PipeChat Digest #4929 - Friday, November 26, 2004
 
Re: An objective view
  by "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au>
Organ Recordings
  by "Phil Stimmel" <pca@sover.net>
Re: stop list competition
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Disney Hall Organ on CNN
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
RE: stop list competition
  by "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca>
Bigger sound from the chapel organ
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
RE: Birmingham, etc
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: stop list competition
  by "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net>
RE: stop list competition
  by "Harry E. Martenas" <harrym@epix.net>
Entry - stop list competition
  by "Harry E. Martenas" <harrym@epix.net>
A subjective view of composers
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
RE: Entry - stop list competition
  by "Harry E. Martenas" <harrym@epix.net>
RE: arm-chair stoplist drawing
  by "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca>
PipeChat IRC this evening,
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
RE: A subjective view of composers
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: stop list competition
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Birmingham
  by "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Re: An objective view From: "bobelms" <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 07:46:05 +0800   Hey John! I suggested nothing of the kind! I responded to a lister who seemed to me to be suggesting that beyond a select few there had been no other composers in the "top tier". He excluded some of the French greats = and seemed to be excluding also the moderns.I disagreed and I stick by that statement. I also implied that some of the contemporary composers could become "top tier" but that we are too close to them to be able to judge them. I don't disagree with what you said in the rest of your post. In fact it = is in line with what I was trying to say. Bob Elms.   ----- Original Message ----- From: "John F oss" <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Cc: <bobelms@westnet.com.au> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 5:45 AM Subject: An objective view > Bob Elms, in truly democratic mood, suggests that nobody has the right = to > an informed - or otherwise - view of what constitutes greatness. I > disagree, Mr Elms.    
(back) Subject: Organ Recordings From: "Phil Stimmel" <pca@sover.net> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:04:07 -0500   As I am continuing my research and archiving of the Estey pipe organs, I = am now at the point where I am looking to obtain recordings of as many = Estey's as possible. I have recently come into the recordings that "Fats" Waller did on the Camden, NJ organ for the Victor Company (if you haven't heard these, you've never heard an Estey "jive"). Are there any members of this list that have recordings of Esteys that they might be willing to share = with me? I'm fascinated by the variety of instruments the company built, and would love to hear more from some of these instruments.   Phil Stimmel   PS I wish I could afford to add streaming audio to the website; however, = I do have one brief segment of Fats Waller imbedded in the home page.     The Estey Pipe Organ - A Virtual Museum - www.esteyorgan.com      
(back) Subject: Re: stop list competition From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:07:07 -0600   At 2:16 PM -0500 11/25/04, Andrew Mead wrote: >Dear list: > >I have a customer with an electro pneumatic organ built in the early = 70's. >The customer is a school and the organ is located in the schools chapel. >5 years ago the organ was placed into a new, much larger chapel with >acoustics that are not very good. The organ is well placed in a gallery = but >unfortunately, nothing was done to change the dynamics of the instrument = and >it is too "small" in sound to support robust hymn singing everyday at = chapel >services. It's also used for weddings and funerals. It is not used for >recitals. > >The school wishes to get a bigger sound without enlarging the organ and >without adding electronic stops, although they might consider some >electronic 16's in the pedal.   Andrew   It would be very helpful if you posted what the specification is currently and also what kind of action the instrument is on. At least that would give everyone some reference point to start with. Otherwise everyone is just dreaming!   David  
(back) Subject: Disney Hall Organ on CNN From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:04:20 -0600   CNN Headline News is doing a short piece on the Disney Hall Organ tonight. Since they seem to repeat some of the stories each hour you might still be able to catch it. It appears at about 10 minutes before the hour.   David  
(back) Subject: RE: stop list competition From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:13:59 -0500   All good questions. The chests are large enough to accommodate larger scales. The pipes in place are not very nice. They're terribly unsteady in speech in the upper registers and past experience has shown nothing other than the melting pot can redress this. There's a budget of about $150,000 USD. AjM   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Will Light Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 3:00 PM To: 'PipeChat' Subject: RE: stop list competition     Is it not possible to re-voice the existing pipework, opening up feet, = maybe increasing wind pressures etc. rather than replacing everything? Or is the pipework of much too small a scale? If the latter, then putting "louder" pipework in is liable to mean increasing the scales, and therefore you may not be able to fit the new pipes onto the existing chests. This would mean replacing or rebuilding the chests and you are well on the way to building = a new organ completely, especially if you need to replace the blower etc. to get higher pressures... Just my non-expert thoughts.   