PipeChat Digest #4805 - Tuesday, October 5, 2004
 
Re: Was: renewal music...to me
  by "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com>
Class on Buxtehude by Kerala Snyder (cross posted)
  by "Stephen Roberts" <sroberts01@snet.net>
Re: renewal music...to me
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Re: renewal music...to me
  by "Scott" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Re: renewal music...to me
  by "Scott" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Re: Renewal music...to me
  by "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com>
RE: Renewal music...to me
  by "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com>
Re: Good thoughts and prayers
  by <Myosotis51@aol.com>
Ellington, jazz for church
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
Re: renewal music...to me
  by "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com>
"fresh"
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: "fresh"
  by "Scott" <montre1978@yahoo.com>
Re: Ellington, jazz for church
  by <Georgewbayley@aol.com>
spitta
  by <BlueeyedBear@aol.com>
Re: spitta
  by "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu>
Re: renewal music...to me
  by "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net>
the problem isn't early music ...
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
 

(back) Subject: Re: Was: renewal music...to me From: "Beau Surratt" <Beau.Surratt@theatreorgans.com> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 05:56:58 -0500   Glenda...       One word.....AMEN!!!!!!!!!!     Blessings, Beau Surratt Director of Music and Organist First United Lutheran Church, ELCA 6705 Hohman Ave. Hammond, IN 46324      
(back) Subject: Class on Buxtehude by Kerala Snyder (cross posted) From: "Stephen Roberts" <sroberts01@snet.net> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 04:43:54 -0700 (PDT)   Dear Friends, Last night my organ students and I were invited to the home of Kerala = Snyder, one of the world's foremost authorities on the music of Dieterich = Buxtehude. This class was in preparation for our study tour of the = Netherlands and North Germany in January, during which we will visit a = number of historic organs and have classes with Pieter Van Dijk, the organ = professor of the Amsterdam Conservatory. Kerry greeted us at the door of her charming old house in New Haven, and = ushered us into the living room. She didn't waste any time at all: after = introductory remarks and the usual pleasantries; Kerry first had us look = at the only original manuscript sources that we have of Buxtehude's music, = which are vocal works, including a series of cantatas. She described how = these pieces came to be preserved, since they were sent as presents to = Buxtehude's friend, Dueben, and they were therefore preserved in Lund. Kerry then handed us a nifty little handout that was a key to the signs = normally found in German organ tabulature. Like any great teacher, rather = than explaining the handout in detail, she asked questions that drew us = into consideration of the questions at hand. She then handed us another = sheet that contained music which she said was a section of an organ work = by Buxtehude. She asked the students to guess what kind of piece it might = be; from the texture and the entries of the voices from top to bottom, my = student Juan Mesa guessed that it was a fugue. I said "I know what this = is!" and Kerry said, "Well, let the others figure it out." As it turned = out, the section was the beginning of the first fugue from the Buxtehude = Praeludium in g minor, BuxWV 149. Kerry went around the room, and asked = everyone to decipher a measure at a time, which we did. We went about a = dozen measures into the work, into the entry of the answer to the subject. = It was a fun way to learn how editors and scholars go about deciphering early musical notation. My four organ majors are learning four pieces by Buxtehude right now in = preparation for our trip: the g minor Praeludium, the d minor Praeludium, = the Passacaglia in d minor, and the very familiar Toccata in F. Kerry = gave us another handout which included the opening measures of the = Praeludium in g minor, both from the original sources and from the major = editions. Kerry then discussed the edition of Philipp Spitta in the 19th. = century, and the sources that Spitta had used for it. We then looked at = the famous problem of the ostinato; since Spitta only had rather late = sources in score at his disposal, that accounted for his interpretation of = the ostinato figure as GGCDE-flatCD. That is exactly how the ostinato = appears in the Berlin manuscript and the copy by Agricola, which were the = only sources that Spitta had. We then looked at the ostinato in the Lund = manuscript tabulature, which clearly shows the first two notes of the = ostinato as GB-flat, as it appears in the later editions of Hedar, Beckmann, and the new Belotti edition published by Broude. = Then Kerry discussed another problem: the beaming of the opening figure in = the opening section. We saw from the tabulature why Belotti