PipeChat Digest #4903 - Sunday, November 14, 2004
 
Re: Actions and pipe speech onset
  by "Paul Smith" <kipsmith@getgoin.net>
More Les maitres (X-post)
  by "Jonathan Orwig" <giwro@adelphia.net>
Re: smokin' A***ns
  by "Andrew Barss" <asbarss@eastlink.ca>
RE: Actions and pipe speech onset
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
tracker action and pipe speech
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
tracker, electric, etc
  by "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Nunc Dimittis Carlos Williams, Baltimore Md (X-Posted)
  by <Wdh2@aol.com>
Re: tracker, electric, etc
  by <Gfc234@aol.com>
RE: Quoting Williams and Owen
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Saint-Saens piece
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: UN-NATURAL ACTS?
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: Quoting Williams and Owen
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: tracker, electric, etc
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re:      Re: Caleb Simper
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Re: smokin' A***ns
  by <Keys4bach@aol.com>
RE: Actions and pipe speech onset
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Actions and pipe speech onset From: "Paul Smith" <kipsmith@getgoin.net> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:41:32 -0600   I suspect that the only change in speach possible with a mechanical action =   would be in a less desirable direction. With a good electro-pneumatic = action and a properly voiced pipe, there is a good attack and a good release = every time, and a tracker can either be as good as that or less good. No doubt = it feels good to the player to be in such intimate connection with the sound = of the instrument, but if a careless release can "make listening quite unpleasant", then give me an e-p chest! Kip in MO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jarle Fagerheim" <jarle_fagerheim@yahoo.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 4:53 PM Subject: RE: Actions and pipe speech onset     > On a typical Scandinavian tracker organ of 5-25 stops > from the 80's and 90's, the touch actually makes a > noticeable difference. The release is especially > important -- a too abrubt release can make listening > quite unpleasant after a while. Harpsichord experience > seems to be quite helpful when playing these > instruments. > > - Jarle > http://jarle.moo.no > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > > >      
(back) Subject: More Les maitres (X-post) From: "Jonathan Orwig" <giwro@adelphia.net> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:43:07 -0800   As long-time list members will rememeber, I've been posting music fom the collection Les Maitres Contemporains.   You can access the latest links at: http://evensongmusic.net/free.html   posted today: pages 74-89   Posted last time: pages 43-59 and 60-73   Enjoy!   -Jonathan      
(back) Subject: Re: smokin' A***ns From: "Andrew Barss" <asbarss@eastlink.ca> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:10:10 -0400   Dale,   My interpretation (and, I believe, Allen's) of "all parts for all=20 organs" is not that the company maintains some warehouse of literally=20 every single part for every single organ ever built.   Rather, in my opinion, the point is that they are able to supply=20 compatible equipment to any customer who would rather repair than=20 replace their existing instrument.   In my experience (I do help out the local Allen dealer with service=20 work) AOC has never failed to achieve that goal -- and I am not=20 personally aware of such a failure ever happening. Further, based on my=20=   interaction with their service staff, I would suggest that AOC would=20 definitely want to hear from any customer who was told that parts could=20=   not be obtained to repair their Allen organ (i.e., therefore, they=20 should replace it). Such a statement flies directly in the face of=20 their corporate policy.   My experience with other manufacturers is limited but I have had=20 first-hand experience and heard second-hand anecdotes (from trusted=20 sources) where either parts were not available at all, or the order=20 would be accepted but the parts never actually arrived (even six to=20 eight months later).   In my opinion repairing vs replacing a part is semantics. The issue is=20=   whether the organ can be made to work for that customer.   Cheers, Andrew Barss Halifax, Nova Scotia   On Nov 13, 2004, at 9:56 PM, Keys4bach@aol.com wrote:   > <snip> ... if they believe a company has ALL PARTS FOR ALL organs,=20 > they get what they deserve.=A0 anytime you have to upgrade and put in = a=20 > new computer, it is not repairing with parts,=A0 it is replacing.=A0 > > oh well, guess it shows i am not an Allen fan. > > dale in florida=    
