PipeChat Digest #4940 - Sunday, November 28, 2004
 
Re: A multi facited question
  by "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net>
Re: A Little Humor at church this morning
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: this organ
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
a multi-faceted question
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
upperwork
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
RE: this organ
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Texts on organ design...which are credible?
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Let's get the facts straight
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
RE: Kippers and custard!
  by "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca>
Re: Texts on organ design...which are credible?
  by "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com>
Mixtures
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Credibility of Organ-related texts
  by <TubaMagna@aol.com>
RE: Credibility of Organ-related texts
  by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz>
Re: Kippers and custard!
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
Re: Mixtures
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
 

(back) Subject: Re: A multi facited question From: "John L. Speller" <jlspeller@swbell.net> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:13:06 -0600   I think Jim and I are talking about slightly different periods here. =20   Jim is talking of the period before c. 1850, when short compass swells = were the norm. Certainly at this point it was normal for the Swell to = stop at, say, Tenor F, and for there to be a "Choir Bass" cosisting of a = stop or two that went all the way to the bottom of the keyboard. Thus a = "Stopped Diapason Bass" might serve as the bass for the Open Diapason, = Stopped Diapason and Dulciana. Later in the century the tendency was to = "groove" the 8 ft. stops together, so that the Stopped Diapason = automatically played the Dulciana, etc. Jim is certainly correct about = this.   I was really talking about a later period, say, on an 1885 Roosevelt. = Here the 16 ft. Bourdon or 8 ft. Oboe might have a separate knob for the = lowest octave. This was, I would still claim, so that this octave could = be used separately on the pedal.   So I think in our ways Jim and I are both right.   John Speller=20   ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jim McFarland=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Cc: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:49 PM Subject: Re: A multi facited question       John and List:   Please don't be angry with me, John, but for the fourth time in three = days I am going to disagree with you. ( I usually wholeheartedly agree = with you, so perhaps I should examine my spiritual condition.)   Numerous New York and New England instruments from the early and mid = 1800's had "offset chests" some times referred to as choir basses = (presumably because they occupied the choir position within the case.)   These bass chests would contain some 8 and sometimes 4 foot basses to = complete the short compass swell ranks that were in the box, usually = tenor c or tenor f.   The extra knob to draw these was ( I assume ) a matter of it being = easier to construct and operate the stop actions. Why the practice = continued after the bass chests disappeared, I can only speculate. = Perhaps organists had found other uses (as suggested in some of the = responses - such as John's), or organ builders wanted the stoplists to = reflect that these were not short compass ranks?   I am interested in seeing other responses, as this is a subject that = often tickles the nether regions of my brain. (At my age, massive = regions of my brain have crossed over into the netherworld.     Jim       On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:33:09 -0600 "John L. Speller" = <jlspeller@swbell.net> writes: On Victorian trackers there would not normally be offset chests, = although sometimes the bass octave of, say, the Swell 16 ft. Bourdon = might be tubed off and placed outside the swellbox. This would not, = however, require the stop to be split. Probably the main reason for = having the lowest octave only drawing as a separate stop was to enable = it to be played on the Pedal without it playing on most of the manual. = These were the days, remember, when the right foot sat more or less = fixed permanently to the swell pedal and the left foot danced about = mostly in the lowest octave of the pedal.   John Speller=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RonSeverin@aol.com=20 To: pipechat@pipechat.org=20 Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:02 PM Subject: Re: A multi facited question     One of the strangest at least to me was to provide the Oboe 8' from tenor C 49 which made no sense or split 12 Basson and 49 Oboe. I would like to explore opinions = form both sides of the aisle Builders and organists as to why you think = this technique was considered and used. Could offset chests be the = culprit?
