PipeChat Digest #4942 - Monday, November 29, 2004 Advent wreath wrecks by "Charles Peery" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: broken record, here by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Funny moments by "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: broken record, here by "Nathan Smith" <email@example.com> Re: broken record, here by "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: stop list competition by "alantaylor1" <email@example.com> Felix Hell at Westborough, MA The Evangelical Congregational Church by "mack02445" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: A multi-fac(E)ted question by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Gregorian Chant by "Paul R. Swank" <email@example.com> RE: A multi facited question by "Daniel Hancock" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: Kippers and custard! by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> RE: from an old frump by "Daniel Hancock" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: broken record, here by "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Re: Gregorian Chant by "F. Richard Burt" <email@example.com> one-footed village organists by "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> RE: broken record, here by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> RE: from an old frump by "Andy Lawrence" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: Advent wreath wrecks From: "Charles Peery" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:59:25 -0500 In our contemporary service, it was decided that just prior to worship they would just draft stalwart attendees to do the four short readings leading up to the lighting of the first Advent Candle. (At the traditional services it's usually done by families, charted out -- literally -- for four weeks and the Christmas Eve services.) I guess the people were willing but not too sure of the details, for each one the four of them dutifully did a reading and then marched up and lit a candle. The clergy's eyes got wider and wider, jaws dropping further and further. All four candles blazed away the whole service. I guess somebody would have been bent out of shape if the candles weren't fuel candles, which don't actually burn down visibly. No harm done, I guess, but my grandmother would say "I swan, those people got NO fetchins-up." Chuck Peery St. Louis
(back) Subject: RE: broken record, here From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 04:18:13 -0800 (PST) Hello, I have a very beautiful book about the Alkmaar Schnitger, but as it's written in Dutch-speak, I have had a little difficulty trying to extract the information to hand. The 8ft Praestant on the Hoofdwerk of the Alkmaar "Schnitger" is, from what I can gather, a Hagabeer stop! Now regarding scaling, there is a bit of wild-card here, because we have to remember that the PITCH was about three-quarters of a tone higher than current pitch, which shoves the scaling up somewhat from what Ross suggests. In fact, I would have to guess that the scale moves up to about 6.25 inches diameter pitch-for-pitch, which is getting towards pretty large scale. Regarding wind pressure, something is very wrong. Schnitger would never have been able, let alone willing, to achieve such a relatively high pressure. The Alkmaar book doesn't give details of wind pressures, but every other Schnitger seems to speak on about 2.5 inches, and I doubt that there will be much variation at Alkmaar, even though the organ is the work of F C Schnitger rather than Arp Schnitger. The Arp Schnitger organ of the Aa-kerk in Groningen, uses 2.5 inches of wind throughout. In other words, the wind pressure will probably be almost HALF that of the lightly blown Wurlitzer Diapason rank Ross mentions. However, the REAL truth is to be found in Ross's comment concerning voicing and mouth treatment. For a start, Wurlitzer closed up the feet of the pipes considerably, and dissipated the energy at the top lip with quite deep nicking. Usually, the top lip would be leathered and I would assume that the cut up would be a good deal higher than anything which might be found at Alkmaar. The materials used would also be very different. Wurlitzer Diapasons are made from, if I recall correctly, rolled zinc. Although the use of pure tin in baroque organs is greatly exaggerated very often, we can be sure that the pipework at Alkmaar is tin-rich; though I haven't found any specific mention of it in anything I have to hand. However, in the Dutch-speak Alkmaar book, specific mention is made of "Engels tin" where this seems to apply to a particular rank, and the 8ft Praestant does not have this tag applied by the writer. I would 'presume' that the mouth widths would be very different, with the Wurlitzer pipes having relatively narrow mouths as compared to Schnitger pipes. The cut-ups on old baroque organs were often around the 2/7th mark and voiced fairly "quick," whereas anything on a relatively high-pressure, with EP action, needs to be set much slower. Sorry to blow the comparison of Wurlitzer and Schnitger "diapasons" apart, but we are really talking chalk & cheese. