PipeChat Digest #4934 - Saturday, November 27, 2004
 
Re: Advent-Christmas organ recital
  by "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net>
St. Mary Redcliffe
  by "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net>
Re: stop list competition, yet again, once more
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: St. Mary Redcliffe
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: stop list competition
  by "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com>
Re: St. Mary Redcliffe
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: St. Mary Redcliffe
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: St. Mary Redcliffe
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: St. Mary Redcliffe
  by "bgsx" <bgsx52@sympatico.ca>
Arthur Harrison & St. Mary Redcliffe
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
from an old frump
  by "Fran Walker" <fwalker@northwestern.edu>
Re: from an old frump
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Other Bristol organs of note (nice pics)
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: from an old frump
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Prepare Thyself, Zion - Bach
  by <ProOrgo53@aol.com>
RE: stop list competition
  by "alantaylor1" <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Advent-Christmas organ recital From: "F. Richard Burt" <effarbee@verizon.net> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:06:34 -0600   Hello, Norman, et al: =20 I have been away from Houston for about 25 years. =20 During the late 1960s and early 1970s, First=20 Presbyterian had a fine Aeolian-Skinner organ=20 that was cloaked after the installation and=20 tonal finishing with a huge blue carpet, to keep=20 someone's wealthy feet warm in the winter season=20 (typically February), . . . so it was explained=20 to me. <grins> =20 Can you tell us a bit more about the acoustic=20 now being "in a live acoustic." First, congrats. =20 Second, how did this event get sold to the people=20 (Presbytry)? =20 F. Richard Burt =20 =20 .. The Houston Chapter of the American Guild of Organists will be = having a Members Recital of Advent and Christmas music at First = Presbyterian Church, Houston, on Monday night, November 29, at 7:00 PM. = I haven't seen a program as yet, but I'm playing the Variations on = "Adeste Fideles" by Gaston Dethier. Maybe I'll have some more = information later. =20   The organ is a large Harrison Aeolian-Skinner, restored by = Schoenstein and Company Organ Builders, in a live acoustic. All who are = within a reasonable driving distance are encouraged to come. =20   Norman Sutphin
(back) Subject: St. Mary Redcliffe From: "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:18:44 -0600     > What most Americans admire these days is something approximating to the Arthur Harrison organ at St. Mary Redcliffe, Bristol.   Any online sound clips available? Dennis Steckley Lover of Cats, Pipe Organs & 1940-65 Sewing Machines    
(back) Subject: Re: stop list competition, yet again, once more From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:21:05 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   I'll put it simply.   SOME organ builders know how to make an organ sound good anyways, and some know how to make an organ sound bad always.   I've stated before, that a baroque organ simply doesn't sound too well in an anechoic chamber, but it can sound good in buildings which are in sympathy with the aims of music making....(or is that archimorphic?)   The trick is to select the right sound for the right building, and if that means building a werkprinzip version of a T C Lewis organ, then so be it. Werkprinzip is about creating tonal DESIGN INTEGRITY. It doesn't guarantee that an organ is going to be musical when it's built and voiced by a charlatan.   As for John Compton, he REALLY studied organ sound, harmonics, tonal synthesis and ways of blending pipework; carrying out countless experiments in the process. He made a wayward method of organ building into an art-form, and I doubt that anyone has ever done it better   Is that simple enough?   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- TubaMagna@aol.com wrote:   > > In a message dated 11/26/04 5:16:00 PM, > cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk writes: > The "organ reform movement" taught us much, but > although I play a very > successful example of the genre, it is not a period > in organ-building I greatly > admire unless it is done particularly well and in > the right building....I am one > of the fortunate few. > > ...molto snippaggio... > > After all of that, I am even MORE confused. What > point ARE you trying to make?       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: St. Mary Redcliffe From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 18:42:59 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   As a matter of fact......     http://www.stmaryredcliffe.co.uk/Organ.htm   Photos, specification and an mp3 to hear.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" <kzrev@rr1.net> wrote:   > > > What most > Americans admire these days is something > approximating to the Arthur > Harrison organ at St. Mary Redcliffe, Bristol. > > Any online sound clips available? > Dennis Steckley       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo  
(back) Subject: Re: stop list competition From: "Jim McFarland" <mcfarland6@juno.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 22:08:41 -0500   Surely the trichterregal goes back more than 200 years before the work of Zajek (spelling?)     Jim       On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:27:45 -0600 "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> writes: Similarly the Trichterregal (with harmonic trebles, very baroque) was a M=F6ller invention.