(back) Subject: Re: A Little Humor at church this morning From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:24:39 -0500   On 11/28/04 2:29 PM, "LBoekeloo" <lboekeloo@triton.net> wrote:   > noticing a Christmas Tree on the chancel with a gazillion electrical = extension   Well, at this time of year, I think that's what's called a Hanukkah bush. Christmas trees come about month from now.   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: this organ From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:25:11 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Being a 16ft harmonic, I wonder what use a 2.2/3ft Twelfth is, in a chorus without a 16ft open metal double?   Also, there is no such thing as a "Victorian" ideal. There are huge differences between the virtual string choruses of Willis, the straight-line Schulze inspired choruses of T C Lewis (I seem to recall that he baulked slightly at pure straight-line) and the more refined style of Hill.   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- RonSeverin@aol.com wrote: > As I see it, > voicing will > steadily return to a more Victorian, Cathedral like > ideal. Scales will > Will return to more reasonable sizes and T.C. Lewis > style choruses > will reign again.       __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: a multi-faceted question From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:37:36 -0800   It is indeed very useful to be able to draw "Gt. Bourdon Bass" along with the Gt/Ped coupler and have a softer 16' stop play in the bottom octave of the Pedals ... one Koehnken & Grimm in Cincinnati (now cobbled and gone) had only a massive 16' Open Wood in the Pedal; the Great Bourdon offered a softer alternative.   Of course, playing up an octave on the Gt. with the whole Bourdon drawn also creates a delightful sound, quite different from the equally attractive 8' Melodia. 16' Bourdon + 8' Dulciana played up an octave was my favorite chant accompaniment combination.   As to Unison Basses for 8' stops (I don't think I've ever seen one for 4' stops), I think they are as John says ... a space and money saving device as the Swell evolved from short compass to full compass. I suppose an Oboe or Trumpet bass would have some usefulness as a one-octave pedal stop.   In another (extant) Koehnken and Grimm, the Oboe and the equally loud and forthright Vox Humana (!) shared a common "Bassoon" Bass. I would assume that was to save space and money. The big Vox was great fun for French baroque music.   Cheers,   Bud   John L. Speller wrote:   > I think Jim and I are talking about slightly different periods here. > > Jim is talking of the period before c. 1850, when short compass swells > were the norm. Certainly at this point it was normal for the Swell to > stop at, say, Tenor F, and for there to be a "Choir Bass" cosisting of a =   > stop or two that went all the way to the bottom of the keyboard. Thus a =   > "Stopped Diapason Bass" might serve as the bass for the Open Diapason, > Stopped Diapason and Dulciana. Later in the century the tendency was to =   > "groove" the 8 ft. stops together, so that the Stopped Diapason > automatically played the Dulciana, etc. Jim is certainly correct about > this. > > I was really talking about a later period, say, on an 1885 Roosevelt. > Here the 16 ft. Bourdon or 8 ft. Oboe might have a separate knob for the =   > lowest octave. This was, I would still claim, so that this octave could =   > be used separately on the pedal. > > So I think in our ways Jim and I are both right. > > John Speller > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jim McFarland <mailto:mcfarland6@juno.com> > To: pipechat@pipechat.org <mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org> > Cc: pipechat@pipechat.org <mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:49 PM > Subject: Re: A multi facited question > > > John and List: > > Please don't be angry with me, John, but for the fourth time in > three days I am going to disagree with you. ( I usually > wholeheartedly agree with you, so perhaps I should examine my > spiritual condition.) > > Numerous New York and New England instruments from the early and mid > 1800's had "offset chests" some times referred to as choir basses > (presumably because they occupied the choir position within the = case.) > > These bass chests would contain some 8 and sometimes 4 foot basses > to complete the short compass swell ranks that were in the box, > usually tenor c or tenor f. > > The extra knob to draw these was ( I assume ) a matter of it being > easier to construct and operate