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK Compare this to open foot voicing, little or no nicking in the baroque period, low cut ups and quite generous mouth widths. However, I CAN tell Ross and others, that the Alkmaar organ is neither too loud nor too bright....in fact, it is quite a gentle, singing sort of sound with a very rich pleno. --- TheShieling <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > I had fun some years ago. I took a friend to see a > WurliTzer from the 1920s > in a large school assembly hall. The fellow tried > the Open Diapason and > pronounced it useless for ordinary music as it was > evidently of huge scale > and on very high pressure. I proved to him the Open > Diapason was only 6" > scale at CC, and that the Main of that WurliTzer was > on just 4.45" pressure. > In other words, exactly the same as that 8ft > Principal on the Great at St > Laurens Alkmaar!! Voicing, and the appropriate > mouth parts, were all that > made the difference. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
(back) Subject: Funny moments From: "bobelms" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:35:11 +0800 In my 70+ years at the organ, and being from the household of a Minister, = I have seen a few unusual happenings in services. During the prayers (Methodist Church so one prayer was LONG) the Minister had the habit of rocking backwards and forwards from one foot to the = other. One Sunday by the end of the prayer he (eyes fast closed of course, being Methodist!) had rocked enough to turn right around and be facing the back = wall of the church. I was one of about 40 children in the choir and we waited with bated breath to see what would happen when he opened his eyes. = We were not disappointed; he looked quickly from side to side and then summing up the situation turned swiftly around.Noone cracked a smile. In one service recently when I was visiting a distant town in my state, there was a children's address given by a lady who brought in two young rabbits to illustrate her talk. She let the kids pat them but one let his rabbit go and it careered round the church with the whole Sunday School after it. It was finally caught and the service proceeded on to the offering. On the way back to the sanctuary with the plate one of the = elderly stewards dropped the plate and coins rolled in all directions. Order was restored and the money picked up and on we went again. The organist = (playing a piano) was over 90 years of age and very deaf. Several times when the Minister paused for breath she started on the next hymn and the minister = had to lean over and say, "Not yet, Mrs X." At the end of the service the Minister whom I knew very well, as he shook hands, said to me "That is = not what usually happens in our services." I was playing for a service for my father, the Minister, in an outback goldfields town in this state. The service was in a galvanised iron hall with an ancient piano and a canvas folding chair for the pianist (me). The = chair was most comfortable and the day was warm .......and the sermon was not short ........ they woke me for the last hymn. There are sometimes unusual happenings at weddings. In one for which I played a bridesmaid fainted and fell flat on her back completely unconscious. She revived and was allowed to sit in a pew while the = ceremony continued. In another the groom threw up over the priest. Not nice, and he = had not been drinking! In yet another the bride burst into tears and had = to be taken to the vestry till she recovered. In another wedding in a tiny church in a small wheat growing town the bride and groom, both at least in = their thirties and both rather hillbilly in appearance and manner, kept poking each other in the ribs and giggling. Whether that was because of = past joys or the joys yet to come I know not. I was playing for a funeral. The coffin had been brought in by the undertaker's men, and the service proceeded. The service ended and = everybody waited for something to happen. It did not. No action. It turned out that the undertaker's men had taken the opportunity to go down to the corner = cafe and have a cuppa. The undertaker had to do a sprint down there to get = them. The exit of the coffin was delayed at least five minutes.That was not = funny and as Secretary of that Church I wrote a letter of complaint to the Undertaker. Bob Elms.
(back) Subject: Re: broken record, here From: "Nathan Smith" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:54:39 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) >>I remember playing a Cole and Woodbury (Woodberry?) somewhere in Connecticut in an RC Church <<=0D =0D Hi all,=0D =0D Could this be the Cole and Woodberry at Most Holy Trinity in Wallingford, CT? Even though it has been modified, and (gulp) nuked, the remaining pipework is still phenomenal on it. The building possesses spectacular acoustics with many, many seconds of reverberation. By the w= ay, the organ also has one of the finest Melodia ranks I have heard yet. Wha= t ever did happen to the poor Melodia in organ building. =0D =0D )C:=0D =0D - Nate
(back) Subject: Re: broken record, here From: "Liquescent" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 05:17:04 -0800 I THINK the organ in question remains a tracker in original condition .... I'll ask my friend at Yale ... he was organist there at one time. Cheers, Bud Nathan Smith wrote: > >>I remember playing a Cole and Woodbury (Woodberry?) somewhere in > Connecticut in an RC Church << > > Hi all, > > Could this be the Cole and Woodberry at Most Holy Trinity in > Wallingford, CT? Even though it has been modified, and (gulp) nuked, > the remaining pipework is still phenomenal on it. The > building possesses spectacular acoustics with many, many seconds of > reverberation. By the way, the organ also has one of the finest Melodia = > ranks I have heard yet. What ever did happen to the poor Melodia in > organ building. > > )C: > > - Nate > > > <http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=3D54475>
