PipeChat Digest #4925 - Thursday, November 25, 2004
 
RE: "Helmsley" vis-=E0-vis Helmsley, North Yorkshire
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
Re: Colin & Composers
  by "John F oss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr>
Re: Assistance please
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: Where to purchase Organ Music
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
Re: Birmingham, etc
  by "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es>
Re: Assistance please
  by "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu>
Re: Birmingham, etc
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: Where to purchase organ music
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Whitefield
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
RE: Whitefield
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
Flourishes on Joy to the World
  by "John Jarvis" <jljarvis@comcast.net>
Re: Whitefield
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Whitefield
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Flourishes on Joy to the World
  by "Eric James McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Re: Where to purchase Organ Music
  by <RMaryman@aol.com>
Re: Colin & Composers
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
old piano instruction books
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: Whitefield
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
CONTACT INFORMATION FOR BOB WALKER (x post)
  by <ScottFop@aol.com>
Re: CONTACT INFORMATION FOR BOB WALKER (x post)
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
Re: CONTACT INFORMATION FOR BOB WALKER (x post)
  by <OrganMD@aol.com>
Re: Birmingham, etc
  by "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: RE: "Helmsley" vis-=E0-vis Helmsley, North Yorkshire From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:21:29 -0000   According to my book about the hymn tunes in the 1932 Methodist (UK) Hymnbook, Helmsley first appeared in John Wesley's "Select Hymns with = Tunes Annext" (1765) in a slightly different form from that we know today. = Four years later it was included in Madan's "Lock Hospital Collection", the = name being changed to Helmsley and the melody to the form it now takes. = Wesley, in his "Sacred Harmony" (1780) adopted Madan's version, but retained the original name Oliver's. Various attempts have been made in the past to = show that the tune was adapted from some contemporary songs and operatic = airs, but these myths have now been finally dispelled and there is no doubt = that we owe the tune to Thomas Olivers, one of the best known of Wesley's helpers. He was born at Tregynon, Mont., and was brought up to the shoemaking trade. He led a wild and dissolute life until, when he was = about twenty-five years of age, he came under the influence of Whitefield, and associated himself with the Methodists. Wesley employed him for a time = as corrector for the press, but he was a much greater success as an = evangelist. He died in 1799. So it seems that it has Methodist origins, and since Methodism was particularly strong in Yorkshire, there is probably a link to the place. Maybe Wesley first heard the tune there? Who knows?   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of = Karl Moyer Sent: 24 November 2004 16:21 To: pipechat Subject: "Helmsley" vis-=E0-vis Helmsley, North Yorkshire   Can anyone explain any connection of the "Helmsley" tune to the town, church, or castle of Helmsley in North Yorkshire?   And, by the way, folks who go traveling in that area should go out of = their way to visit the town, church, and castle.   Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA   =20      
(back) Subject: Re: Colin & Composers From: "John F oss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:21:45 +0200   I became so engrossed in the posts on this topic that my supper was burnt = to a cinder. I'm a bit late - on the topic, I mean -and eating a ham sandwich =   instead of the Moussaka I had been looking forward to, but I suggest that Cesar Franck is definitely top tier - despite his fairly small output. He was an innovator in the world of form, notably in what is called "cyclic" form in his string quartets. He set the foundations for the world of Romantic French organ music - Tournmemire, Widor and others of the school continued where he left off. "It is on the basis of only twelve major = organ works that Franck is by many considered the greatest organ composer after J.S. Bach" (Wikipedia - an infinite source of wisdom - to which at least = one member of this list contributes articles on railways, so it must be good!) =   He did compose the Symphonic Variations for Solo Piano and Orchestra and = the Symphony in D minor, both of which appear in major concert series from = time to time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%E9sar_Franck Durufle's work is of the highest calibre, but again, he was a = perfectionist and so his output is relatively slight. I would, however, suggest that it = is on a par with that of Faure. Of course all of us have music we like - and some may argue that Stanford is as good as Mendelssohn, or C S lang the equal of Leon Boellmann - or whatever grabs you! Who are we to decide? Well, it is possible to take an objective approach - =   overall construction, thematic development, command of harmony and counterpoint, and that extra something - inspiration? John Foss http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com/      