(back) Subject: RE: Actions and pipe speech onset From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:16:38 +1300   >I suspect that the only change in speach possible with a mechanical = action would be in a less desirable direction [snip]   Some of us have been trying to tell you that what you are suggesting is plainly not true; that, indeed, there are such things as touch-sensitive pipes in some tracker actions. Your "suspecting" is wrong, and I feel it = ill behoves anyone to make such remarks on the basis of a priori beliefs. The only answer you would accept, it seems to me, is not the word of others = but rather your own experience. Why would you suggest that being able to = control the initiation characteristics of, for example, an 8ft stopt wood flute, would be undesirable?   I've heard people play fugues on such ranks as I mentioned before - 8 & 4 Principals and 8 & 4 Flutes - on well-voiced pipes on touch-sensitive tracker actions, increasing the initial "consonant" at each entry, and down-playing that consonants in the other parts at the same time, and it = is most effective. Similarly, it is possible to use one or two stops together to play both solo and accompaniment, the difference being the deliberately-accented speech of the solo line.   Granted this may be unusual, but that does not make it impossible and is, = I firmly believe in my own experience and that of many other organists, perfectly possible. I am not a builder, but an organist, and can but = admire the work of people who make such a sensitive action in smallish organs.   Ross    
(back) Subject: tracker action and pipe speech From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 21:45:04 -0600   I don't pretend to be a very experienced organist; I've probably played = only half a dozen trackers in my life......all were newer except one small = 1860's Johnson; all were small to medium except a new Fisk. ALL of them, without exception, forced me to play better because the action had some "life" in it, some responsiveness that just isn't there on the ep's, de's, and electronics I've played.   That's not quite the same as saying that I could affect the speech of the pipes by my technique; I'm not sure I'm sophisticated enough to think = about that while playing. That same responsive action makes me play better partially because sloppiness shows up more readily in the sound that comes out. And a ten or twelve rank Martin Ott tracker organ had the most delightful touch of ANY organ I've every played anywhere anytime! Oh, was it lovely!   Regarding speech cut-off, a different topic, as I mentioned one other = time, I find that many reed ranks cut off quite abruptly and unmusically. I realize (I think it was Sebastian that pointed this out) that the cut off has to be quick so that the note can be repeated when the music requires = it. Yet, some makers have overcome the abruptness. I don't know the reason, = but I don't think I've ever heard a theatre organ (which does require a fast action) that cut the reeds off abruptly.   Just my 2 cents worth.   Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines    
(back) Subject: tracker, electric, etc From: "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:07:16 -0600   I am growing tired of this conversation, as we all have our own opinions. Some like the technological advancement of electric action while others = like the tracker action. As most of us have to do on a daily basis, we have to =   adjust our thinking about playing and reacting to these different instruments. Can we just leave it at that?   Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St. Champaign, IL 61820 217.390.0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net    
(back) Subject: Nunc Dimittis Carlos Williams, Baltimore Md (X-Posted) From: <Wdh2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:17:39 EST   It is my sad task to report that Carlos Williams, 46 of Baltimore = Maryland, Director of Music and Organist for the City Temple of Baltimore Church, = passed away at his home around 11am on Monday, November 8 of complications from a =   recently diagnosed cancer. Carlos studied at the Peabody Conservatory of Baltimore and served many diverse situations during his career as Organist = and Choirmaster, working with Roman Catholic, Baptist, United Methodist, = Christian Community and AME congregations. Carlos leaves his mother and father, two = daughters, a brother and a host of aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, friends and colleagues to mourn his passing. A service of Musical Tribute was held at = Perkin's Square Baptist Church of Baltimore City on Thursday, November 11. Choirs = and musicians from Washington, DC and Baltimore Maryland joined together with = a massed choir made up of members from the several congregations Carlos had worked = for over the past 20 years. His Wake and Funeral was held on Friday, November = 12 at Union Temple Baptist Church of Baltimore Maryland, the church pastored = first by Carlos' grandfather and now his uncle. Carlos will be buried on Monday, =   November 15 at Arbutus Memorial Park in Baltimore Maryland.   Warren D. Hood, II Upper Marlboro Maryland  