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Mead Sent: 25 November 2004 19:17 To: PipeChat Subject: stop list competition   Dear list:   I have a customer with an electro pneumatic organ built in the early 70's. The customer is a school and the organ is located in the schools chapel. 5 years ago the organ was placed into a new, much larger chapel with acoustics that are not very good. The organ is well placed in a gallery = but unfortunately, nothing was done to change the dynamics of the instrument = and it is too "small" in sound to support robust hymn singing everyday at = chapel services. It's also used for weddings and funerals. It is not used for recitals.   The school wishes to get a bigger sound without enlarging the organ and without adding electronic stops, although they might consider some electronic 16's in the pedal.   The organ is two manual and pedal. One division is under expression. The great and pedal are exposed and the organ is mechanically in good shape.   There must be an 8' trumpet in the Swell. There are 6 stops in the swell and 6 in the Great. The pedal is not likely to be changed except for the possible addition of an electronic 16' flue = to help out the lone 16' Bourdon in place already.   Any suggested stop lists assuming the swell and great can be fitted with = all new pipes and bearing in mind the necessity of a new trumpet in the Swell?   Appreciatively AjMead         ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>        
(back) Subject: Bigger sound from the chapel organ From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:08:07 -0600   Andrew--I'm not a builder, but I would think the obvious (and cheapest?) = way to get a bigger sound would be revoicing. A master voicer ought to be = able to revoice on a slightly higher pressure for more volume, without making a screamer.   Then shift all the pipework up three or four spots if need be and buy = bigger pipes for the lower end.......this effectively rescales the organ.   My very amateur thoughts.   Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines    
(back) Subject: RE: Birmingham, etc From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:22:42 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Further correction.....there are at least 31 cities listed!   What has this got to do with organs?   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- Will Light <will.light@btinternet.com> wrote:   > Er - correction Cities and Towns - only a select few > of these are Cities. >       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: stop list competition From: "Roy Redman" <rredman@imagin.net> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:43:49 -0600   Hmmm! Can you describe this past experience? Roy Redman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 8:13 PM Subject: RE: stop list competition     > All good questions. The chests are large enough to accommodate larger > scales. The pipes in place are not very nice. They're terribly unsteady = in > speech in the upper registers and past experience has shown nothing = other > than the melting pot can redress this. There's a budget of about = $150,000 > USD. > AjM > > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of > Will Light > Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 3:00 PM > To: 'PipeChat' > Subject: RE: stop list competition > > > Is it not possible to re-voice the existing pipework, opening up feet, maybe > increasing wind pressures etc. rather than replacing everything? Or is = the > pipework of much too small a scale? If the latter, then putting "louder" > pipework in is liable to mean increasing the scales, and therefore you = may > not be able to fit the new pipes onto the existing chests. This would = mean > replacing or rebuilding the chests and you are well on the way to = building a > new organ completely, especially if you need to replace the blower etc. = to > get higher pressures... > Just my non-expert thoughts. > > Will Light > Coventry UK > > -----Original Message----- > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of > Andrew Mead > Sent: 25 November 2004 19:17 > To: PipeChat > Subject: stop list competition > > Dear list: > > I have a customer with an electro pneumatic organ built in the early = 70's. > The customer is a school and the organ is located in the schools chapel. > 5 years ago the organ was placed into a new, much larger chapel with > acoustics that are not very good. The organ is well placed in a gallery but > unfortunately, nothing was done to change the dynamics of the instrument and > it is too "small" in sound to support robust hymn singing everyday at chapel > services. It's also used for weddings and funerals. It is not used for > recitals. > > The school wishes to get a bigger sound without enlarging the organ and > without adding electronic stops, although they might consider some > electronic 16's in the pedal. > > The organ is two manual and pedal. One division is under expression. The > great and pedal are exposed and the organ is mechanically in good shape. > > There must be an 8' trumpet in the Swell. > There are 6 stops in the swell and 6 in the Great. The pedal is not = likely > to be changed except for the possible addition of an electronic 16' flue to > help out the lone 16' Bourdon in place already. > > Any suggested stop lists assuming the swell and great can be fitted with all > new pipes and bearing in mind the necessity of a new trumpet in the = Swell? > > Appreciatively > AjMead > > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > > > > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > > >    