(back) Subject: Re: Assistance please From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:26:22 -0600   Hello, Milo:   Try asking this question on Eorg-L. There you will find some pretty sharp technical types.   F. Richard Burt     .. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Milo R. Shepherd" <mrstwin2@rubberandsteel.com> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 8:08 AM Subject: Assistance please     > Have a Allen 103C at the chapel I am attending. The following problems are > noted on it and are being scheduled for repair: > > 1. Swell Mixture III is not working at all. > > 2. Amps are really soft for the first 5 to 10 minutes until they are > totally warmed up > > 3. There seems to be some tonal changes when playing on the great keyboard > > There are a few other odds and ends at this time that is also wrong with it. > I think the tone generator maybe going out on it as well. > > My question is this, on an electronic organ, when a stop goes out, is this > just the first warning of the death knell of the organ? > > Replacement isn't an option at this time. Any suggestions for what I need > to talk to the repairman about to ensure that the instrument is put into a > semi-decent working condition? > > Milo > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: Re: Where to purchase Organ Music From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 13:29:48 -0600   John,   Give http://www.pattimusic.com a try. They have an extensive catalog = and been very helpful in locating just about anything I've asked for = over the years. Friendly folks.   Cheers,   Tim Grenz ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Jarvis=20 To: 'PipeChat'=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 10:56 AM Subject: Where to purchase Organ Music     My favorite little music shop is about to close and am looking for = places that I should use to purchase organ music. The proprietor of = this little shop has been fabulous as he has researched and located many = arcane titles for me over the years. I often come up short when looking = at the OHS website or Sheet Music Online. Any suggestions of other = places that I should look?   Happy Turkey Day!   John Jarvis  
(back) Subject: Re: Birmingham, etc From: "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:46:54 +0100   Quoting John Speller:   > The natives pronouce it like that only with their tongues more or > less out, giving a very nasal sound.   and Colin Mitchell:   > > Birmingham......the UK city is best pronounced without > > opening the mouth at all.   Having lived some of my formative years almost within spitting distance of Birmingham (I tried hard but never could quite reach), I seem to remember the natives pronouncing it as "Brum". We, to the rural north, pronounced it "that place" or other, quite unrepeatable, names.   Peter.    
(back) Subject: Re: Assistance please From: "John Vanderlee" <jovanderlee@vassar.edu> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:38:21 -0800   how's the mice population in that church?. They LOVE the wiring in e-organs. my wife's Allen acted up like that . took the tech a whole day to clean up and repair the mess.   John V     >Hello, Milo: > >Try asking this question on Eorg-L. There you will >find some pretty sharp technical types. > >F. Richard Burt > > >. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Milo R. Shepherd" <mrstwin2@rubberandsteel.com> >To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> >Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 8:08 AM >Subject: Assistance please > > >> Have a Allen 103C at the chapel I am attending. The following >problems are >> noted on it and are being scheduled for repair: >> >> 1. Swell Mixture III is not working at all. >> >> 2. Amps are really soft for the first 5 to 10 minutes until >they are >> totally warmed up >> >> 3. There seems to be some tonal changes when playing on the >great keyboard >> >> There are a few other odds and ends at this time that is also >wrong with it. >> I think the tone generator maybe going out on it as well. >> >> My question is this, on an electronic organ, when a stop goes >out, is this >> just the first warning of the death knell of the organ? >> >> Replacement isn't an option at this time. Any suggestions for >what I need >> to talk to the repairman about to ensure that the