(back) Subject: Re: tracker, electric, etc From: <Gfc234@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 23:23:42 EST     In a message dated 11/13/04 10:07:41 PM, montre1978@yahoo.com writes:     > I am growing tired of this conversation, as we all have our own opinions. > Some like the technological advancement of electric action while others li= ke > the tracker action.=A0 As most of us have to do on a daily basis, we have=20= to > adjust our thinking about playing and reacting to these different > instruments.=A0 Can we just leave it at that? >=20 >=20   No-Scott-that is OUT of the question. Get with the program, dude. gfc       Gregory Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Ave. #GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net  
(back) Subject: RE: Quoting Williams and Owen From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:47:51 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   I think Ross is absolutely right.   I CAN, at a pinch, control the speech of the 8ft Principal on the organ I play; especially in the lower three octaves, but to what purpose?   The Principal speaks slowly, and gently stroking the keys into action merely makes something slow into something late.   However, I can PLAY in this way, which seems to give the psychological illusion that I am somehow in control, but the end result is probably no different, even though it FEELS different.   I believe the whole subject of controlling pipe speech at the keys is not just overstated, it is quite spurious.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK       --- TheShieling <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> wrote:   I've played small organs (say, > up to 6 stops on the > chest) where the 8ft Open Diapason and Principal, or > Stopped Diapason and > 4ft Flute, in pairs or singly, were indeed > touch-sensitive, especially from > about TenA to two octaves above.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com    
(back) Subject: Saint-Saens piece From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 21:08:13 -0800   A friend of mine is looking for Saint-Saens, "The Nightingale and the Rose," arr. L. Courtade, pub. Oliver Ditson.   Anybody know it? Anybody HAVE it?   THANKS!   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: UN-NATURAL ACTS? From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:09:39 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   OK, I'll qualify my comments a little.   The Haskell bass is a clever bit of acoustic/musical engineering which fulfils the role of saving height etc. It is a compromise nevertheless, and whilst it gives the right pitch, it is by its nature, slow of speech, and thus only "approximates" to the proper full-length pipe.   The Compton Polyphone only operates down to low EEEE, below which it plays the same note. Unlike a proper, full length or stopped 32ft, it is almost entirely fundamental in tone, and could never be true to the original. In fact, it is as "electronic" in tone as an acoustic device can get.   Even the best extension organs are a deliberate attempt to SYNTHESISE the effect of a much larger instrument. They may sound quite magnificent, but it is not insignificant that Compton, in creating the illusory cathedral organ from two thousand pipes, was at least as interested in aural perception and human suggestibility as he was in early electronic organ experiments....the two go hand in glove.   As for the Theatre Organ, Sebastian needs to do a little research. Compton not only fitted electronic valve Melotone units, he also had a Cello register which used a string and an auto tuning device.....sounding like a cat on heat!   The voicing on theatre organs is so extreme, as to represent a musical cul-de-sac, but that isn't to say that they are not fascinating, musical and thoroughly wonderful creations. The only possible development of the theatre organ was the way it went...electronically....and on to the digital synthesisers of today. Musical synthesis was the mind-set which drove both the creation of the theatre organ and which still drives the development of the electronic organ today.   Lest we forget, Wurlitzer were at the forefront of juke-boxes and electronic organ manufacture, Compton made electronic organs and there were others such as Kimball.   My DAT recorder only require a transformer....at least it doesn't need to be dismantled and re-leathered! Cost? About $75!   As for the bit about hearing, we could fill a very large book on the subject, for not only does hearing change with age, it can vary quite substantially. Furthermore, the brain is quite capable of making enormous changes to what we actually "think" we hear. The human brain is a very "creative" aural mixing-desk and recording studio.   To make matters worse, a performer will hear things that a listener cannot....it's all to do with concentration and musical focus.   Try an experiment, if you will.   Close your eyes and think about the sound of an organ you know well.......   