the stop actions. Why the practice > continued after the bass chests disappeared, I can only speculate. > Perhaps organists had found other uses (as suggested in some of the > responses - such as John's), or organ builders wanted the stoplists > to reflect that these were not short compass ranks? > > I am interested in seeing other responses, as this is a subject that > often tickles the nether regions of my brain. (At my age, massive > regions of my brain have crossed over into the netherworld. > > > Jim > > > > On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:33:09 -0600 "John L. Speller" > <jlspeller@swbell.net <mailto:jlspeller@swbell.net>> writes: > > On Victorian trackers there would not normally be offset chests, > although sometimes the bass octave of, say, the Swell 16 ft. > Bourdon might be tubed off and placed outside the swellbox. > This would not, however, require the stop to be split. Probably > the main reason for having the lowest octave only drawing as a > separate stop was to enable it to be played on the Pedal without > it playing on most of the manual. These were the days, > remember, when the right foot sat more or less fixed > permanently to the swell pedal and the left foot danced about > mostly in the lowest octave of the pedal. > > John Speller > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: RonSeverin@aol.com <mailto:RonSeverin@aol.com> > To: pipechat@pipechat.org <mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org> > Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:02 PM > Subject: Re: A multi facited question > > One of the strangest at least to me > was to provide the Oboe 8' from tenor C 49 which made no = sense > or split 12 Basson and 49 Oboe. I would like to explore > opinions form > both sides of the aisle Builders and organists as to why you > think this > technique was considered and used. Could offset chests be > the culprit?      
(back) Subject: upperwork From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:39:45 +1300   There might be some interest in the rebuild of an organ I was consultant = for back in 1972. This is the 3m Croft organ in All Saints' Anglican, = Palmerston North, here in New Zealand. The organ dates from the late 1920s and is = much better-toned than might imagined, for that date. The chests are very good slider chests. Some bigger stops actually have two sliders for them. Here = is what the Great used to be - GREAT 16 Double Open Diapason (open metal to CCC) 8 Open Diapason 1 8 Open Diapason 2 8 Hohl Flute (open metal) 8 Dolce (nondescript Dulciana to CC) 4 Octave 4 Harmonic Flute . Mixture (12.15) 2rks 8 Tromba   For a 950-seat church with the roof not very high and thus very dead acoustics, that was not very good at all.   the GREAT is now this -   16 Bourdon (ex Swell) 8 Open Diapason 1 8 Open Diapason 2 8 Hohl Flute 4 Octave 4 Nason (extn 16ft) 2 2/3 Twelfth (from old Mixture) 2 Fifteenth (from old Mixture) 1 3/5 17th (new) . Mixture II (19.22) (new) . Mixture II (26.29) (new) 8 Trumpet (new) 4 Clarion (new, extn 8ft)   With the chest the way I have described, the only register not on the = slider chest is the Trumpet, and that took the place of the honky old Tromba = which was already duplexed to the Choir.   Full Great is very grand indeed, and both OpDiaps can be used together. = For a smaller chorus, you can use OpDiap1, 4 Oct, 12th and 15th + (19.22) Mixture. For an entirely different chorus, one which is a superb match for the swell diapason chorus, use OpDiap2, 4 Oct, 15th and (26.29). Any other kind of combination works equally well, and the 17th can be added at will, anywhere, to change the colour again. If the Mixtures had been only = useable as one large 4rk thingie, the organ would not be anywhere near as = versatile. This was the first organ in NZ, ever, to have two Quint Mixtures on the Great.   Even now, I find it amazing that this is not more often done, in rebuilds = or in new organs.   The old SwBdn 16ft now on the Great, by the way, is a smallish-scaled wonderfully-colourful stopt wood rank, and it is a most useful stop in contrast with the old 16ft open metal which was far too big and is now = only on the Pedal. The new 4ft Nason extension is just exactly right - clear, bright, blending, not too loud.   It's now 32years since I drew up the rebuild design and I wouldn't change = a thing and I'm not aware of anyone else wanting to, either.   Ross    