(back) Subject: RE: stop list competition From: "Harry E. Martenas" <harrym@epix.net> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:05:51 -0500   > From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On=20 > Behalf Of TheShieling   <snip>   > >Pedal - > =A016 Bourdon > 16 Leiblich Gedakt (electronic) > 8 Rohr Flote (gt) > 8 Bourdon (sw) > 4 Principal (gt) > 8 Trompette (sw) >=20 > If the manuals are on slider chests, this is impossible.   Really? Tell that to the Fisk Company, or Stephen Bicknell, and *many* other builders/designers. A second set of pallets is not trivial, but is not unusual either, particularly where space is at a premium. Of course, retrofitting them into existing slider chests might not be feasible. New pipes *and* new chests would have to be considered a new organ, of course.   Harry Martenas Bloomsburg, PA      
(back) Subject: Entry - stop list competition From: "Harry E. Martenas" <harrym@epix.net> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:24:52 -0500   The subject of small organs that had to sound big was kicked around on piporg-l 4 years ago or so. I would like to offer a proposal for such an organ by Stephen Bicknell:   ***** I have recently had to devise two schemes for organs which were to be small but had to do a big task.   One was for a parish church organ in an unusual site, where there was no room for more conventionally arranged forces. The scheme was as follows:   Pedal Bourdon 16 Open Bass 8 open wood Contra fagotto 16 from Swell Trumpet 8 from Swell Great to pedal Swell to pedal   Great Organ Open diapason 8 Stopped diapason 8 wood bass, metal treble Principal 4 Fifteenth 2 Mixture IV full tone for grandeur as well as brilliance 1-10 19 22 26 29 11-20 15 19 22 26 21-30 12 15 19 22 (2 2/3' arrives at tenor g#) 31-40 8 12 15 19 (1' gone by middle f#) 41-61 1 8 12 15 Swell to great   Swell Organ Viola da Gamba 8 Claribel flute 8 Harmonic flute 4 Flageolet 2 Cornet III (arranged for solo use above tenor g) 1-8 17 19 22 9-19 15 17 19 20-52 12 15 17 53-61 10 12 15 Contra fagotto 16 Trumpet 8 *****   Stephen's design was for a new organ, rather than a rebuild/pipe transplant of an existing instrument, but I believe much of his design would still apply.   This link should take you to his piporg-l posting, which also includes a fascinating 3 manual design: http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0008B&L=3Dpiporg-l&P=3DR= 291 2   Harry Martenas Bloomsburg, PA      
(back) Subject: A subjective view of composers From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:25:32 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   It was once said to me by a fine academic, that a great composer is one who masters many genres of writing and delivers the highest quality consistently.   All other composers are specialists, who do not warrant the title.   I think I can go along with this is one looks at the opus lists of Bach, Brahms, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann et al.   The danger is that we turn music into some sort of sporting competition.....always my problem with musical "competitions" such as take place with a vengeance in the brass band movement, and once did with local choral societies. What starts out as a well intentioned striving for that elusive thing we call "artistic quality," can easily be reduced to a scramble for accolades and rosettes!   All the other "greats" had an enormous grasp of their craft across a wide variety of ensembles and solo instruments.   However, there is "great music" which has no bearing on the creator being a "great composer."   I can think of one-trick-pony composers who have written just the one truly wonderful work for the organ. There's Healey Willan and his 'Introduction, Passacaglia, Chorale and Fugue' and Roger Duccasse with his magnificent "Pastorale." In the orchestral world, Holst is always remembered for "the Planets" and nothing else......but what a place in history he carved for himself!   Of course, the greatest travesty of all, is to judge history with modern ears. Sweelinck, for example, had real innovative genius and wrote for multiple genres of music, as did Purcell, Rameau and Monterverdi, to name but four.   Of one thing we can sure, the five GREATEST composers will probably always remain Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Handel and Brahms, and if we look at their life-work, we can immediately see that they were composers of outstanding genius who happened to be born at exactly the right time and in the right place, as Jonathan Orwig quite rightly pointed out.   Thus, it is simply not possible to compare the relative genius of, say, Bach and Monterverdi, or Purcell and Benjamin Britten, unless one studies their respective influences and periods very, very carefully.   Perhaps instead of referring to the very subjective opinion of "greatness" and "top tier" composers, we should use a different measurement.   What pieces do we never tire of hearing?   On that basis, Mendelssohn is very near the top of the pile with just his early 'Octet' and the perfection of his 'Violin Concerto'.   That just leaves the problem of Chopin......     Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- John F oss <harkat@kat.forthnet.gr> wrote:   > Bob Elms wrote: > "I really wonder how anyone can have the audacity to > decide who is top > drawer > as a composer and who is not.     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: RE: Entry - stop list competition From: "Harry E. Martenas" <harrym@epix.net> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:35:01 -0500   > This link should take you to his piporg-l posting, which also > includes a fascinating 3 manual design: > http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?A2=3Dind0008B&L=3Dpipor g-l&P=3DR291 2   If you get an error from that link, you will need to manually copy the link, including the last two parts of the link (g-l&P=3DR2912), and paste in your browser's address bar.      
