutes, but if properly done, will take on the bowing, rosiny sound = of a 16' string, and can be made as loud as a decent Violone or as soft and cutting as a focused Dulciana. Those of you who have heard the compact disc of our Alexander Chapel organ know the effect (the Vaughan Williams and second = Bach tracks show it off). A word of caution: they are finicky creatures, and will not move up = and down with the temperature the way pipes do; they are at their most compatible in a temperature-controlled environment. They are effective because the = rate of speech, the harmonic content, and the amplitude match into the sound of = the 8' octave of pipes. They are individual sound sources, each taking up = their own space, each with an individual resonator. One of our major American pipe organ builders is currently working on = a large concert hall organ that I believe will have one or more free reed stops, built overseas to their specifications, after much research and = development.   These are free-reed pipes, as opposed to what we did at First = Presbyterian. The pipes must be made with great precision, as the tuning and alignment of = the moving parts is critical.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/   ..        
(back) Subject: Wurlitzer and Orgatron From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:57:21 -0800   Granted, but they don't really figure in the discussion, as they're not still in general use, unlike Hammonds or reed organs/harmoniums ... they were sorta a plateau on the way to the all-electronic organ.   EARLY Orgatrons, BTW, which had as many as 10-12 sets of reeds, could be played as normal reed organs WITHOUT activating the acoustical microphone pickups in the reed chamber and feeding the sound through the loudspeakers.   Wurlitzer reduced the number of sets of reeds to two (like the French harmonium, fundamental tone and string/reed tone), put them in a soundproof box with individual electrical pickups, and had them play all the time (for faster attack). All the stops were derived from those two sets of reeds by means of unification, duplexing, and various filters.   They were cheaper to build, and lighter (original Orgatrons weighed more than a tonewheeler Hammond model E or G-100) but they weren't an improvement over the original Orgatron, except perhaps for the faster attack.   Cheers,   Bud   Cole wrote:   > Bud wrote: > >> Um, nope. A vibrating reed (in a harmonium OR a pipe organ) CREATES >> the tone; the loudspeaker merely REPRODUCES a pre-existing recorded >> tone, whether a CD, sampling, or whatever. > > > > What about the Orgatron and subsequent WurliTzers? They use blown (or > was it sucked) reeds to CREATE the tone. > > Cole Votaw -- Springfield, Ohio, USA > > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: Re: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs From: "Russ Greene" <rggreene2@shaw.ca> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:56:12 -0600   Actually Ross, you're picking on the wrong side of the definition. The digital computer (yes, there have been analog computer designs) terminology refers to a methodology of sound generation so is reasonably precise; 'electronic' really doesn't indicate much except that the unit is plugged into an electric outlet. Electronic organs span several different sound generation methods, including Hammond tonewheels (yes, I know that some deem Hammond organs 'electric' organs to distinguish them from 'electronic' - two vague terms attempting to be distinctive) and analog oscillators... and of course digital computer sound generators.   So if we're going to get rid of a term, let's get rid of 'electronic'.   TTFN, Russ Greene     On Nov 12, 2004, at 12:50 PM, TheShieling wrote:   >> Pipe organs, electronic organs, digital organs, reed organs-- > > One thing I fail to understand is why people try to make a distinction > between "electronic" and "digital" instruments. It's a nonsense. When > folk > speak of a "digital computer" organ, they are speaking of electronic > sound > generation and amplification through loudspeakers, exactly as has been > going > on for 70 years. > > Too, it seems that "digital computer" is a silly term. I'm no computer > expert, but I thought that all computers work on a digital system. > > A good friend of mine, MA MusB FRCO ChM ADCM LRAM, always insists that > the > instrument he plays every week is not an electronic but a "digital > computer > organ". In reality it's a 2m Allen and is every bit as electronic as > the > cheapest Conn spinet of 45 years ago. > > Ross > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >    
(back) Subject: RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:24:06 +1300   >If you can't distinguish between these types of organs by these two terms, then can you. Or isn't it important to distinguish?   Oh, I can distinguish between them all right, tonally, and I know the differences in tone generation. To me, though, these things are = unimportant. If the sound comes through loudspeakers after having been generated electrically and not through wind-blown pipes (there are no other kinds, = of course) then it is an electronic organ, and the addition of adjectives = like "computer" or "digital" is merely pompous salesmanship.   If we accepted those extra terms, would we need another one to describe instruments that synthesise sound rather than "copy it" digitally? I'm not certain, but I think I'm right in saying instruments like the Copeman-Hart use a different system for creating the sound. But then, they are still electronic anyway.   None of this is to say "yea" or "nay" to the idea of electronics, as = that's a different debate.   Ross      
(back) Subject: RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:27:38 +1300     [snip]   >if were going to get rid of a term, let's get rid of 'electronic'.   No, I don't think so. Electronic defines very well an "organ" whose sound = is generated electrically in any kind of way, amplified electronically, and thrust out through loudspeakers of whatever kind.   If you want to make the distinction you're making, then we need a = different kind of language in other organ fields as well: after all, a Schnitger tracker organ is rather different, in a number of ways, from a WurliTzer.   Ross        
