PipeChat Digest #4943 - Tuesday, November 30, 2004 Re: the simulator by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> RE: one-footed village organists by "Daniel Hancock" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Gregorian Chant by "Paul R. Swank" <email@example.com> one-footed village organists by "Keith Zimmerman" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Criticisms by "Charlie Lester" <email@example.com> PipeChat IRC this evening, by "Bob Conway" <firstname.lastname@example.org> spinets by "Liquescent" <email@example.com> Advent-Christmas organ recital in Houston by <Norms0549@aol.com> Re: Gregorian Chant by "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Real Wind Pressures by <TubaMagna@aol.com> Re: Kippers and custard! by <DERREINETOR@aol.com> an advert of interest by "Nathan Smith" <email@example.com> Re: an advert of interest by "F. Richard Burt" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: an advert of interest by "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Re: broken record, here by "bobelms" <email@example.com> Dec. 10 Holiday Event on Rochester Wurlitzer (cross-posred) by "Kenneth Evans" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sacred Heart RC by "Judy A. Ollikkala" <email@example.com> Re: broken record, here by "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Re: Real Wind Pressures by "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com>
(back) Subject: Re: the simulator From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:29:39 -0500 At 04:52 AM 2004-11-28 -0800, you wrote: >Hello, > >I think money is probably the deciding factor in any >project; pipe or electronic. You get what you pay for. > >The very best electronic organs are now "knocking at >the door" so-to-speak, but they are certainly not >cheap. Perhaps we should regard them as "less >expensive." > >For the majority of us, who do not own vast acerage of >prime peanut growing land, an electronic is something >we have in the home for practise purposes; where our >imaginations can circumnavigate the obvious >deficiences. > >That said, the progress of electronic instruments has >been phenomenal in the past 25 years, and with another >25 years, we may ALL be able to enjoy something which >is remarkably "authentic" in our own living spaces. > >Interestingly, many of the high-end electronic >installations make a fairly good job of imitating the >typical symphonic instrument, but I have yet to hear >one which even comes close to the peerless majesty of >the best authentic baroque organs, or the arresting >"canned lightning" sound of a Schulze; both of which >are very "Principal chorus" biased. > >Perhaps John has a point. > >Does anyone KNOW why it is almost always the >Principal/Diapason sounds which let the electronic >side down; especially with the cheaper products. > >Please, let's not enter into the endless round of >pipes v. electronic......I just want to know WHY the >Principal/Diapason chorus causes such problems, when >everything else seems to sound quite acceptable. > >Regards, > >Colin Mitchell UK > >........Some stops seems to work OK on electronics....... but not = Diapasons > or Principals nor 16 pedal Bourdons. I'm not quite sure why...... Colin and John, I don't have the last word here, but having been in the business for 25 years to build a better mousetrap so to speak, here are a few of the ideas = I have to build a better electronic organ. I must say, although the Principal/Diapason chorus is difficult to accurately reproduce, it should be no more difficult to do than say, a comparable number of flutes (flute chorus?), or a reed chorus. And certainly in the lower end models there tend to be compromises in many different areas, from amount of waveform storage, number of generators, # of audio channels, # of speakers, and quality of speakers (and amplifiers). One cannot build a good chorus and have it all come through the same audio = channel. Electronic mixing of signals is different than acoustic mixing. So one needs to spread out the principal chorus through at least = 6 to 8 audio channels, preferrably even more. That way you get independent output generators (speakers) working together in space, much like pipes. Makes a huge difference. Also, in sampled organs, more numerous, and longer samples help a lot. That way you get a more realistic "picture" of what the original recorded pipe(s) sound like. With the prices of memory going down constantly, this can only improve. With real time synthesis, the important thing is computing horsepower, and = having a good voicer. Results can be impressive. But getting back to the audio system, there is still a difference between the way the pipes make the actual sound, versus the way speakers operate. Speakers have a piston-like conical movement to move air, which is directional, and has a beaming effect into the room or space. Some expensive speakers are bi-polar, and so have sound coming from front and back, but these are generally not used on electronic organ installs. = Pipes tend to make sound in a spherical manner, and move much more air, especially in the bass region. So the coupling to the room is different. To me electronic organs (in general) have a much greater db falloff than pipes, as one moves away from the sound source. To me for = the most part, pipes speak to you, speakers speak at you. Just my thoughts......... Arie V. P.S. Electronic organs (the best ones) will sound fantastic in 25 years. That is if there still is an organ business then.