There you are, you just heard it....or perhaps you just think you did?   A loudspeaker, like the human ear-drum, is similar in operation, except that the human ear is incredibly sensitive by way of comparison. A very good loudspeaker system is "designed" by a brain which, believe it or not, hears sound the way the rest of us do. A truly great acoustic transmission engineer can come extremely close to replicating real sound. If there is a limitation in speaker set-ups, it is a financial one, because the cost of hundreds of speakers rather than a few would be astronomical, but as the human brain can make allowances for many deficiencies, it isn't quite so important as people believe....low frequencies can come from almost anywhere to no detremental effect on the sound. It is the mid-range frequencies which matter most....the same frequencies most critical to the hunter/gatherer animal that we are.   Consider yourself in a dark jungle at night, without vision, and the place is alive with dangerous creatures. A person with normal hearing will probably survive, because they can "see" by hearing the directional mid-frequencies of animal movement, and take appropriate action, yet the brain at the same time, would virtually cancel out wind-noise, distant thunder and the sound of rainfall, to the extent that the sound of a small rodent could still be heard perfectly.   What we "hear" is not necessarily faithful to what we receive in audible waveform.   Nevertheless, the brain is a wonderful thing, and even if people choose to be the prisoners of their own minds and prejudices, it helps to have a well padded cell.   Of course, the electronic experts would argue that a well-padded cell is but another name for an anachoic chamber!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- TubaMagna@aol.com wrote:   > There's nothing "natural" about a Haskel (sic) bass > or a Compton Polyphone. > ***What? What?! > > Many extention (sic) organs are more "smoke and > mirrors" than "natural." > ***This doesn't even MEAN anything. What are you > actually trying to say?   > Etc Etc......     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com    
(back) Subject: Re: Quoting Williams and Owen From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2004 22:13:18 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Now that's just turned our perceptions upside down hasn't it?   Scott may well be right!   Back to "thinking" mode!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- Scott Montgomery <montre1978@yahoo.com> wrote:   > Do organist try to get the pipe to speak on its > attack or on it's release? > I have always been taught that its the release, > which can sound very > beautiful: at least when I play :)       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com    
(back) Subject: Re: tracker, electric, etc From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:59:05 +0800   Use your delete key Scott. There is no point in trying to suppress discussion on any subject within the parameters of the Lists. BE. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Montgomery" <montre1978@yahoo.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 12:07 PM Subject: tracker, electric, etc     >I am growing tired of this conversation, as we all have our own opinions. =   >Some like the technological advancement of electric action while others >like the tracker action. As most of us have to do on a daily basis, we >have to adjust our thinking about playing and reacting to these different =   >instruments. Can we just leave it at that? > > Scott Montgomery > 619 W Church St. > Champaign, IL 61820 > 217.390.0158 > www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >    
(back) Subject: Re: Re: Caleb Simper From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:08:08 +0800   Staffan, Caleb Simper was an English organist and composer of the 19th Century whose works were immensely popular with the run-of-the-mill church =   choirs and organists up till about 50 years ago. When I was about 16 years =   of age I used his voluntaries a lot but with maturity I wouldn't be = bothered with them. He was not a great composer of either organ music ro choral music. He = could be described as the Edouard Batiste of the English organ. His anthems ran mainly along the line of Big Opening in 4/4 time - Change of Key in 6/8 = or 3/4 time with maybe a solo for a soprano, and then Big Finish and there = was a sameness in most of his work.Probably the best of his anthems was one called King of Kings, but even that had an element of corn. All of his anthems were based on scriptural text. I still have some of his anthems in the choir cupboard but we have not = used them for years. Bob Elms       From: "Staffan Thuringer" <staffan_thuringer@YAHOO.COM.AU> To: <PIPORG-L@listserv.albany.edu> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 4:35 PM Subject: Re: Caleb Simper     > On Mon, 26 May 1997 08:19:23 EDT, Brian R. Sweetman > <Brian_R._Sweetman@canada.notes.pw.com> wrote: >>I saw the name of Caleb Simper mentioned