(back) Subject: RE: stop list competition From: "alantaylor1" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:22:15 -0000 Now I have time, I will add a bit more to my posting. I have an organist friend in London (Duncan Middleton) He is the organist = at the French Church (Notre Dame) off Leicester Square, London. Both he and = the organ in Notre Dame are well worth a visit when coming to London. From time to time he travels to Lourdes. The priest organist of Lourdes is always very pleased to see him. Especially as he has to play for 7 to 8 Masses per day, 7 days a week. Duncan therefore plays Masses for him. He tells me that it isn't mixtures = or loud reeds that hold the thousands of people singing at the Masses. It is the 32ft on the manuals. The Lourdes organs are not heard at recitals ever. Their wouldn't be the time to have recitals. I will ask Duncan if he has specifications of the organs and will post them here. Alan Taylor London -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of alantaylor1 Sent: 27 November 2004 09:03 To: 'PipeChat' Subject: RE: stop list competition Sorry Colin. No pictures. Alan -----Original Message----- From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of Colin Mitchell Sent: 27 November 2004 01:51 To: PipeChat Subject: RE: stop list competition Hello, Could Alan send us a photograph of that? Amazing! ;-) Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- alantaylor1 <email@example.com> wrote: > At Lourdes, in France, the congregations of many > thousands are held with > manual double doubles (32ft) not 2ft's. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 26/11/2004
(back) Subject: Felix Hell at Westborough, MA The Evangelical Congregational Church From: "mack02445" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:43:40 -0500 Westboro, Massachusetts is about an hours drive from Boston, so on this stormy day I went to hear Felix play the dedication concert for a new, Allen Renaissance Quantum 58 stop, 232 voice 3 manual instrument. The first half of the program was, Fantasy & Fugue in g minor, BWV542, "Nun komm der Heiden Heiland", BWV659, Fantasy in f minor, KV608, Mozart, Choralfantasy "Wie schonen leuchtet der Morgenstern", Buxtehude, and Sonata No. 4 B-flat Major, op.65, Mendelssohn. These were beautifully played with all the scholarship and artistic feeling I find so evident in this young mans playing. The appreciative audience of about 500 people also seemed to agree with me. The second half of the program was, "Gelobet seist du, Jesu Christ", BWV 732, 604 & 722, Adagio for Strings, Barber, arr. Strickland, Sonata No.1 d minor, op 42, Guilmant. For an encore Felix played the last two movements of the Widor 5th Symphony. Again Felix played everything with his usual sensitivity and flair, I find the more I hear him play the Barber, the more I like this transcription and Felix does it more than justice. He received a standing ovation at the end from a very appreciative audience. Those of you who know me, know my views on Digital instruments, I am not opening the festering war so often on the lists by my remarks, but, I have to admit that there have been great strides in the development of these instruments, this instrument being the first of this model to be installed in New England. I cannot say I will seek out more concerts on these types of instruments, but will always try to stay open to well thought out programs and registrations as was heard in Westborough today. Bravo Felix. Cheers, Mack
(back) Subject: Re: A multi-fac(E)ted question From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:45:45 EST If one actually takes the time to look at 19th century American = organs, one can see that C1 through B12 of the Swell 16' stopped wooden flute = often was placed outside the expression enclosure, sometimes against the outside = back wall of the box, facing the rear window, if a gallery installation. In = other instances, it was placed within the enclosure, on a separate chest at the = rear, with a dedicated set of 12 tracker runs just to that set of pipes -- even = if the bass octave did NOT play under the control of a separate knob. This practice conserved space on the soundboard, and may have also enabled the organbuilder to place a "lung," or winker-type device, on that = separate offset chest. The additional tracker runs to these bottom octaves cause = the action to be heavy, but at the time, it was the only way to achieve the = goal. I have seen separately drawn Bourdon basses with their own sliders = within the soundboard, then tubed off to a toeboard either within, or without, = the expression box. It seems unlikely that any of this was done with the express purpose = of having a couplable, 12-note "Lieblich" bass available. Why? It is not a = borrow action, but a transference of note action, and simply prevents the use of = the Swell division if that's all you want in the Pedal. Sebastian M. Gluck New York City ..