(back) Subject: Re: St. Mary Redcliffe From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:14:27 -0600   Yes, fabulous isn't it? And all that out of only 74 ranks. By the way, they can't spell Lieblich.   John Speller   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> To: "PipeChat" <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 8:42 PM Subject: Re: St. Mary Redcliffe     > Hello, > > As a matter of fact...... > > > http://www.stmaryredcliffe.co.uk/Organ.htm > > Photos, specification and an mp3 to hear. > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell UK > > > --- "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" > <kzrev@rr1.net> wrote: > > > > > > What most > > Americans admire these days is something > > approximating to the Arthur > > Harrison organ at St. Mary Redcliffe, Bristol.      
(back) Subject: Re: St. Mary Redcliffe From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:07:05 -0800   Sounds like a lovely big English romantic cathedral organ in a live space ... LOVE all that 8' sound, and the Pedal Bombardes. If it sounds that good in person, I think it's a FINE Anglican organ <g>.   Cheers,   Bud   Colin Mitchell wrote:   > Hello, > > As a matter of fact...... > > > http://www.stmaryredcliffe.co.uk/Organ.htm > > Photos, specification and an mp3 to hear. > > Regards, > > Colin Mitchell UK > > > --- "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" > <kzrev@rr1.net> wrote: > > >>> What most >> >>Americans admire these days is something >>approximating to the Arthur >>Harrison organ at St. Mary Redcliffe, Bristol. >> >>Any online sound clips available? >>Dennis Steckley > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > >      
(back) Subject: Re: St. Mary Redcliffe From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:08:36 -0500   Thanks to Colin for his timely referral to the Web site of St. Mary Redcliffe. Not just the organ page, - the whole web site is full of = interest.   I only ever was in Bristol but once, and I didn't go to St. Mary = Redcliffe, - but it looks as though I should go there on my next trip back home next Summer.   Thanks once again Colin,   Bob Conway     At 09:42 PM 11/26/2004, you wrote: >Hello, > >As a matter of fact...... > > >http://www.stmaryredcliffe.co.uk/Organ.htm > >Photos, specification and an mp3 to hear. > >Regards, > >Colin Mitchell UK > > >--- "First Christian Church of Casey, IL" ><kzrev@rr1.net> wrote: > > > > > > What most > > Americans admire these days is something > > approximating to the Arthur > > Harrison organ at St. Mary Redcliffe, Bristol. > > > > Any online sound clips available? > > Dennis Steckley > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. >http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>      
(back) Subject: Re: St. Mary Redcliffe From: "bgsx" <bgsx52@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:33:04 -0500       Bob Conway wrote: > Thanks to Colin for his timely referral to the Web site of St. Mary > Redcliffe. Not just the organ page, - the whole web site is full of > interest.   Many of the links on the website ( http://www.stmaryredcliffe.co.uk/ ) do not work (it was created using MS Frontpage) The sitemap page links seems to be ok: http://www.stmaryredcliffe.co.uk/SiteMap.htm   The mp3 seems to be an mp3Pro file ... it should sound brighter and have greater clarity if you play it using an mp3Pro codec. I use this mp3/mp3Pro/Ogg etc player: http://www.un4seen.com/xmplay.html The only skin I like is the Windows Classic skin. (there seems to be a Linux player available, too).    