lists this = figure as groups of four and two and some other editions simply interpret = this figure as sextuplets, since the tabulature has a "6" before each = group. In barely legible vertical strokes, however, there are little = groups of four and two. We then went on to what I call the "basso continuo" section of this = piece, in which Hedar puts the bass voice in the pedal. The tabulature = sources (for example, Lund) tell us nothing about what belongs in the = pedal, and leave it up to the performer to decide as a performance = decision and a matter of interpretation. The score sources (for example, = Berlin and Agricola) clearly interpret this section as being played by the = hands. Kerry also showed us how some of the sources use red ink for = sections to be played by the pedal. In a couple of hours, I had more = questions answered about this music than I had during the course of the = past 35 years. We saw from the Spitta edition that he was the person who first = erroneously called these works "Prelude and Fugue". In every other = respect, Spitta was an extremely careful and scrupulous editor. After = hearing Kerry speak on this subject and discussing the various editions, = we came away with renewed respect and awe for the genius and scholarship = of this great man, Philipp Spitta. We also learned that it was very = fortunate that Spitta and other nineteenth century editors had included = the Toccata in F in fine and accurate editions that they had made, since = the only manuscript source that existed for this piece was destroyed = during World War II. Kerala Snyder is a charming lady who has an encyclopedic knowledge of this = music. It was a great privilege and a pleasure to have the opportunity to = learn about editions and see what they really are: merely a scholar's = interpretation of the available evidence and an opinion of what the best = reading of the text might be. The students were very enthusiastic about = this class, and said that they had learned a tremendous amount from this = experience. I was glad that I could give my students this opportunity to = learn from this great lady, but most of all to see her excitement, = enthusiasm and love for this subject. It was truly an evening that we = shall never forget. Stephen Roberts Western CT State University, Danbury, CT USA  
(back) Subject: Re: renewal music...to me From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 05:39:26 -0700 (PDT)   Hello.   .....and I thought "phallic masculinity" was restricted to chamades!   What does this tell us about lady organists?   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK   --- Gfc234@aol.com wrote:   > > In a message dated 10/4/04 9:52:55 PM, > nicemusica@yahoo.com writes: > > > > > > To me, when I think of renewal music, I thik of a > situation where the organ > > is a key part of worship........   > > As long as we stay in these boxes, people will > continue to say that the > > organ is "phallic...masculinity". Thats what the > problem is now     __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail  
(back) Subject: Re: renewal music...to me From: "Scott" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:40:39 -0500   Not sure what it means, but I'll put my 2 cents in.   I live in Champaign and work for a rather large catholic congregation, = about 1500 members. Two years ago, there was a director of music that = chose music that was basically unsingable to the congregation but it was = music from the 60's that she liked. She always used to tell me that she = was thinking of the congregation and that they needed something that = speak to them. BS I say.   Congregations are not stupid. They don't need music to be lowered in = quality to relate to them. Think of all the doctors and lawyers and = university people that live in your congregations. I would be = embarrassed to sing some of these things that GIA is putting out....(I = use GIA as an example because they have sound files on their website.) = I used a saying......If you would be embarrassed to have that stuff = playing in your car with your windows rolled down, you shouldn't play it = in church.   Thankfully, she is no longer at my church and we have decided to do = mostly traditional music (Palestrina, Bach, Byrd, Proulx...etc) We have = a newsletter every month, and there are at least 10-20 new members each = week to our church. In these past two years, I have noticed more and = more singing at the church. (I have been at this church for 9 years.) = It is no longer necessary to have a cantor screaming at them at the = front of the church to "inspire" them to sing. I have spoken with other = catholic congregations, and their attendance has exactly gone done.   Of course, we have lost a couple of people to other churches because = they use tambourines and rock beats. But I feel we can weed out of few = and gain a lot more that respect good quality. Contemporary music can = be done at good quality, don't get me wrong, but it was never successful = in my church. The building is not suited for it, the architecture, and = the spirituality cries for something different.   Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St. Champaign, IL 61820 217.390.0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net   In a message dated 10/4/04 9:52:55 PM, nicemusica@yahoo.com writes:         To me, when I think of renewal music, I thik of a situation where the = organ is a key part of worship, yet the musician is open minded to = tastefully implementing new music. For example, going to the piano = occasionally to offer a Psalm Prelude of John Coultraine or a liveley = rendition of Come Sunday by Ellington. This an also mean using the more = tasteful, not-so-Velveeta souning tunes like Be Not Afraid (yuck) or = "dumb down" tunes. Using hymn-based organ music (and not just the = Orgelbuchlein or Schubler chorales) is also nice, and something that = aids in preservation of the instrument. Resoures by Michael Burkhardt and David Cherwein are great for = tastefully renewing music. I learned alot by listening to Burkhardt in a = hymn fest and in a master class. It was very renewing what he did with = the hymn accompaniments for Leoni, Merles Tune, and By The Babalonian = (spelling?) Waters. He used all the colors of the organ and came out of = the box that keeps so many people down and the organst going out the = door. As long as we stay in these boxes, people will continue to say that = the organ is "phallic...masculinity". Thats what the problem is now. We = cant expect people to make churches grow if we dont offer some tasteful = newness. We will continue to see doors close and get 50 members to come = if we dont stop playing Titolouze and Scheideman eeery Sunday. Offer = some familiar and sing-along tunes. Even Diane Bish wrote here hymn = arrangements after many in her congreagation said that they would love = to hear some familiar tunes from time to time. And yes, Im not afraid to = say I use some in my job. Im not above it. I also offer them ligitamate, = tuneful pieces by Bach, but I mix things. Never do i do anything as = dated as a verse of a Pange Lingua. They don't know that chant, or that = style. Some Sunday I may pull out a couple of Bach Choral preludes from = the OB, and play a postlude from a Genevox/Church Street or a Mayhew = Collection. =20       what the heck is all this supposed to mean?         Gregory Ceurvorst 1921 Sherman Ave. #GS Evanston, IL 60201 847.332.2788 home/fax 708.243.2549 mobile gfc234@aol.com gfc234@nextel.blackberry.net  
(back) Subject: Re: renewal music...to me From: "Scott" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:43:51 -0500   Talking about music selections. I played a Froberger Toccata two Sunday's =   ago. I have never received so many compliments before on something I = pulled out 5 minutes before the 8am mass. Just shows you the type of people that =   our at my church. Young and old, they like what we do there. Maybe I should consider staying....   Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St. Champaign, IL 61820 217.390.0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net    
(back) Subject: Re: Renewal music...to me From: "Emily Adams" <eadams@cinci.rr.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 10:17:39 -0400   There's little I can add to Glenda's excellent thoughts on this subject. = For my Lutherans, whenever possible I select preludes and postludes based on = one of the morning's hymns. Fortunately there is a huge volume of possibility = in a range of musical periods and styles. In order to attempt to eventually play something everyone will find meaningful, at one time or another I'll play everything from Bach to Lorenz, although I do try to avoid music I personally think is of dubious taste and quality.   Should I use a hymn-based piece that isn't sung that day, I list a = reference to the number in the hymnal. I don't know if anyone ever looks it up or = not, but I like knowing it's there in case they want to <g>.   In my opinion hymns are far and away the most important part of the = service from a musical standpoint. Along with the liturgical responses, they're = the part of the service everyone joins together and participates in musically. As far as I'm concerned, the whole reason for putting a religious message = in rhyme and setting it to music is to reinforce and strengthen the message = and transform it into something that people may even recall from time to time later. So I want my preludes and postludes to further that objective.   As Glenda says, it's good to know where Ellington (for example) is appropriate and inappropriate. I'd submit that the task of figuring that = out is *much* more difficult in a non-liturgical setting. The simple absence = of formal constraints can all too easily turn into an "anything goes" = attitude. I'm not sure that The Church in general has been well served by the = movement to try to make church music "relevant," as opposed to the notion that = church music should be something unique to Sunday morning, uplifting and specifically different from what people are exposed to elsewhere. It's an old argument, I guess, and not anything that will ever be resolved here.    