(back) Subject: Gregorian Chant From: "Paul R. Swank" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:03:40 -0500 Here's a web site that seems to have quite a lot about Gregorian Chant. <http://silverstone.princeton.edu/chant_html/> Paul R. Swank Baltimore, MD USA
(back) Subject: RE: A multi facited question From: "Daniel Hancock" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:11:17 -0600 These were the days, remember, when the right foot sat more or less fixed permanently to the swell pedal and the left foot danced about mostly in the lowest octave of the pedal. =20 John Speller=20 =20 Surely this is an over-generalization! =20 Daniel Hancock
(back) Subject: RE: Kippers and custard! From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:16:43 -0800 (PST) Hello, As we approach Christmas and the thought of 'Food, glorious food!' I thought the 'kippers and custard' phrase deserved further elaboration. Kippers are, of course, oak-smoked herrings, and part of the traditional Scottish diet. Here is a splendid poem on the subject of custard:- The Duke's Delight or Custard Swinging While listening to lute or flute The duke liked custard well with fruit. He put it on his cake and then Once eaten put more on again. He pondered whether, wondering, One could not custard everything. First he tried what pleased him most And dollopped glops upon his toast. Then thrilled with that he went berserk And sought to find what else would work. Though some things fared not quite so well One food and then another fell 'Till, once cause for anticipation, Dinner engendered consternation. Kippers in custard one would find Then custard with mustard crossed his mind. To pleas he just would not relent Custard defiled each condiment. The household gagged as meals grew stranger. All edibles were fraught with danger. But once did he yield to pleas and that When forcing custard on the cat. Of custard we will speak no more But lest you miss my metaphor Though godliness may custard near There is more than one flavor here. Some things, certainly, ain't got that swing, But does that mean they don't mean a thing? Though reflexive swinging may glide from the tongue It fadges clearly to leave some things unswung. One day we'll strive for excess to atone. Eat kippers sans custard and leave Mozart alone. (Copyright =A9 2001 Denis Titchenell Permission hereby granted for non-commercial copying, transmission, and posting provided this copyright notice is included) Nevertheless, there actually IS A RECIPE for "Kippers and custard" which you can try for yourselves.....I wish you every luck in the world. Kippers with Custard 1.5 pounds kippers 3 large eggs 1.25 cups light cream 1 teaspoon fresh ground black pepper 1 ounce butter 4 shallot; finely chopped 2 tablespoons capers; whole 1 tablespoon coriander leaves, fresh 1/2 lemon; juice of Skin kippers and remove as many major bones as possible. Shred the flesh. Place the shredded kipper into a pan with shallots, lemon juice and butter and cook gently. Remove from the pan and cool. Mix with capers and coriander. Divide mixture into two lightly buttered ramekin molds, or make it in a single larger buttered dish. Mix together the cream and eggs and season well with black pepper and pour over the kipper mix. Place into a hot water bath and cook in a 350 F oven for around 25-35 minutes (if using individual ramekins but one big dish will probably take an hour to cook) until the custard is set. Finally, a KIPPER JOKE:- 1st Kipper "They say smoking is bad for you." 2nd Kipper "I don't care! I've been cured." Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- Bob Conway <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > I knew that Yorkshire folk were partial to kippers > and jam, - but I have > never heard of kippers and custard before. The > whole idea seems far > removed from organ sound, - however, Colin usually > knows where-of he > speaks, - maybe he can give us all an idea of what > kippers and custard > actually tastes like! > > I expect that it is a Yorkshire delicacy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
(back) Subject: RE: from an old frump From: "Daniel Hancock" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:33:12 -0600 The majority of American reed organs operate on suction, not pressure.=20 Daniel Hancock OK, you guys, go ahead, call me an old frump, Goody-two-shoes, whatever you=20 want. But I am offended by "suck" as in: From: "John L. Speller" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 06:41:48 -0600 AND: From: "Keith Zimmerman" <email@example.com> > Andy said, "Tracker organs suck!" > > No, Reed organs suck. I hear the word "suck" enough in the "outside world" - now I have to read=20 it PipeChat? I would truly appreciate all efforts to avoid offensive=20 language in PipeChat. Sincerely, Fran Walker
(back) Subject: RE: broken record, here From: "TheShieling" <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 04:41:40 +1300 >Sorry to blow the comparison of Wurlitzer and Schnitger "diapasons" apart, but we are really talking chalk & cheese. Colin, You're not blowing anything apart. Your comments about mouth parts, = voicing etc. is all absolutely right. That was the point I was making - scaling is no indication of tone quality or power, other things remaining equal. As both you and I are saying, when other things are NOT equal, then the fun starts. As for the Alkmaar pressure, I would suggest that you are not correct. I'm willing to be corrected, but I've read a number of times that that entire organ is indeed on 4.5" wind. Baroque builders did not have pressures way way down as sometimes builders of the 1960s and 1970s thought. One reason was that at very low pressures it's not only far more difficult to create stable reeds, but even more than that, it's far more difficult to create stable wind. Ross
(back) Subject: Re: Gregorian Chant From: "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:08:18 -0600 Hello, Paul: > Here's a web site that seems to have quite a lot about Gregorian Chant. > > <http://silverstone.princeton.edu/chant_html/> This website page cannot be displayed. F. Richard Burt ..