(back) Subject: Arthur Harrison & St. Mary Redcliffe From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:02:25 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   I've never been one to rubbish the work of Arthur Harrison; an organ builder of extraordinary calibre and integrity, who took tonal-finishing to the n'th degree of perfectionism.   Therein lies the problem.....one of over refinement.   From the ground up, every Arthur Harrison organ ever made has a quality of construction which is perhaps beyond peer, with acres of the finest timber (including mahogany face-boards), the best leather, fine felts and solid ivory draw-stops....truly an organ for an Imperial age.   What you hear at St.Mary, Redcliffe is NOT entirely pure Arthur Harrison. There have been very successful additions and alterations, including a new, large Great Mixture, a more defined pedal organ and one or two other additions. Nevertheless, the rest of the organ apart from the replaced Swell Organ (destroyed in a fire) is original and worthy of the master builder that AH was.   As accompaniment instruments, Arthur Harrison organs are splendid; offering almost every possiblty for truly sensitive and grand accompaniment to choral and congregational singing.   That said, the Arthur Harrison style is typical of the Edwardian period.....a bit of this and a bit of that, all cobbled together by a military man who dabbled in organs, namely, Lt.Col.George Dixon.   Now I used to play an organ which Arthur Harrison and Lt Col Dixon visited when they discussed proposals for a more modern style of instrument. This was an organ on one single and modest wind-pressure, with mechanical key action and a pneumatic pedal organ. It was clear, bright and thoroughly musical, but it was a world away from the later Edwardian sound, and it encapsulated all the faults which Arthur Harrison learned from Lt Col Dixon, in so much as a third manual had been added to the original....with awful results!   Although the organ of Holy Trinity, Keighley, is no longer with us, I remember it well. The Swell, Great and Pedal were what one might describe as Victorian "baroque"......noble, clear and rewarding to the ear, with a substantial bass. The Mixtures broke back too abruptly, and the Swell was a typical Victorian one, of very limited power....the Great organ dominated...hence the name. The reeds were thin and very ordinary in tonal quality, but did their job adequately.   Adding a third Choir manual ABOVE the Swell keys rather than below the Great keys, the stop-list was a very Edwardian affair, consisting (unusually) of an 8ft Claribel Flute, a 4ft Flute, a scratchy sounding Viol da Gamba at 8ft, a Harmonic Piccolo at 2ft...all unenclosed, just like a Fr Willis. THEN came three reeds enclosed in their own tiny Expression Box, consisting of a fairly poor Clarinet, an acidic Orchestral Oboe, and a disgusting Vox Humana of no musical quality whatsoever.   What fascinated me about this weird collection of stops, was the fact that I never, ever used them! The Flutes were like mini-Tibias, the string was ghastly and the solo reeds were not good examples. The tonal quality was so far removed from the rest of the organ, this Choir organ was just a waste of time, space, materials and money.   Of course, it was an early experiment....but it was never a success.   It was Lt Col George Dixon who proposed the typical Arthur Harrison stop-list we know so well. A very bright Swell, with fiery reeds....always the finest feature of any Harrison of the period...and very French in overall concept, with heavy pressure fed to the reeds.   The Great organs would always have BIG diapasons, with tons of body and sonority. The biggest of the Diapasons would almost always be leathered on the larger instruments, and on heavier pressure. The rest of the chorus work was well controlled by regulation, but up to the usual 2ft Super Octave, the sound was very fine. Put full Swell and Great to 15th together, and there is the true English Cathedral sound.   Of course, Arthur Harrison had discovered the reed voicer W C Jones and set him to work on all new organs, with fine results.   However, in the upperwork and reeds of the Great, Arthur Harrison ran into problems, just as other builders did, due to the national penchant for close-toned, heavy pressure Trombas (in effect, small Tubas). (Norman & Beard struggled with this problem, and went for brighter Trumpet tones eventually)   Whether it was an attempt to bridge the tonal divide or not, I cannot be certain, but Lt Col Dixon advised the use of the a-typical Harrison Cornet, usually of five ranks, which included the flat 21st as well as the 17th. (Composition 15.17.19.b21.22) So as to bind the flues and reeds together, these mixtures or cornets, were heavily surpressed and of very limited power. Consequently, the close-toned reeds tend to thicken up the sound considerably, with nothing other than the Swell (Quint) Mixture to counterbalance it...and usually with octave coupler drawn.   The Choir organs were usually a waste of effort, with a collection of attractive but totally isolated registers which played nothing more than a quiet accompaniment role.   The Solo organs, with their exquisite Flutes, Strings and Reeds; usually capped by a dominant Tuba on considerable wind-pressure, are fine examples always.   The Pedal organs, almost always extended, would be based on large scale Open Wood stops; often down to 32ft. This was fine, except that there is no sound worse than a 4ft, big scaled, quite heavily blown Superoctave Wood! In all but the very largest instruments, the remainder of the Pedal Organs (save for a Pedal 16ft Bourdon or Sub Bass) would be derived from manual stops, such as a 16ft Dulciana from the Choir, a 16ft Geigen from the Great, and sometimes an Echo Bourdon from the Swell.   Consequently, there was not the slightest hint of independent chorus-work to the pedal organs....but who cared at that time?   