PipeChat Digest #4933 - Friday, November 26, 2004
 
Re:Disney Hall Organ on CNN
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=F6te
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
Re: stop list competition
  by "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com>
Re: stop list competition, yet again, once more
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
coppel/koppel floetes
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re:Disney Hall Organ on CNN
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
RE: stop list competition
  by "alantaylor1" <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk>
Re:Disney Hall Organ on CNN
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
RE: stop list competition
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Advent-Christmas organ recital
  by <Norms0549@aol.com>
Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=F6te
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=F6te
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
Re: stop list competition
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: stop list competition
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=96te
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
hypothetical small organ
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
RE: stop list competition
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: stop list competition
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
RE: stop list competition
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
 

(back) Subject: Re:Disney Hall Organ on CNN From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:42:44 EST   >Is this masterpiece of an organ perhaps the one that will renew zeal for =   the organ among the >greater listening population? >Bravo CNN The Disney Hall organ might atract listeners because they would take note = of the organ's visual design, however, if the music performed on it is as = dull as most other organ programs, we have yet again lost the general public. =   Until organists wake up and realize that most of the general public = doesn't understand the obscure works that are often played in organ recitals, or = get bored by the dull performances of good organ literature, the organ will = never be popular. Yes, I know that we can't give them a diet of pablum, not do we =   need to give them a steady diet of nouvelle cuisine, but what's wrong with = some artfully presented meat and potatoes? The key is severalfold: if we = educate the masses as to how interesting the organ is by having some key new instruments presented in the media it will pique their attention; some = well played programs of well balanced music that show off more than mutations, = mixtures and chamades, and with music that has a melody, and might actually be a = work that is known to the public--and not an overdone, abused warhorse, usually = associated with horror movies or some sort of television commercial; and = maybe if organists would stop being such an elite clique within musical circles = and open themselves up to showing the instrument to interested kids and = others, it would further the interest. I have said it a million times, and I = will say it until I die...we organists have done this to our instrument. We have killed off the interest because of how we act and how we play it. Who = wants to be associated with something that is thought of as a dreary, dour, = lifeless instrument, when a child could be out playing a keyboard, or in the = marching band that is "exciting," but the pipe organ is "old fashioned." We know = that it doesn't have to be, but some of the organ recitals I've been to have = had less excitement than some of the funerals at my church. No matter how interesting an organ such as the Disney Hall organ is, or how large an = instrument, such as the Ruffatti being built for my church is going to be, if it's = not going to be played with verve and vigor, it won't have any continued = following after the initial "hurrah." We have the organ's best interest at = heart--I know that we don't want it to die off, but look at the organ enrollment = at music schools, it's not growing. Yes, there are many reasons why, but lack of interest is one of them. Let's keep it vibrant and vital folks, so = organs like the Disney Hall organ WILL keep drawing a crowd. Monty Bennett      
(back) Subject: Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=F6te From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:48:52 EST   Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=F6te   There is a difference. Have you documented the construction of the Weingarten Gabler Koppel?  
(back) Subject: Re: stop list competition From: "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:50:40 -0500     On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:11:38 -0600 "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> writes:   >The Koppel Flute, incidentally, was an invention of Henry Willis III.     Predating the following?   Koppelfl=F6te 8', Oberwerk; Marienkirche, Berlin, Germany; Wagner 1723. Koppelfl=F6te 4', Positiv; Abbey, Ottobeuren, Germany; Riepp 1766. Coppelfl=F6te 8', Manual II; Ochsenhausen, Baden-W=FCrtemburg, Germany; Gabler 1755.     Jim               Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the leather straps.
(back) Subject: Re: stop list competition, yet again, once more From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:52:41 EST     In a message dated 11/26/04 5:16:00 PM, cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk writes: The "organ reform movement" taught us much, but although I play a very successful example of the genre, it is not a period in organ-building I = greatly admire unless it is done particularly well and in the right building....I = am one of the fortunate few.   ....molto snippaggio...   The perfect accompaniment organ? Definitely T C Lewis!! It's all in the skill of the voicer....not the stop-list! Extended ranks? Well, if it's John Compton....just maybe.   Regards, Colin Mitchell UK   After all of that, I am even MORE confused. What point ARE you trying to = make?  