(back) Subject: RE: one-footed village organists From: "Daniel Hancock" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:41:38 -0600 > These were the days, remember, when the right foot sat more or less > fixed permanently to the swell pedal and the left foot danced about > mostly in the lowest octave of the pedal. >=20 > =20 >=20 > John Speller >Bud wrote: >In the case of the vast majority of amateur organists who populated the average church organ benches, I doubt it. >When the 1907 seven-stop Estey was removed from my mother's rural=20 Methodist church, the bottom octave of the pedal-board was quite worn=20 .... the rest was pristine. Sure, I know that to be the case, too. =20 But the suggestion that the Bassoon (presumably the bass continuation of the oboe in the swell was only an octave in range--the oboe taking the upper four octaves) was put on a separate stop by organ builders for the reason of providing extra clarity in only the lowest octave of the pedal--when coupled--seems absurd to me. =20 There must be another reason for the practice. Daniel Hancock
(back) Subject: Re: Gregorian Chant From: "Paul R. Swank" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:53:26 -0500 Hi, Sorry that URL doesn't work. It is the one that comes up, but you have to = use this one apparently to get on board... <http://www.music.princeton.edu/chant_html> At 11:08 AM 11/29/04, you wrote: >Hello, Paul: > > > Here's a web site that seems to have quite a lot about Gregorian >Chant. > > > > <http://silverstone.princeton.edu/chant_html/> > >This website page cannot be displayed. > >F. Richard Burt > > >. > > > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org >Administration: mailto:email@example.com >List-Subscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:email@example.com> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org>
(back) Subject: one-footed village organists From: "Keith Zimmerman" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:23:42 -0500 List, I wonder if this is why there were soooo many spinet organs purchased by = small churches. Worse yet - many were probably donated by = well-intentioned parishioners. I've never been able to play a spinet very well. Being an amateur - = possibly, not even a "glorified" one - some of you might extrapolate = that to my playing in general. Anyway, I actually felt more at ease = when sitting at the 4/86 Schantz at a church I attended for a few years = than I would at the console of a spinet with its offset keyboards and = its single octave of short pedals. While I've generally been able - = even since early in my lessons - to play the hymns as written, I've = never been quite quick enough with the bass line to limit the bass to a = single octave. I think many of these village organists - I prefer to speak of the ones = who have received NO training - simply use the pedals to play the bass = note of whatever chord is used in the harmony. I suddenly had to become an organist one Easter weekend when I was 14. = Our church purchased a used Conn with 2 61 note manuals and a 25 note = pedalboard. I knew enough about organ to suppose that I was to play the = bass part on the pedals while my left hand mainly played the tenor part. = I practiced "Christ the Lord is Risen Today" for a couple hours until I = had the moving bass part of the last measure of each line down well = enough for our small congregation. I was too compulsive to simplify = that measure to 3 bass notes (as if I was playing an autoharp). = Christmas hymns always seemed to have a rather active pedal part, so I = had to practice extra during this season. Thanks, Keith P.S. Sorry about offending others with my contribution to the "suck" = thread. I tried to do a little research in some slang dictionaries to = determine if that expression was actually profanity (such as things like = dad gummit or dag nabbit) or just an expression that simply sounded = foul. I haven't been able to get an answer. I even discussed it with = an English teacher at our church after hearing it used several times by = some teenagers in the van I drove on a Youth trip. Anyway . . . sorry.
(back) Subject: Criticisms From: "Charlie Lester" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:53:48 -0800 =3D-> And remember that we, too, will be the subject of similar criticism by the succeeding generation(s) - that is, if they feel that what we have written is worth the reading of in the first place ! <-=3D Especially -- and God Help Us if it is so! -- if they base their assessments on the drivel that's posted to the Internet.......!