this last week in one of the > postings. >>I have inherited several of his volumes of organ music. Can anyone tell > me who >>he was? > > Dear List, > this has been a long time coming... > There is noe a website about Simper: > > http://www.cul.co.uk/music/compx.htm > > He was quite popular in the British Empire, but were his anthems ever = sung > in the US? > Regards > Staffan Thuringer > Melbourne, Part of the British Commonwealth... > > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: > Note: opinions expressed on PIPORG-L are those of the individual con- > tributors and not necessarily those of the list owners nor of the Uni- > versity at Albany. For a brief summary of list commands, send mail to > listserv@listserv.albany.edu saying GET LSVCMMDS.TXT or see the web > page at http://www.albany.edu/piporg-l/lsvcmmds.html . > :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: =      
(back) Subject: Re: smokin' A***ns From: <Keys4bach@aol.com> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 04:21:33 EST   In a message dated 11/13/2004 10:11:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, asbarss@eastlink.ca writes:   > My experience with other manufacturers is limited but I have had > first-hand experience and heard second-hand anecdotes (from trusted > sources) where either parts were not available at all, or the order > would be accepted but the parts never actually arrived (even six to > eight months later). >   which is exactly what my anecdotal evidence is with Allen and why they = force upgrades on older models.....or the parts are really similar and new = models are not new but tweaked stuff from custom days with Phelps.   In reality, it all boils down to IF the business is still in business, and = if they take care of the end user. :-) that is really all that matters.   dale in Florida  
(back) Subject: RE: Actions and pipe speech onset From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:43:06 -0000   Good. That settles the question then. I was not aware that such tests = had been done. Although I must say that if the solenoid "yanks open the = pallet too fast" I would have thought it ought to be adjusted not to; or at any rate, replaced with an electro-pneumatic action which more accurately mimicked the kind of opening speed achieved with a tracker actuated by a human finger.   What I really doubted, however, was the claim which floats about that a skilled player can somehow influence the way the music sounds by varying = the speed with which he opens the pallet using a mechanical action. Your statement QUOTE=20 Let me clarify that although one can ALTER one's touch when playing a=20 mechanical action, one CANNOT be guaranteed of specific individual = results. UNQUOTE would seem to give the lie to such claims, which always sounded fanciful = to me.   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of TubaMagna@aol.com Sent: 14 November 2004 00:25 To: pipechat@pipechat.org Subject: Re: Actions and pipe speech onset     In a message dated 11/13/04 5:31:33 PM, will.light@btinternet.com = writes:   << So does this mean, Sebastian, that you would agree with Ross that my=20 proposed test would be invalid, because pipes need to be specially voiced in = order to   make them expressively played via tracker action and moving the same = pallets   with a magnet or an electro-pneumatic action pulling the same tracker = would=20 somehow cause the same pipes to behave differently?>>   You are actually asking me to answer two different questions, which=20 require two different answers. The test is not "invalid." The test HAS been made, and those who have played from both = mechanical=20 and electric-pulldown transmissions on the SAME organ have noticed a difference=20 in the way the pipes speak. The consensus seems to be that there is a = more=20 abrupt or violent "gulp" to the speech of pipes when the pallet is = "yanked" open=20 by a solenoid. Let me clarify that although one can ALTER one's touch when playing = a=20 mechanical action, one CANNOT be guaranteed of specific individual = results. There=20 is no sense of note shaping as a woodwind, brass, or string player might =   have, and the type of phrase shaping possible on a pianoforte is not available. Pipes do not "need to be specially voiced in order to make them=20 expressively played via tracker action." Good voicing is good voicing, = and expressive=20 playing is the charge of the organist.=20 However, organ pipes are voiced differently on different types of=20 soundboards or windchests, and different styles of action. I would = venture to say=20 that the tonal finisher and tonal director would most likely put their energies=20 into getting the best possible tone from the organ playing from the = direct=20 mechanical linkages, knowing that the tone might differ, if not suffer, = if played=20 via a remote, assisted action.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City http://www.glucknewyork.com/ ..   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>