(back) Subject: RE: this organ From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:47:28 +1300   >Being a 16ft harmonic, I wonder what use a 2.2/3ft Twelfth is, in a chorus without a 16ft open metal double?   Yes, a 12th often is quite bad when added to an 8ft chorus. It used to be the custom, when adding to a Great of, say, 8 8 8 4 4, to add a 12th and 15th. On one organ restoration and enlargement I supervised, a Wadsworth = of 1909, I had added a 15th and 19th instead.   >Also, there is no such thing as a "Victorian" ideal. There are huge differences between the virtual string choruses of Willis, the straight-line Schulze inspired choruses of T C Lewis (I seem to recall that he baulked slightly at pure straight-line) and the more refined style of Hill.   So very true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Not having had the emotional thing of been brought up in the UK, it was a shock to me to hear just how awful the chorus diapasons of revered Willis organs really are. Too, I couldn't believe how effete a lot of Harrison choruses were.   On the other hand, Lewis ..... aaahh!   And I've also played some pre-1880 J.W.Walkers with very fine Diapason choruses, and then there are wonderful Diapasons, too, on Bevington = organs. One Walker I can think of, a 2m of about 20 stops, has a 3rk Clarion = Mixture of 3rks on the Great instead of a Clarion 4ft. The organ already has a slightly-more-restrained 3rk on the Great. When the Clarion Mixture is added, without the reed, there is a glorious blaze of sound, without a = trace of nastiness or harshness.   Drool drool drool.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Texts on organ design...which are credible? From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:48:18 -0800 (PST)   Sebastian mentioned the credibility of the "Stevens" book. There are of = course other texts out there. Which are good and credible primers? TDH   --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
(back) Subject: Let's get the facts straight From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:49:18 EST   In a message dated 11/28/04 5:25:54 PM, cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk (Colin Mitchell) writes:   "Being a 16ft harmonic, I wonder what use a 2.2/3ft Twelfth is, in a = chorus without a 16ft open metal double? Regards, Colin Mitchell UK."   THINK. The 2-2/3' Twelfth is the twelfth to the unison. In a stopped = flute, it is the first available partial after the fundamental. The 2-2/3' pitch = is the NINETEENTH in the 16' series!!! Convert it to an improper fraction -- = 8/3 -- and you will see that it represents the third harmonic of the 8' series.   For a review and chart, see "Pitches, Harmonics, and Fractions." The = American Organist, Volume 37, Number 2 (DECEMBER 2002), Page 60.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City   ..  
(back) Subject: RE: Kippers and custard! From: "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:51:13 -0500   At 05:13 PM 11/28/2004, Colin wrote: >Hello, > >I suppose it's a 60/70's hangover, but J W Walker >added a simply dreadful 3 rks Mixture to the largely >Arthur Harrison organ of Halifax PC here in the UK, >and it simply sits unhappily on the >foundations......like a kipper floating on custard.   Colin always has a clever turn of phrase!   I knew that Yorkshire folk were partial to kippers and jam, - but I have never heard of kippers and custard before. The whole idea seems far removed from organ sound, - however, Colin usually knows where-of he speaks, - maybe he can give us all an idea of what kippers and custard actually tastes like!   I expect that it is a Yorkshire delicacy, like mushy peas, or kippers and jam, - although everybody likes Yorkshire Pudding with their roast beef!   Cheers,   Bob Conway    
(back) Subject: Re: Texts on organ design...which are credible? From: "David Scribner" <david@blackiris.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:04:51 -0600   At 2:48 PM -0800 11/28/04, T.Desiree' Hines wrote: >Sebastian mentioned the credibility of the=20 >"Stevens" book. There are of course other texts=20 >out there. Which are good and credible primers? >   Desire=B4   If you read my previous post in reply to you=20 about the AIO Bibliography I think you can figure=20 that any of the books listed in that are good and=20 credible primers. That list is drawn up by the=20 Certification/Examination Committee of the AIO=20 all of whom are very well respected and=20 knowledgeable organ builders, one of whom is on=20 this list. Maybe he would comment some more on=20 this subject   David  