(back) Subject: coppel/koppel floetes From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:04:23 -0800   Um, wasn't the "coppel" in South German organs the 8' continuo-gedeckt that was tuned to "chamber" pitch for when the organ was used with other instruments, as it often was in Catholic South Germany? Some organs had it built into the back of the (reversed) console ... I can't remember the German for "sounding keydesk."   Cheers,   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re:Disney Hall Organ on CNN From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:08:52 -0800 (PST)       RMB10@aol.com wrote:   >Is this masterpiece of an organ perhaps the one that will renew zeal for the organ among the >greater listening population? >Bravo CNN   The Disney Hall organ might atract listeners because they would take note = of the organ's visual design, however, if the music performed on it is as = dull as most other organ programs, we have yet again lost the general = public....     Amen Bro. Monty!!     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
(back) Subject: RE: stop list competition From: "alantaylor1" <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:32:28 -0000   At Lourdes, in France, the congregations of many thousands are held with manual double doubles (32ft) not 2ft's.   Alan Taylor London     I think we are all getting a bit sidetracked by this topic - it was stated that this organ was to be purely for accompanying enthusiastic hymn = singing and the odd wedding. We don't really have to start talking about "the literature" do we? As far as I am concerned, mixtures and doubles are a waste of time when it comes = to accompanying (or leading) hymn singing. 4' tone is what makes the = difference in being able to lead successfully, plus a good bright 2' line to gee up = the sluggish.   Will Light Coventry UK   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 26/11/2004    
(back) Subject: Re:Disney Hall Organ on CNN From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:40:52 -0500   Yep... very true. We have all the organs we need to interest people in = the organ... more so possibly than ever in the USA's history. Now all we have =   to do is play music that is accessible to them. Perhaps even more importantly, we need personality. I've been listening to some more virgil =   since I brought it up before. I have found that other than some of the = Bach pieces I mentioned before, his playing was not necessarily all that outlandish, (and actually I don't mind what he did to the Bach either, really, as far as changing registrations all the time. The only thing I didn't like was that he was occasionally sloppy (not always... some of the =   stuff seems excellent!) and he played some very serious pieces. I think someone on here mentioned that he was an entertainer first and organist second. Somewhat true I think, but I think I'd rather err that way than t'uther.   Interestly, one of the most entertaining organ recitals I've been to yet = was played by Todd Wilson. I don't think anyone would accuse him of some of = the things they accuse Virgil of... his music was very serious, disciplined, musical. BUT he entertained, and that's what I remember. For the most part, I do not remember what he played. The organ he was playing had limited pistons, and he set them up anew for every piece. What did he do while setting them? Entertained the audience.   There are two good reasons why I'll never be a concert organist. One is that I'm not a very good organist. The other is that I'm not a very good entertainer. ;)   A wise sailing captain I know (he actually makes his summer living taking people on 2 hour sailing cruises, and his winter living as a ski = instructor) said to me, when I asked why he was so successful: "Keep expectations reasonable; keep debt under control; embrace guerilla marketing = techniques, try to think like your customers, understand what your business really is: =   ie; the Friend Ship is an "entertainment" business as much as a sailing business." I do the same thing, but for free (just like my organ = playing!).   He's getting a lot of customers, and they're mostly people who have never sailed before, and he's teaching them a lot about sailing in the process.   Andy     On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:08:52 -0800 (PST), T.Desiree' Hines wrote > RMB10@aol.com wrote: > > >Is this masterpiece of an organ perhaps the one that will renew zeal = for > the organ among the >greater listening population? > >Bravo CNN > > The Disney Hall organ might atract listeners because they would take > note of the organ's visual design, however, if the music performed > on it is as dull as most other organ programs, we have yet again > lost the general public.... >     A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com    
(back) Subject: RE: stop list competition From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 12:52:23 +1300     > As far as I am concerned, mixtures and doubles are a waste of time when it comes = to accompanying (or leading) hymn singing. 4' tone is what makes the = difference in being able to lead successfully, plus a good bright 2' line to gee up = the sluggish.   To me, I still find after 46 years playing the organ for accompanying singing that a Mixture is essential. It helps, enormously, too, to have a Pedal 16ft. Even in electronics this is true: on the 10yr-old Allen here, = I need not just the one on the Great and the one on the Swell, but also the card Cymbal.   Ross        