The Pedal reeds were usually duplication of the massively voiced Solo Tuba with a 16 and even 32ft extension....always labelled Ophicleides, and loud enough to scare small children at a thousand paces.   In many ways, the Arthur Harrison sound compared very favourably with that of Fr Willis and even Willis 3, and but for the reeds and mixtures, was probably better than the unusually powerful chorus work of Hill, Norman & Beard from the same period.   In fact, none of the big three companies ever achieved an ideal organ, but all of them produced instruments ideally suited to hymn and choral accompaniment, at which they excelled.   Fortunately, a number of Arthur Harrison organs ( as well as Willis and H,N & B organs) have actually got better with careful re-working of Mixture registers, added Pedal registers and some improvement to the Choir organs, and in this respect, St Mary, Redcliffe is a fine example. Most re-built Harrison have totally re-worked Great reeds; more often than not, Harmonic Trumpets.   That said, and absolute quality craftsmanship apart, other less famous builders probably achieved greater things tonally, and none more so than T C Lewis, Mitchell & Thynne, Taylor, Vincent and perhaps even Nicholson. Even J W Walker, long before they achieved fame for a number of new organs around 1955-70, were probably producing better chorus-work.   Of certain things we can be sure. Arthur Harrison organs are always wonderfully made, beautiful to play and always sound good, and in these respects, they deserve our continued admiration as the work of the premier builder for a whole musical generation.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK               --- "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> wrote:   > Yes, fabulous isn't it? And all that out of only 74 > ranks. By the way, > they can't spell Lieblich. >       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com    
(back) Subject: from an old frump From: "Fran Walker" <fwalker@northwestern.edu> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:18:29 -0800   OK, you guys, go ahead, call me an old frump, Goody-two-shoes, whatever = you want. But I am offended by "suck" as in:   From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 06:41:48 -0600 AND: From: "Keith Zimmerman" <kwzimmerman@alltel.net>   > Andy said, "Tracker organs suck!" > > No, Reed organs suck.   I hear the word "suck" enough in the "outside world" - now I have to read it PipeChat? I would truly appreciate all efforts to avoid offensive language in PipeChat.   Sincerely, Fran Walker ****************************************************** Fran Walker (fwalker@northwestern.edu) M.M., Northwestern University Organist, North Shore United Methodist Church 213 Hazel Avenue, Glencoe, IL 60022-1775 847-835-1227; fax 847-835-1243 http://www.nsumcglencoe.org/          
(back) Subject: Re: from an old frump From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:30:48 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Thank heavens we only blow organs over here in the UK.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- Fran Walker <fwalker@northwestern.edu> wrote:   > OK, you guys, go ahead, call me an old frump, > Goody-two-shoes, whatever you > want. But I am offended by "suck" as in:       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Other Bristol organs of note (nice pics) From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2004 21:34:55 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   By UK standards, Bristol has an amazing wealth of really good organs, such as the newish Rieger at the RC Cathedral Clifton, All Saint's Clifton, Colston Hall, the Cathedral etc etc.     Here for your delectation are a few pics and specs and things:-   http://www.bdoa.fsnet.co.uk/Redland%20Park%20Organ%20Console.html   http://www.bdoa.fsnet.co.uk/All%20Saints%20spec.htm   http://www.bdoa.fsnet.co.uk/St%20Mary%20Redcliffe%20Console.html   http://www.bdoa.fsnet.co.uk/Colston%20Hall%20Organ%20image.html   http://www.bdoa.fsnet.co.uk/Clifton_Cathedral_Console.html   http://www.bdoa.fsnet.co.uk/Clifton%20College%20Console.html   http://www.bdoa.fsnet.co.uk/Christchurch%20Organ%20Case%20&%20Pipes.html   http://www.bdoa.fsnet.co.uk/Bristol%20Cathedral%20Console%201.html   Hope you like them, and especially the two photographs of very old organ cases of great beauty.   Enjoy!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: from an old frump From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:59:29 -0500   At 12:30 AM 11/27/2004, Colin wrote: >Hello, > >Thank heavens we only blow organs over here in the UK.   Er, Yes, - but that has a rather different connotation on this side of the =   pond, Colin! Unless you mean it, I would suggest that you re-phrase that little gem!   Bob Conway      
(back) Subject: Prepare Thyself, Zion - Bach From: <ProOrgo53@aol.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 00:59:39 EST   If anyone knows of an organ transcription of the (contr)alto aria, = "Prepare Thyself, Zion" from the Christmas oratorio by J. S. Bach, please contact = me directly. Thank you.   Dale Rider Independence, MO USA  
(back) Subject: RE: stop list competition From: "alantaylor1" <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 09:02:47 -0000   Sorry Colin. No pictures.   Alan   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Colin Mitchell Sent: 27 November 2004 01:51 To: PipeChat Subject: RE: stop list competition   Hello,   Could Alan send us a photograph of that?   Amazing!   ;-)   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- alantaylor1 <alantaylor1@members.v21.co.uk> wrote:   > At Lourdes, in France, the congregations of many > thousands are held with > manual double doubles (32ft) not 2ft's.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail   ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>     --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 26/11/2004   --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 26/11/2004