(back) Subject: PipeChat IRC this evening, From: "Bob Conway" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:09:49 -0500 All members of PipeChat are invited to join us in the PipeChat IRC any Friday and Monday evening - beginning at 9.00 PM Eastern Time. To find out more about the Chat room, or how to get into it, go to PipeChat-L web page at http://www.pipechat.org/ You will find out all you need to know to join us. Tonight at 9.00 PM, - I hope that we will see you there. Cheers, Bob Conway
(back) Subject: spinets From: "Liquescent" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:18:33 -0800 Spinets in church ... WOW! ... that brings back some memories (chuckle) .... the Baldwin and the Thomas had the easiest pedals to play, as I recall ... they were longer, and thicker, and further apart. Hammond spinet benches were too high ... they always gave me a back-ache. And Hammond's 12-note pedals (most of the rest had the upper C) were a real pain. OTOH, I used a Hammond Spinet in the choir room for years (no room for a spinet piano ... it was a TINY room), but I sat in a chair, rather than using the bench. After the new church was built, when folks heard the church organ needed replaced (a dysfunctional late Hammond/Suzuki with an AGO console), spinets came out of the WOODWORK (chuckle). I accepted the donations and put them in Sunday School rooms ... on the whole, they require less maintenance than the junky upright pianos people used to foist off on churches. In one way, Hammond spinets were the most useful for playing music ... if you set the exact same combination on the drawbars for both keyboards, you could play on both keyboards as if you were playing on one keyboard, and you at least had the upper range that was missing from the bottom keyboard. I had an Estey spinet for an orgue du choeur in one church where the silly organ-builder had put the console in the chancel and the pipes above the west doors (no gallery, just a flower-box). There was nothing soft enough on the pipe organ to accompany the Chant, and Chant was mostly what the choir sang ... the room was dead, so the Chant NEEDED accompaniment. The Estey fit quite nicely next to the pipe organ console. Eventually they put an 8' Gedeckt and a 4' Principal in the chancel and did away with the Estey. Cheers, Bud
(back) Subject: Advent-Christmas organ recital in Houston From: <Norms0549@aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:26:10 EST Hi, All, The Houston Chapter of the American Guild of Organists will = present an Advent-Christmas organ recital tonight at 7:00 PM at First = Presbyterian Church of Houston, 5300 Main. The program will consist of: Chorale Preludes from the Orgelbuchlein for Advent, Christmas, and the New Year by Bach, performed by Robert Lynn Variations on "Adeste Fideles" by Gaston Dethier, performed by Norman Sutphin As part of the program, the appropriate carols will also be sung. = Hope to see some of you local people there. Now, it's off to practice! Norman Sutphin
(back) Subject: Re: Gregorian Chant From: "F. Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 14:07:30 -0600 Thanks, Paul: Contact with Princeton's Chant site. F. Richard Burt .. > Sorry that URL doesn't work. It is the one that comes up, > but you have to use this one apparently to get on board... > > <http://www.music.princeton.edu/chant_html> ..
(back) Subject: Real Wind Pressures From: <TubaMagna@aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 16:10:24 EST Plenty of organs were "restored" badly. Part of what went on was the miscalculation of modern inches from centuries-old measurements without = making (or knowing) the appropriate adjustments. I wonder how many pipes were cut = apart at the languids to drop the cutups, with the languids shaved down to fit = the butchered pipes. Hence, low wind, low cutups, no nicking -- but was = somebody covering their tracks? One more thing: Basilique de la Madeleine a Saint-Maximin Jean-Esprit and Joseph Isnard 1774 Wind Pressure: 3-1/4" (which strikes me as higher than 2-1/2") Sebastian M. Gluck New York City ..
(back) Subject: Re: Kippers and custard! From: <DERREINETOR@aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:53:10 EST My family, originally from the "black country" liked mushy peas, kippers = AND jam--but never all at once! What a combination, kippers and custard. What a striking image. Craving kippers on buttered white bread for tea, Bill H. Boston, MA
(back) Subject: an advert of interest From: "Nathan Smith" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:55:27 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Hello list...=0D =0D I was wondering if any builders here had any reaction to the Marshall = and Ogletree advert in the latest TAO magazine?=0D =0D Best,=0D =0D Nathan
(back) Subject: Re: an advert of interest From: "F. Richard Burt" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:30:17 -0600 Hello, Nathan: =20 Maybe we should ask what was your reaction to the ad. =20 We could start with impressions of men who are looking=20 at the ad and wondering what it might mean to the future=20 of our organbuilding enterprises. =20 Would like to know what you think. =20 Appreciatively, F. Richard Burt =20 =20 .. Hello list... I was wondering if any builders here had any reaction to the=20 Marshall and Ogletree advert in the latest TAO magazine? Best, Nathan ..