instrument is >put into a >> semi-decent working condition? >> >> Milo >> >> >> >> >****************************************************************** >> "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >> PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related >topics >> HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >> List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >> Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >> List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >> >> > > > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: Re: Birmingham, etc From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 14:56:06 -0500   At 02:46 PM 11/24/2004, it was written thusly: >Having lived some of my formative years almost within spitting >distance of Birmingham (I tried hard but never could quite >reach), I seem to remember the natives pronouncing it as >"Brum". We, to the rural north, pronounced it "that place" >or other, quite unrepeatable, names. > >Peter.   Back home when I lived in London, Birmingham was called "Brum", and its inhabitants were referred to as "Brummies", and of course, we all knew the =   proper name was "Brummageon"   All the same, they have a fantastic organ in Symphony Hall, - you should try to hear it sometime!   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: Re: Where to purchase organ music From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:19:19 EST   Brodt Music in Charlotte, NC is always good--knowledgable people in both organ and choral, a HUGE selection of music in stock, stuff, and they are = more than happy to order things (I am known around there for ordering obscure works!) for you. They have both a website _www.brodtmusic.com_ (http://www.brodtmusic.com) and a toll free number 1-800-438-4129 for = your ordering pleasure. Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Whitefield From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:01:22 -0500   On 11/24/04 2:21 PM, "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> wrote:   > He led a wild and dissolute life until, when he was about twenty-five yea= rs of > age, he came under the influence of Whitefield, and associated himself wi= th > the Methodists. Wesley employed him for a time as corrector for the press= , but > he was a much greater success as an evangelist.   Will: I remember that in American Church History class we heard abut Whitefield. As I recall, he was able to preach huge sermons to immense crowds, being heard by five to ten thousand people, outdoors! I believed it=8Band I suppose I still do. But is it credible?   Alan, recalling that apparently our Lord did it!    
(back) Subject: RE: Whitefield From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 21:38:21 -0000   Wesley did it too. The thing is that a crowd of 5000 people when = standing close together, more or less in a circle, are not all that far from the speaker. Apparently from what I have read, JW and Whitefield did not = shout when preaching, just projected well in a loud conversational tone and = could be heard easily. I suppose it made a difference when the crowd wanted to listen.   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of = Alan Freed Sent: 24 November 2004 21:01 To: PipeChat Subject: Whitefield   On 11/24/04 2:21 PM, "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> wrote:   > He led a wild and dissolute life until, when he was about twenty-five years of > age, he came under the influence of Whitefield, and associated himself with > the Methodists. Wesley employed him for a time as corrector for the = press, but > he was a much greater success as an evangelist.   Will: I remember that in American Church History class we heard abut Whitefield. As I recall, he was able to preach huge sermons to immense crowds, being heard by five to ten thousand people, outdoors! I = believed it<and I suppose I still do. But is it credible?   Alan, recalling that apparently our Lord did it!     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: Flourishes on Joy to the World From: "John Jarvis" <jljarvis@comcast.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 15:39:29 -0800   Thanks for the many responses concerning your musical plans for = Christmas Eve. This particular piece, "Flourishes on Joy to the World", was = mentioned by a couple of folks and caught my attention. I have just been informed = by Gentry publishing (Fred Bock Music) that this piece is no longer in = print. Does anyone have a copy that they would be willing to photocopy and send = to me? I'll gladly reimburse you!   =20   I am sorry to report that Flourishes on Joy to the World" is now out of print. I have checked our permanent files, and, unfortunately, the inventory there is too low for us to sell one to you. If you would like = to make a copy of the piece, we would be happy for you to submit a license request to us via our website, www.fredbock.com.    