(back) Subject: A Few Thoughts Regarding Reed Organs From: "Patricia/Thomas Gregory" <tgregory@speeddial.net> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 15:25:42 -0600   Greetings;   I have been following the trend regarding reed organs/harmoniums/digital organs/etc.   I prefer to call pump organs "treadle organs". Vacuum is used to produce the sound in most American instrument, European harmoniums operate under pressure.   In the late 1800's into the early 1900's the American parlor organs were popular throughout the United States and Canada. Most of these = instruments contained two sets of reeds + a few mechanical devices (treble & bass couplers, vox humanas (paddle wheel trems), extra mutes to control the sounds of the reeds). These treadle organs usually had a five octave F - = F compass, dividing at F above middle C. Quality of these instrument varied from good to very poor. Often more money went into the cases than the playing mechanisms.   Higher quality instruments were produced by several manufacturers (Estey, Farrand & Fotey, Hinners, Mason & Hamlin, to name a few). Mason & Hamlin produced a Liszt model which was based on the stoplist of the European Mustels. This included a two rank 2' celeste in the bass and a Pedalpoint stop which sustains any note 1 - 13 until another note in that octave is played or the note is released by a special knee movement. These instruments, like their European cousins, divided at C and had 16', 8' and 4' stops throughout five octaves.   Estey also produced a two manual/30 note pedal board instrument which was the stable of many small churches. These instruments were well = constructed and served long and faithful lives. Unfortunately, they were not built to AGO specs (I wonder if they were standardized then), and were difficult to play.   In the 1930's Estey produced the Virtuoso reed organ. This instrument = had an AGO console, 32 note pedal board, swell & cres. pedals and twelve or = more 61 note sets of reeds. Action was electric, power supplied by a 12 volt = DC generator. Two levels of vacuum were produced by a turbine suction unit (for reeds) and higher vacuum supplied by a rotary pump. Complex....yes! (Maybe that is why I have yet to complete restoring ours).   The higher quality instruments were capable of producing fine musical results. There was a great deal of literature written for these instruments. Much, but not all, of the American literature is of questionable quality, but some, especially that of European composers, = shows very high compositional skills.   Literature written for pipe organ can often be played on reed organs or harmoniums, and reed organ literature can be played on pipe organs, I believe it is best to use the proper instruments for the most satisfactory musical results.   The European harmoniums, built by Mustel and others, were constructed = with the highest quality materials and superb workmanship ("workpersonship"?). The construction and voicing of the reeds resulted in an instrument unsurpassed by today's standards.   When you think of pump organs (treadle organs), remember that Aunt = Sadie's and Uncle Left-Footed Fred's hightop/w/mirrors parlor organs were only one of many instruments produced for the American John Q. Public.   Best wishes,   Tom Gregory (proud owner of "about" six instruments, including a Mason & Hamlin & = Mustel concertal.)    
(back) Subject: Pipechat IRC, - Tonight at 9.00 pm Eastern Time From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:31:18 -0500   To all Pipechatters.   You are all invited to join in with the chat this evening, and every = Monday and Friday evenings.   If you have not joined us before, you can learn about how to log in by looking at the Pipechat Web Page:   http://www.pipechat.org/   Although it mentions Windows 95 and 98, it works for Windows XP just the same as in the previous versions. It also works for Mac's too. You can log on via the Web, but it is really far too slow, and is not advised!   Once you have found out how to log on, - we would welcome you to join us tonight or any other night, - the more the merrier!   See you there?   Bob Conway  
(back) Subject: RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs From: "Mr. R.E. Malone" <remalone@btinternet.com> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 22:05:18 -0000       -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of TheShieling Sent: 12 November 2004 21:24 To: 'PipeChat' Subject: RE: reed organs/pipe organs/digital organs   When are we going to listen to the music, rather than the instruments?   Richard (UK).    
(back) Subject: Re: Free reeds in pipe organs From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 16:07:46 -0600   There used to be a lot of those little three rank Wicks organs around with harmonium reeds for the 16 ft. bass. I recall going to an ordination at = an Episcopal Church in rural Pennsylvania about twenty years ago where there was one of these and I was very impressed with its performance. The small church was packed out, and quite a few people were standing, unable to = find a seat. The singing practically raised the roof, but over it all the = little Wicks with its harmonium reed bass could be heard holding its own.   John Speller   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher J. Howerter" <christophhowerter@sbcglobal.net> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 5:39 PM Subject: RE: Free reeds in pipe organs     > > I must say that at Western CT State University there is a 3 rank Wicks organ > that has some reed basses. It was only up until a little while ago that = I > found out that the bottom 12 of the 16' Bourdon were reeds. Before then = I > thought to myself, well, they are doing something to save space. I thought > that it was a string at first, since it sounds like one, but then I thought, > since when are there stopped, half-length strings...lol. The idea in itself > sounds preposterous (feel free to correct me on that one!) <g>. So I would > agree that Sebastian is right concerning the reeds not being a very > convincing 16' flute extension. However, under other stops, it really > doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. Especially, in this particular = case at > the university, it is a practice organ and it works (for the most part) and > does its job.