(back) Subject: Re: an advert of interest From: "Arie Vandenberg" <ArieV@ClassicOrgan.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 18:44:17 -0500 At 05:30 PM 2004-11-29 -0600, you wrote: >Hello, Nathan: > >Maybe we should ask what was your reaction to the ad. > >We could start with impressions of men who are looking >at the ad and wondering what it might mean to the future >of our organbuilding enterprises. > >Would like to know what you think. > >Appreciatively, >F. Richard Burt > > >. > >Hello list... > > I was wondering if any builders here had any reaction to the >Marshall and Ogletree advert in the latest TAO magazine? > > Best, > > Nathan Nathan, I suggest you go and hear one in person. Then you may know better your reaction to the ad. As far as I know, there is only one installed, the one in Trinity Church, Wall Street, NYC. Be brave, go down to lower Manhatten, and see and hear the installed instrument. You will definitely have a reaction to it. I know, I did. Arie V.
(back) Subject: Re: broken record, here From: "bobelms" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:06:46 +0800 Excuse me Colin but 76 mmm =3D 3+ inches and 90 mm is 3.6" not too far = away from the pressures mentioned by Ross. Bob Elms.. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Mitchell" <email@example.com> To: "PipeChat" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 12:34 AM Subject: RE: broken record, here > Hello, > > Only ONE organ uses a pressure greater than 76mm > (2.5") and THAT pressure was used for the pedal organ at > about 90mm (2.75" ?) >
(back) Subject: Dec. 10 Holiday Event on Rochester Wurlitzer (cross-posred) From: "Kenneth Evans" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:45:51 -0500 Rochester's own theater organist Tim Schramm will present a concert on the = RTOS 4/23 Wurlitzer to celebrate the year-end Holiday Season. This event will be held in the NEW Auditorium Theatre, 875 East Main Street, = Rochester, NY 14605 on Friday, December 10 at 8 PM. Tickets at only $15 each will go = on sale at the box office at one hour before the concert start. You are invited to visit our website at http://theatreorgans.com/rochestr/ = for concert details, driving directions and much more. Enjoy this holiday season with a program of a wonderful variety of musical favorites. Submitted by: Ken Evans, firstname.lastname@example.org
(back) Subject: Sacred Heart RC From: "Judy A. Ollikkala" <email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:19:34 -0500 I suspect Bud is referring to Sacred Heart RC church on Wolcott St. in Waterbury CT which has a Johnson 3 manual, 36 rank tracker from 1892, restored in 1981 by Richard Hamar. This organ is a treasure, and the church is well aware of this. It holds OHS Historic citation No. 83. Judy Ollikkala
(back) Subject: Re: broken record, here From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:32:06 -0800 (PST) Hello, My apologies all round. Bob is quite right. That's the hazard of using a double-sided tape measure as a quick calculator! (I was reading 76mm as 66mm) Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- bobelms <email@example.com> wrote: > Excuse me Colin but 76 mmm =3D 3+ inches and 90 mm is > 3.6" not too far away > from the pressures mentioned by Ross. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
(back) Subject: Re: Real Wind Pressures From: "Colin Mitchell" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 21:50:52 -0800 (PST) Hello, The restorer's art seems to be at its best in Holland, where they have always taken restoration very seriously. In fact, the almost "standard" 76mm wind pressure I quoted (which turns out to be almost exactly 3" wg) is found on most old Dutch organs covering the period 1600 or so, right up to 1830. SOME of these remain unrestored, and any subsequent work has been in the nature of repairs. Even where new divisions have been tacked on, the old seems to have been left well alone. The usual "improvements" seem to have been restricted to the replacement of a 2ft flute with an 8ft Viol, but they often left the old pipes on top of the organ cabinets, which future generation re-discovered and put back in! In fact, it is astonishing just how authentic many Dutch organs are, even though Haarlem was changed radically in a number of ways. The Bavo restoration was not at all typical.....not that it ruined the instrument. However, everyone seems to agree that it SOUNDS different to what it did before, and if that be the case, then the restoration was really a re-build on the part of Marcussen. I cannot speak for what might have gone on elswhere, but in Holland, most organs were never ruined in the first place, and even the 19th c re-builders seemed to follow the traditional ways of building and voicing....techniques which didn't seem to change much for a number of centuries In most Dutch restorations, the attention to fine detail is impressive. Regards, Colin Mitchell UK --- TubaMagna@aol.com wrote: > Plenty of organs were "restored" badly. Part of > what went on was the > miscalculation of modern inches from centuries-old > measurements without making (or > knowing) the appropriate adjustments. I wonder how > many pipes were cut apart > at the languids to drop the cutups, with the > languids shaved down to fit the > butchered pipes. Hence, low wind, low cutups, no > nicking -- but was somebody > covering their tracks? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com