(back) Subject: Advent-Christmas organ recital From: <Norms0549@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:07:23 EST   Hi, Everyone, The Houston Chapter of the American Guild of Organists will be having a Members Recital of Advent and Christmas music at First = Presbyterian Church, Houston, on Monday night, November 29, at 7:00 PM. I haven't = seen a program as yet, but I'm playing the Variations on "Adeste Fideles" by = Gaston Dethier. Maybe I'll have some more information later. The organ is a large Harrison Aeolian-Skinner, restored by Schoenstein and Company Organ Builders, in a live acoustic. All who are = within a reasonable driving distance are encouraged to come. Norman Sutphin  
(back) Subject: Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=F6te From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:00:43 -0600   Hello,   Disposition of the 1750 Gabler organ in Weingarten:       Hauptwerk (I) Oberwerk (II) Echowerk (III) Praestant 16 Borduen II - III 16 Borduen 16 Principal 8 Principal Tutti 8 Principal 8 Rohrflaut 8 Violoncel I - III 8 Flauten 8 Octav I - II 4 Coppel 8 Quintat=F6n 8 Superoctav I - II 2 + 1 Hohlflaut 8 Viola douce 8 Hohlflaut 2 Unda maris 8 Octav 4 Mixtur IX - X 2 Solincinale 8 Hohlflaut II 4 Cimbalum XII 1 Mixtur IX - XII 4 Piffaro doux II 4 Sesquialtera VIII - IX 1 1/2 Octav doux 4 Superoctav 2 Piffaro V - VII 8 Viola II 4 Mixtur V - VI 2 Trombetten 8 Cimbalum II 2 Cornet V - VI 1 Nasat 2 Hautbois 8   Br=FCstungspositiv (IV) Hauptpedal (P) Brustpedal (BP) Principal doux 8 Contraba=DF II 32 + 16 Quintat=F6nba=DF 16 Flaut douce 8 Subba=DF 32 Superoctavba=DF 8 Quintat=F6n 8 Octavba=DF 16 Flaut douceba=DF 8 Violoncell 8 Violonba=DF 16 Violoncellba=DF 8 Rohrflaut 4 Mixturba=DF V - VI 8 Hohlflautba=DF 4 Querflaut 4 Posaunenba=DF 16 Cornetba=DF X - XI 4 Flaut travers II 4 Bombardba=DF 32 Sesquialterba=DF 3 Piffaro V - VI 4 Carillion 2 Trompetba=DF 8 Flageolett 2 Fagotba=DF 8 Cornet VIII - IX 2 Carillon 2 Vox humana 8       Cheers,   Tim   ----- Original Message ----- From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 4:48 PM Subject: Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=F6te     Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=F6te   There is a difference. Have you documented the construction of the Weingarten Gabler Koppel?   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>        
(back) Subject: Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=F6te From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:22:25 -0600   My apologies for my previous post regarding the disposition on the Weingarten organ .... a muddled mess.   A readable version of the Stop List is available here: http://www.organsandorganistsonline.com/weingarten.htm   The Oberwerk rank Colin referred to is Coppel 8'.   Cheers,   Tim Grenz   ----- Original Message ----- From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 4:48 PM Subject: Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=F6te     Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=F6te   There is a difference. Have you documented the construction of the Weingarten Gabler Koppel?   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>        
(back) Subject: Re: stop list competition From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:27:45 -0600   I did say "never or almost never actually existed on real baroque = organs," leaving open the possibility that there were a few around. So = far as the Koppelfl=F6te is concerned, it is true that some organs had = stops, generally called Copula or Copel or sometimes Koppelfl=F6te or = Coppelfluit, and generally of 8 ft. pitch. Their job was to couple or = join with stops of other pitches, rather than being used by themselves = as accompanimental stops. These could be stopped, open, or = half-stopped. I think the stopped variety tended to predominate, but = there certainly were a few chimney flute (Rohrfl=F6te) and spindle flute = (Spillfl=F6te) types around. The modern Koppelfl=F6te is generally a = rather wide scaled Spillfl=F6te, not particularly designed to "couple" = the upperwork and as such is pretty much an invention of Henry Willis = III. Walter Holtkamp's Copula stops are much nearer to what actually = existed on baroque organs. Koppelfl=F6tes were enthusiastically adopted = by G. Donald Harrison, but have now almost entirely fallen out of favor = in the USA. Similarly the Trichterregal (with harmonic trebles, very = baroque) was a M=F6ller invention.   John Speller ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jim McFarland=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 4:50 PM Subject: Re: stop list competition       On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 15:11:38 -0600 "John L. Speller" = <jlspeller@swbell.net> writes:   >The Koppel Flute, incidentally, was an invention of Henry Willis = III. =20     Predating the following?   Koppelfl=F6te 8', Oberwerk; Marienkirche, Berlin, Germany; Wagner = 1723.   Koppelfl=F6te 4', Positiv; Abbey, Ottobeuren, Germany; Riepp 1766.   Coppelfl=F6te 8', Manual II; Ochsenhausen, Baden-W=FCrtemburg, = Germany; Gabler 1755.      