(back) Subject: Re: Whitefield From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 18:56:23 -0500   On 11/24/04 4:38 PM, "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> wrote:   > I suppose it made a difference when the crowd wanted to listen.   I'm sure you're right. Thanks MUCH for the report!   Alan      
(back) Subject: Re: Whitefield From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:01:21 -0500   On 11/24/04 4:38 PM, "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> wrote:   > JW and Whitefield did not shout when preaching, just projected well in a = loud > conversational tone and could be heard easily.   Yes. That too. It is a SKILL. It can be LEARNT! Some have a gift for it. DO all the above.   Alan (who hates over-amplification [and utterly unnecessary amplification] of stuff in church)      
(back) Subject: Re: Flourishes on Joy to the World From: "Eric James McKirdy" <emckirdy@gladstone.uoregon.edu> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 16:16:52 -0800   I would sure also love to use a copy this year.   Eric     ------------------- > Thanks for the many responses concerning your musical plans for Christmas > Eve. This particular piece, "Flourishes on Joy to the World", was mentioned > by a couple of folks and caught my attention. I have just been informed by > Gentry publishing (Fred Bock Music) that this piece is no longer in print. > Does anyone have a copy that they would be willing to photocopy and send to > me? I'll gladly reimburse you! > > > > I am sorry to report that Flourishes on Joy to the World" is now out of > print. I have checked our permanent files, and, unfortunately, the > inventory there is too low for us to sell one to you. If you would like to > make a copy of the piece, we would be happy for you to submit a license > request to us via our website, www.fredbock.com. > >  
(back) Subject: Re: Where to purchase Organ Music From: <RMaryman@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 19:30:22 EST   In a message dated 11/24/2004 11:57:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, jljarvis@comcast.net writes: My favorite little music shop is about to close and am looking for places that I should use to purchase organ music. The proprietor of this little = shop has been fabulous as he has researched and located many arcane titles for = me over the years. I often come up short when looking at the OHS website or = Sheet Music Online. Any suggestions of other places that I should look? Happy Turkey Day! John Jarvis YOu didn't say WHERE YOU ARE, but my favorite place to visit is Dale Music =   Co. in Silver Spring MD, (it's just a little bit outside DC), and they = have a VERY knowledgeable staff in the Organ/CHoral dept, and a very good = in-stock selection of all majoar and many minor composers of organ music.   Rick in VA  
(back) Subject: Re: Colin & Composers From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 08:42:03 +0800   I really wonder how anyone can have the audacity to decide who is top = drawer as a composer and who is not. Some of the greatest composers were not appreciated by their contemporaries but later were rediscovered. I have spent a few years now hunting out contemporary organ music. Some to me is ordinary but some is really exciting stuff. Whether some of the = contemporary composers are destined to be great, who knows? If we could come back in = 200 years' time we might be able to judge. At present the best we can say is that it is not a matter where we can be objective.We are too close to the times.   However , I would question the judgement of some listers who have listed some composers (Mendelssohn and Cesar Franck for instance) as not top = tier. It seems you would eliminate some of the greatest composers who ever lived =   if you don't include those in the list of the great!!!!!. Bob Elms.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "John F oss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 3:21 AM Subject: Re: Colin & Composers     >I became so engrossed in the posts on this topic that my supper was burnt =   >to a cinder. I'm a bit late - on the topic, I mean -and eating a ham >sandwich instead of the Moussaka I had been looking forward to, but I >suggest that Cesar Franck is definitely top tier - despite his fairly = small >output. He was an innovator in the world of form, notably in what is = called >"cyclic" form in his string quartets. He set the foundations for the = world >of Romantic French organ music - Tournmemire, Widor and others of the >school continued where he left off. "It is on the basis of only twelve >major organ works that Franck is by many considered the greatest organ >composer after J.S. Bach" (Wikipedia - an infinite source of wisdom - to >which at least one member of this list contributes articles on railways, = so >it must be good!) He did compose the Symphonic Variations for Solo Piano >and Orchestra and the Symphony in D minor, both of which appear in major >concert series from time to time. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%E9sar_Franck > Durufle's work is of the highest calibre, but again, he was a > perfectionist and so his output is relatively slight. I would, however, > suggest that it is on a par with that of Faure. Of course all of us have =   > music we like - and some may argue that Stanford is as good as > Mendelssohn, or C S lang the equal of Leon Boellmann - or whatever grabs =   > you! > Who are we to decide? Well, it is possible to take an objective approach = - > overall construction, thematic development, command of harmony and > counterpoint, and that extra something - inspiration? > John Foss > http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com/ > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >    