(back) Subject: RE: arm-chair stoplist drawing From: "Andrew Mead" <mead@eagle.ca> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:48:07 -0500   Alright. The chests are electro pneumatic, pitman stop action, no unification, = plenty of room for rescaling of stops.   The original specs: nomenclature not necessarily accurate but sufficiently descriptive) Great 8' PrinZipal (note the spelling) 8' Stopped Flute (wood) soft and nice 4' Octave 4' Chimney flute 2' Flach flote 1-1/3' Mixture IV (it might be a 1'...my notes fail here)   Swell 8' Salicional 8' Holtz Gedackt 4' Open flute 2' Principal 2/3' Zimbell III 8' Trumpet(1-12, 1/2 length by necessity)   The specification MUST include a Trumpet 8' in the Swell.   Pedal 16' Bourdon 8' Prinzipal 8' Flute 4' Gemshorn   Again, there is NO unification involved in any part of the organ.   This little organ needs to be LOUD without becoming larger by addition of chests and drawknobs . The wind pressure can be increased. All the pipes (except the pedal pipes) can be replaced. There is a potential budget of about $150,000 USD to do this work.   Thanks for all the responses so far.   AjMead   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org]On Behalf Of Liquescent Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 5:51 PM To: PipeChat Subject: arm-chair stoplist drawing     I came in on the middle, too ... what's the original specification, and on what kind(s) of chest(s)?   Cheers,   Bud       ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>        
(back) Subject: PipeChat IRC this evening, From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:21:05 -0500   All members of PipeChat are invited to join us in the PipeChat IRC any Friday and Monday evening - beginning at 9.00 PM Eastern Time.   To find out more about the Chat room, or how to get into it, go to PipeChat-L web page at http://www.pipechat.org/   You will find out all you need to know to join us.   I hope that all our friends in the USA had a Happy Thanksgiving Day, and are not too lethargic with all the Festivities.   Tonight at 9.00 PM, - I hope that we will see you there.   Cheers,   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: RE: A subjective view of composers From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:46:51 +1300     >It was once said to me by a fine academic, that a great composer is one who masters many genres of writing and delivers the highest quality consistently.   >All other composers are specialists, who do not warrant the title.   And as you say below, that leaves the "problem of Chopin". I believes he = was one of the very greatest=3Dever of composers, but was virtually restricted = to piano only.   Too, I have a longstanding feeling that Haydn has been greatly underrated. And then, being as honest as I can be, I much prefer Vivaldi to Brahms, finding I listen to the records in the ration of about 10 Vivaldi to 1 of Brahms.   >Of one thing we can sure, the five GREATEST composers will probably always remain Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Handel and Brahms, and if we look at their life-work, we can immediately see that they were composers of outstanding genius who happened to be born at exactly the right time and in the right place, as Jonathan Orwig quite rightly pointed out.   >That just leaves the problem of Chopin......   And of course, it matters not a white how we label as top tier, 2nd, 3rd = or 27th. If we enjoy the music, or it makes us want to hear it again, or it uplifts us in some way, we are entitled to say so, and no one, but no one, can deny us our inner experience.   Vive les differences!   Ross        
(back) Subject: RE: stop list competition From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:49:58 +1300   > If the manuals are on slider chests, this is impossible.   Really? Tell that to the Fisk Company, or Stephen Bicknell, and *many* other builders/designers. A second set of pallets is not trivial, but is not unusual either, particularly where space is at a premium. Of course, retrofitting them into existing slider chests might not be feasible. New pipes *and* new chests would have to be considered a new organ, of course.   Precisely. If we are talking about the rebuild of an existing organ, it is 99.999% certain that double-pallet slider chests are not available.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Birmingham From: "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:06:52 -0000     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> To: "'PipeChat'" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 8:31 PM Subject: RE: Birmingham     "The Birmingham Town Hall organ has had a varied history with many rebuilds." [snip] _________________________________   During one of the re-builds, excess rank(s) were transferred to the Nicholson at St. Paul's church (St. Paul's Square) Hockley (in the = jewellery quarter).   This included some quite beautiful (soft) flutes - now in pride of place - =   in this instrument of reduced scale, compared to the Town Hall - which = have the 'distinction' of having been played by Mendelssohn.   This church is the 'over-spill' for St. Philip's Cathedral on high-days-and-holidays; and is the teaching instrument of the = Conservatoire.   St. Paul's has the most marvellous acoustic - and a formal Georgian structure - still with high sided pews (so lots of wood). When I asked George Thalben-Ball (then Birmingham's official organist) = which was the best stop on the organ, he replied ... "The building" and, of course, he was right.   Also, the fact that the case is not crowded with pipes and the facade not jam-packed with obstructions so that the sound flies in an almost uninterrupted line directly to the listener's ears.   How often does the 'design element' get in the way of acoustic ? Perhaps = we have another thread here ?   Harry Grove [a.k.a. a musicman able to 'name-drop' with the best of them]