(back) Subject: one-footed village organists From: "Liquescent" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:29:49 -0800 In the case of the vast majority of amateur organists who populated the average church organ benches, I doubt it. When the 1907 seven-stop Estey was removed from my mother's rural Methodist church, the bottom octave of the pedal-board was quite worn .... the rest was pristine. A funny story about that ... the organist was a stereotypical school teacher / piano teacher (albeit married); her repertoire (and the choir's) came exclusively from the Lorenz organ and choir mags. When I was in college, her daughter was being married, and she asked me to play the organ for the wedding. Afterwards, she came up to me and said, "what did you DO?? I've NEVER heard that old organ sound THAT good!!" I muttered something polite, but the truth of the matter was I had played with both feet (chuckle). Cheers, Bud Daniel Hancock wrote: > These were the days, remember, when the right foot sat more or less > fixed permanently to the swell pedal and the left foot danced about > mostly in the lowest octave of the pedal. > > > > John Speller > > > > Surely this is an over-generalization! > > > > Daniel Hancock >
(back) Subject: RE: broken record, here From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 08:34:21 -0800 (PST) Hello, Sorry to disagree Ross, but by way of example, I have a booklet from a CD collection of 24 organs in the Groningen region, which gives specifications and wind pressures etc. Only ONE organ uses a pressure greater than 76mm (2.5") and THAT pressure was used for the pedal organ at about 90mm (2.75" ?) The period covered is between about 1650 and 1830, and most of the organs were rebuilt or enlarged from their original state during the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Some of those organs are by Schnitger, whilst the rest are Dutch. In many of the Dutch organs, the reeds are very stable within themselves, but do tend to walk out of tune with changes of tempertaure. However, a clue to how the Dutch still think:- A visiting Dutch recitalist complained that couple of reeds were out of tune before the start of his recital. He turned to me and said, "Have YOU not tuned the organ to-day?" I later found him tuning the Positive, just to get it spot on. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- TheShieling <TheShieling@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > As for the Alkmaar pressure, I would suggest that > you are not correct. I'm > willing to be corrected, but I've read a number of > times that that entire > organ is indeed on 4.5" wind. Baroque builders did > not have pressures way > way down as sometimes builders of the 1960s and > 1970s thought. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
(back) Subject: RE: from an old frump From: "Andy Lawrence" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:25:41 -0500 Someone had mentioned that he'd seen a couple of pipe organs running on suction. Impossible, I'm pretty sure. But I just thought of a way it = might work. Put a suction blower on the sancuary! You'd have to get everyone inside the building, close the doors, and have everyone put on their = oxygen masks. Then fire it up, and whatever you do stay clear of the stained = glass windows! ;) It'd be the next best thing to having the service on top of mount everest! Talk about taking the Austin AirChest (or whatever they call that) idea to = the next level! Hey, they say the room is an essential part of the organ, = right? Of course, there'd be some tuning issues cuz air supply to the organ would = be coming from outside, but that'd be the least of the issues... not to worry. ;) Andy On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:33:12 -0600, Daniel Hancock wrote > The majority of American reed organs operate on suction, not > pressure. > > Daniel Hancock > > OK, you guys, go ahead, call me an old frump, Goody-two-shoes, whatever > you > want. But I am offended by "suck" as in: > > From: "John L. Speller" <firstname.lastname@example.org> > Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 06:41:48 -0600 > AND: > From: "Keith Zimmerman" <email@example.com> > > > Andy said, "Tracker organs suck!" > > > > No, Reed organs suck. > > I hear the word "suck" enough in the "outside world" - now I have to > read > it PipeChat? I would truly appreciate all efforts to avoid > offensive language in PipeChat. > > Sincerely, > Fran Walker > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related > topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org > Administration: mailto:email@example.com > List-Subscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:email@example.com> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com