(back) Subject: RE: Renewal music...to me From: "Will Light" <will.light@btinternet.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 16:10:28 +0100   That reminds me of when Ellington WAS relevant in church. It was 1987 = and Coventry Cathedral was celebrating the 25th anniversary of the new = building. My wife Ros was asked to sing there in Ellington's "Praise God and = Dance". The conductor was Johnny Dankworth and she was accompanied by the = National Youth Jazz Orchestra. It is a day which will live on in our memories. = Not only for the stratospherically high notes she had to sing, but for the = fact that it was her highest paid solo ever, on a pounds per bar (measure - little bit of translation there!) basis!!   Will Light Coventry UK   -----Original Message----- From: pipechat@pipechat.org [mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org] On Behalf Of Emily Adams Sent: 05 October 2004 15:18 To: PipeChat Subject: Re: Renewal music...to me   As Glenda says, it's good to know where Ellington (for example) is appropriate and inappropriate. I'd submit that the task of figuring that = out is *much* more difficult in a non-liturgical setting. The simple absence = of formal constraints can all too easily turn into an "anything goes" = attitude. I'm not sure that The Church in general has been well served by the = movement to try to make church music "relevant," as opposed to the notion that = church music should be something unique to Sunday morning, uplifting and specifically different from what people are exposed to elsewhere. It's = an old argument, I guess, and not anything that will ever be resolved here.     ****************************************************************** "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org>    
(back) Subject: Re: Good thoughts and prayers From: <Myosotis51@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 11:40:37 EDT   Hello Bud, Me too, darn it! And, for the SECOND time! Victoria     In reference to your comment: You got it, my friend. I'm going through the same thing with the Social Security Administration.   Cheers,   Bud   Milo R. Shepherd wrote:   > All, > > I have been going through a tough time and some of the conversations = and > chats on here have kept me going....thank you for that. I am currently > awaiting for the Vet Admin to decide on my disability. This decision = is > being made now. I could go into detail with the reasoning but often = ours is > not to reason but to do. I hope that you will keep me in your thoughts = and > prayers that the VA will do the right thing for me. > > Thanks. > > Milo  
(back) Subject: Ellington, jazz for church From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:52:38 -0700 (PDT)   I remember one of the reasons I was so happy about getting the Choral = Scholar stent at the Cathedral back home was because the music was always = fresh, and for the one Sunday the worship was special because of the MS = Conference of Church Music and Liturgy. That was my first time hearing = Come Sunday by Ellington and I fell in love. In some churches it may not = have a place. But, It was certainly very touching to me.       From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!
(back) Subject: Re: renewal music...to me From: "T.Desiree' Hines" <nicemusica@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 09:09:44 -0700 (PDT)   Noel and Glenda both offered very good insight on this.   I, of course, always thought the renewal movement came from Baptists, and = evangelicals. Im open to more insight, so do offer     From Desiree' T. Desiree' Hines Chicago, IL 60610 ---------------------------- For Compositions by Desiree' Frog Music Press www.frogmusic.com ------------------------------- FOR CONCERTS BY DESIREE' http://concertartist.info/bios/hines.html --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
(back) Subject: "fresh" From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 10:00:44 -0700   Music doesn't have to be contemporary to be "fresh" ...   I'm in the process of editing Victoria's Office Hymns for Sundays and Principal Feasts in English, with the alternatim chant verses written out, etc. ... one reason so much of this music is inaccessible is that even some modern Collected Works only give the incipit of the chant, or in the case of Byrd, only the polyphonic verses ... Renaissance choirs were expected to know the chants and texts of the hymns from memory, so they didn't NEED the chant verses written out ...   That was a digression (chuckle).   