(back) Subject: old piano instruction books From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:33:50 -0600   Some time ago I purchased a box of old sheet music. Buried in it were two old piano instruction books, battered, but readable. If anybody has any interest whatsoever in these things, I'd be happy to send them to you:   1. "Standard Graded Course of Studies for the Piano Forte in Ten Grades," GRADE I, compiled by W.S.B. Mathews, published by Theodore Presser = Company, Philadelphia, 1892.   2. The same, except GRADE II, published 1919.   Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines    
(back) Subject: Re: Whitefield From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:41:22 -0600     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Whitefield     > On 11/24/04 4:38 PM, "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> wrote: > > > JW and Whitefield did not shout when preaching, just projected well in = a loud > > conversational tone and could be heard easily. > > Yes. That too. It is a SKILL. It can be LEARNT! Some have a gift = for > it. DO all the above. > > Alan (who hates over-amplification [and utterly unnecessary = amplification] > of stuff in church)   This is absolutely right. Our church has a four-second reverberation = period (wonderful for the music), but many people who read lections, do prayers, etc., cannot be heard. Most of them mumble into the micophone. The = Rector (who happens to be my wife) can always be heard distinctly, including when she is at the altar, where there is no microphone. (There is a cordless mike, but she never uses it.) A friend asked my wife a few months back to read the headings of Messiaen's "La nativit=E9 du Seigneur" at a recital = in our local cathedral, which is a much larger building. A microphone had = been set up for her to use. She asked for it to be taken away, and everyone = was able to hear her more distinctly than if it had been there. It = particularly shocked me when a few years back we had a superb choir director, who could sing like an angel in the church, but who when asked to read a lesson mumbled indistinctly into the microphone like everyone else.   It is a question of learning to project one's voice. I was lucky in that when I was about 14 the priest at my church asked me to read some lessons in church. He took me to the church, stood at the back and made me read from the Bible. "Not loud enough!" "Too fast!" Etc., etc., until I got it right. Among other things I learnt to listen for my voice coming back = from the rear of the church. And I have been able to do it ever since. The tragedy is that when my wife tries to give her readers instruction in how = to read lessons, the only people who ever turn up are the ones who can read distinctly to start with.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: CONTACT INFORMATION FOR BOB WALKER (x post) From: <ScottFop@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:42:42 EST   Does anyone have contact information for Bob Walker? A phone and email = are preferable, if possible.   Thanks very much in advance!   -Scott   Scott F. Foppiano Memphis, TN (scottfop@aol.com) Cantantibus organis Caecilia Domino decantabat.  
(back) Subject: Re: CONTACT INFORMATION FOR BOB WALKER (x post) From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:26:44 -0600   Hello, Scott: =20 The name of the company is=20 Walker Technical. =20 It is based in Zion, PA. =20 Directory assistance should=20 be able to connect you based=20 on that. =20 F. Richard Burt =20 =20 ..   Does anyone have contact information for Bob Walker? =20 A phone and email are preferable, if possible.    
(back) Subject: Re: CONTACT INFORMATION FOR BOB WALKER (x post) From: <OrganMD@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 00:44:56 EST   Hi Scott ........... The phone number is 610-966-2515  
(back) Subject: Re: Birmingham, etc From: "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 07:47:42 -0000     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Rodwell" <iof@ctv.es> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 7:46 PM Subject: Re: Birmingham, etc   [snip] "We, to the rural north, pronounced it "that place" or other, quite unrepeatable, names. .......................   But surely, Birmingham IS IN THE NORTH.   It's the first port of civilization having left London ..... i.e. the new 'home' of the Royal College of Organists   Harry Grove [a.k.a a musicman who remembers his geography lessons, in spite of it = "being the worst taught subject in schools"]