(back) Subject: Mixtures From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:05:08 EST   Colin Mitchell and Ron Severin both have mentioned that mixtures don't = need to screech and be high pitched. I agree 100%. In the new organ for my church, the highest pitched mixture is based on a 1' pitch. Francesco = and I talked about the mixture compositions, and how I wanted them to be low = pitched based on the fact that it's going to be a heavily 8' based organ and that = the choruses will have plenty of harmonic build up in them, so I wanted the = mixture work to just cap things off--not be anything to obliterate foundations, = just to enhance. The mixtures at the Church of the Epiphany in Miami, FL certainly do this--while higher pitched than my organ's mixtures will be, are silvery = and are gentle in nature. They work with soft foundations or can cap the full = ensemble. Where we got the idea that mixtures had to peel the paint off the walls = and crack the windows, I don't know, but it's definitely not a pleasant sonic =   experience. There is a Kney organ that I play fairly frequently that has some of the most silvery chorus work with the nicest mixtures here in South Carolina. = The II Scharff in the Swell is a little assertive at the console (since it is = in Brustwerk position) but in the room, it just crowns everything off with a gentle sparkle. The Great III Fourniture adds a silvery edge to the 8, = 4, 2 Principal chorus with just a gentle bite. On the other hand, I have played some organs (including the one at my church) that have some mixtures that are basically unusable. The = Antiphonal IV Fourniture at my church is so strong that it will take off the heads of = the people sitting in the balcony and if it is on, it takes over the whole = Antiphonal division. It is pitched at 1 1/3' but between the breaks, scaling and = the sheer volume, it is useless unless I use the Sub-Coupler, and then it is = not as offensive. when it's at 2 2/3'. That stop is not voiced to the rest = of the division or the rest of the organ, for that matter. As Colin mentioned = in one of his posts, it is similar to how a neo-baroque mixture doesn't fit = with a romantic instrument. Generally, the organ at my church is rather thick = and dark, but yet this mixture is a "screamer." Polar opposites in style. Mixtures have their place, but when a chorus is voiced properly, the mixtures don't have to be voiced up so much and the high pitches don't = need to be exaggerated to the extremes. Look at how many French organs were built = without them or with only one mixture. The choruses had enough harmonics in them =   and the reeds carried the rest of the harmonic build up. The historic = German organs were warm, nothing like we knew from the 60's and 70's when we = became "informed". (although I was only just born at that time--and I was = growing up in the shadow of some wonderful Aeolian-Skinner and Murray Harris instruments, so didn't get too tainted by the organ reform movement) I'm = glad to see that the penduluum is swinging back to a more moderate type of tonal = ideal and not the extreme, although I'm not all that opposed to a symphonic type of =   instrument! Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Credibility of Organ-related texts From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 18:49:55 EST   Credibility is a separate issue from bias when it comes to building a library of texts about the history and design of pipe organs. Certainly, the Stevens Irwin "Dictionary of Pipe Organ Stops" sold = many tens of thousands of copies based upon its very promising title, which = appealed to every segment of the "organ population," scholars and nerds alike. It = was completely non-authoritative, full of errors, and fleshed out with fantasy =   fabrications, but it was the only one of its kind at the time, and by = golly, it was a BOOK, so it MUST be right. Practically every definition in there = screams of a childish fascination, with cursory knowledge, but little serious = research. But let us assume that most texts are actually full of facts. What about bias? If the work was published in the 1950s through 1970s, and has a title like, "The True and Valid Organ for Modern Civilization," or was written = by a Dane or a German and is called, "The New Organ for the Future of Man," you = can bet that there will be no mention of Thomas Lewis, harmonic flutes, Elias = Hook, pneumatic actions, Wilhelm Sauer, equal temperament, Joseph Merklin, = string stops, or expression shutters. Now, if you choose to read such a book, then put it into its = historical context of rabid, rigid conservatism further hampered by blinders. You = will still learn something, but you will only be getting