(back) Subject: Re: stop list competition From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:37:46 -0600     ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 4:02 PM Subject: Re: stop list competition     > Strings I could live without....well, in point of > fact, I do!   This is precisely why I said that there is a big difference between what = is admired in organ design in the USA and the UK these days. What most Americans admire these days is something approximating to the Arthur Harrison organ at St. Mary Redcliffe, Bristol.   John Speller      
(back) Subject: Re: koppel or coppel; koppelfl=96te From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:47:20 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   I have to confess that I have not the slightest interest in the organ at Wiengarten Abbey, other than the fact that it has bells, a thunder stop and a rank of ivory pipes. I prefer REAL theatre organs!   However, I wonder if the Koppel at Weingarten is similar to the FIVE Copels at Otterbeuren, which I seem to recall are not flute registers at all. In fact, there is a Koppeldoof at Alkmaar on the van Covelens organ of 1511, but there is also a Doof at 8ft....so if someone knows what Koppel means, and what a Doof is, would they please enlighten us.   A Koppel Flute is really only a type of tapered canister-top flute, so why all the pedantry? I suppose it is quite like a Spillflute in construction, but of wider scale.   The organ I play has a delicious Koppel Flute with big ears, and frankly I wouldn't give a fig if it were called Flute, Flote, Fluit or Flauto Bastardo.....it was voiced by someone who voiced several cathedral organs rather brilliantly, and he and I are perfectly happy with the fact that it blends superbly with both a coughing, nasal 8ft Gedact AND a big, fat 8ft Rohrflute....even when they are all drawn together!   All we need to know is whether Baroque organs ever had flutes with tapered tops, and if they did, what they sounded like.   In any event, who says that we can't invent NEW stops. I recall an organ close to me, which once had an Ocarina! I never knew how it was constructed, but it sounded lovely.   We seem to have lost sight of what it was that we were talking about.   Werkprinzip should be more than skin deep scholarship and slavishly copying the past.....it is about organ integrity.....the lesson which, by now, we should all have learned.   Even with werkprinzip construction and tonal design, it is possible to employ romantic voicing, or early baroque, or middle baroque, or late baroque, northern baroque, southern baroque, french baroque....even Mexican, English or American baroque presumably.   An organ of one manual, extended, duplexed and spread over two keyboards, was not the original brief, if I recall correctly. I thought we were talking slider chests?   Concerning the extended rank of Dulzian pipes at 16, 8 & 4ft, I was referring to the tonal quality across all 75 notes of the REED pipes, rather than its contribution as an extended rank. In fact, it's probably the best such rank I've heard outside Holland, and yet came from an organ workshop with little pedigree.   The trechtregal? Would that be similar to the Trichterregal on the organ of St.Thomas, Lepizig of 1723, or the Tregterregal of the Nicolaekerk, Appingedam?   I suppose that if I had used the following stop names, everyone would have been enthusiastic:-   Swell   Hohlflute 8ft Principal 4 Fifteenth 2 Recorder 2 Sesquialtera 2 rks (12.17.) Trumpet 8     Great   English Diapason 8 Traverse Flute 8 Open Flute 4 Octave 4 Mixture (15.19.22) III   Basson 16     Pedal   Bourdon 16 Violoncello 8 Flute 4   Sw - Gt Sw - Ped Gt - Ped   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   (PS: It would still sound like a Lewis!)             __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com    
(back) Subject: hypothetical small organ From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:46:50 -0600   If one were to design a hypothetical small organ (which, of course, was = NOT what Andy asked), and assuming one doesn't want tracker, I see no reason = why it shouldn't be a well designed unit organ. Skinner made a lot of small organs where the great and swell were merely duplexed--identical on either manual.   Yes, unit ranks obviously make compromises......but I think, well done, it makes sense when resources are limited. And, as Andy suggested, keep the nomenclature clear......it is very annoying to see Gedeckt 8' on the great and Stopped Flute 8' on the swell and realize, too late, that it is the = same rank.   I always thought if I were having a small unit organ built for me, I would give each rank a particular color of stop tab. Might look a bit "theatrical," but how handy to know that each blue tab was the stopped flute; white tab, the principal; red tab, the trumpet, etc.   But the bottom line, for me, is--as long as I know what the compromises = are, and find them acceptable trade offs for the flexibility I gain, then fine.   Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines    
(back) Subject: RE: stop list competition From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:51:14 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Could Alan send us a photograph of that?   Amazing!   ;-)   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- alantaylor1 <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk> wrote:   > At Lourdes, in France, the congregations of many > thousands are held with > manual double doubles (32ft) not 2ft's.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: stop list competition From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 17:56:53 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   There is no God!   Despairingly,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> wrote:   > What most > Americans admire these days is something > approximating to the Arthur > Harrison organ at St. Mary Redcliffe, Bristol.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo  
(back) Subject: RE: stop list competition From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 15:06:19 +1300     > What most Americans admire these days is something approximating to the Arthur Harrison organ at St. Mary Redcliffe, Bristol.   To which I can only say, for me, "Eeeeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!!!!!!"   Ross