part of the picture, = viewed through a very narrow slot (I'm not goading the string voicers here...) Klotz and Donahue, served up by prescription to many students, are heavily biased. Recent, specialized texts, in which particular organ cultures are = studied by focusing on specific periods in individual countries, are certainly the =   most informative. These works put the organ and its design in perspective = by no just dealing with the organ's relationship to the music, but to historical =   events and cultural phenomena of the era. Examples are Stephen Bicknell's = "The History of the English Organ," Fenner Douglass' "The Language of the = Classical French Organ," Orhpa Ochse's "The History of the Organ in the United = States," Homer Blanchard's, "The Bach Organ Book," Gustav Fock's "Hamburg's Role in =   North European Organ Building," and many others of this nature. These texts discuss the organ as it was, not as they believe it SHOULD = be -- a big difference. There are some general histories, like Peter = Williams' "The European Organ 1450-1850," but keep in mind that these are survey = texts, so the instruments presented are exceptional examples and may not reflect = what the average church musician encountered. THE MUSIC IS YOUR GUIDE TO DESIGNING A STOPLIST. If the music cannot be played because you've put the wrong stops in = the wrong divisions at the wrong pitches, you have done a damaging disservice = to the instrument and its literature that may stay in place for generations, = due to the nature of how often organs are built or revised. Denying musicians the ability to perform great music is NOT "creative license." There are many thousands of organ history books out there, four = centu ries of them in every language. A bibliography? Start with the basics, = using recent, balanced scholarship as your guide. You should know which periods = of history were the least enlightened or the most rigidly exclusionary, and = factor that in to your reading choices as well as your evaluations of what you = end up reading.   Sebastian M. Gluck New York City   ..  
(back) Subject: RE: Credibility of Organ-related texts From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:05:28 +1300   > Certainly, the Stevens Irwin "Dictionary of Pipe Organ Stops" sold = many   tens of thousands of copies based upon its very promising title, which appealed to every segment of the "organ population," scholars and nerds alike. It = was   completely non-authoritative, full of errors, and fleshed out with fantasy =   fabrications, but it was the only one of its kind at the time, and by = golly, it was a BOOK, so it MUST be right. Practically every definition in there screams of a childish fascination, with cursory knowledge, but little serious research.   I get the feeling, too, when reading older books about organ stops, like Audsley, Bonavia-Hunt, Wedgwood et al., that 'twas ever thus, the writers very obviously having an agenda (or "agendum" if you prefer the word!) = they want to put across. It's always the fault, of course, of every generation = to believe that it is better-informed, less-biassed, more sound, more = sensible, than anything preceding it.   Having said that, I very much agree that some writers do considerably = better than some others in not pushing their own barrows.   Ross    
(back) Subject: Re: Kippers and custard! From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 19:20:15 -0500   On 11/28/04 5:51 PM, "Bob Conway" <conwayb@sympatico.ca> wrote:   > although everybody likes Yorkshire Pudding with [his] roast beef!   Put me on THAT list, ANY TIME YOU WANT!   Alan    
(back) Subject: Re: Mixtures From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2004 17:28:42 -0800 (PST)   Hello,   Just a very quick point which is often overlooked.   In a large European church, which houses for example, a Schnitger organ, the reason for the abundance of high-pitched Mixtures is that of maintaining balance, because the lower frequencies get amplified by the huge space.   It always astonishes me how, in such circumstances, even Cimbels and Carillon Mixtures, just seem so right, and yet in any other building, they become unpleasant unless very heavily surpressed by the voicer. In the latter example, that means that there was never a need for them in the first place!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- RMB10@aol.com wrote:   > Colin Mitchell and Ron Severin both have mentioned > that mixtures don't need > to screech and be high pitched. I agree 100%.   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com