In the course of DOING it, I fell in love with Victoria's music all over again. There are some HEART-RENDING dissonances (on the proper words, of course ... suffering, pain, tears, etc.) and the PASSION of the music comes through, even though he and Palestrina were contemporaries, and Victoria was also at Rome for a good deal of his career.   Palestrina, by contrast, is much more cool, cerebral, detached. Comparing settings of the same text by Victoria and Palestrina, sometimes Palestrina seems almost TOO perfect.   Another thing, which I already knew, is that the way to really KNOW and OWN a piece of music is to do what Bach did: copy it out. Not everybody has the leisure to do that, of course, but if you DO, you discover things you never saw or heard before, even in pieces you've played or sung for years.   Most congregations have never heard Victoria's hymns. Yes, the English is a compromise, and I often have to hunt through a half-dozen translations to find one that will put the English accents in the same place as the Latin, or the right words on the dissonances, but this music is as "fresh" and "new" and engaging as it was the day it was = written.   I think we deprive our congregations when we don't sing and play master-works such as these.   The quest for something "new" and "fresh" should BEGIN with the masters = ...   For instance, how many play the SMALL versions of Bach's Clavieruebung III, or the big Christ lag in Todesbanden trio with the c.f. in the alto in the misc. choral-preludes, or the youthful works in Vol I of the W/S?   I found a STUNNING (and VERY simple) setting of "Improperium exspectavit cor meum" ("Thy rebuke hath broken my heart") by F.X. Witt in a discarded volume of 19th century RC church music. I transcribed it into English, and my choir sang it on Palm Sunday (it's the proper text of the Offertory in the Anglican and RC liturgies) ... afterwards, people said, "What was THAT? It gave me CHILLS! It was SO expressive of the WORDS!" ... and the piece is virtually nothing but slow-moving block chords ... it never gets loud, it never gets fast, it never gets particularly dissonant ... but it conveys the TEXT superbly. BUT ... it requires CAREFUL preparation, HUGE amounts of breath for the LONG phrases, and attention to subtleties of SMALL changes in dynamics, and to SMALL dynamic accents on key words ... the sequence of chord changes and suspensions at "they gave me vinegar to drink" is as fine as anything in Bruckner.   My point: it's not necessary to raid the catalogs of GIA and Oregon Catholic Press and Lorenz on a monthly basis to find church music that's "fresh" and "new" ... it just takes some digging, and after that the courage to program what you dig up (grin).   Cheers,   Bud              
(back) Subject: Re: "fresh" From: "Scott" <montre1978@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 12:43:53 -0500   Bud,   I like your point on the oldies but goodies. My favorite we pull almost every year is the Byrd "Ave Verum" Those f's and F#'s against each other = in the tenor and bass are enough to make you cry. In fact, we have brought members of the congregation to tears over it. (in a good way, of course)   Scott Montgomery 619 W Church St. Champaign, IL 61820 217.390.0158 www.ScottMontgomeryMusic.net    
(back) Subject: Re: Ellington, jazz for church From: <Georgewbayley@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 13:44:25 EDT   5 October 2004   Dear Desiree et al.   Ellington's "Come Sunday" is an extraordinary piece. Here at St. Peter's = in Lewes, Delaware, though we subscribe to the great Anglican choral = tradition from the music of William Byrd to John Tavener, we are not exclusive.   Come to St. Peter's to worship and you hear the congregation sing with = great enthusiasm some renewal hymns (whatever that means) alongside the great traditional hymns. You also will hear the parish choir sing the music of = Dave Brubeck, Howard Goodall, George Fenton, and similar composers.   Cheers,   George  
(back) Subject: spitta From: <BlueeyedBear@aol.com> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:25:40 -0400   hello, all. i have a strange question, and i know it's a long shot...   but does anybody know how to get a copy of the second volume of the = two-volume set of spitta's book on j.s. bach? it was originally a = 3-volume set, and then dover bound it as two volumes, but this edition is = now out of print. i have the first volume and am looking for the second. = any ideas?   scot  
(back) Subject: Re: spitta From: "Randolph Runyon" <runyonr@muohio.edu> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 16:50:56 -0400   Go to abebooks.com.     Randy Runyon Music Director Zion Lutheran Church Hamilton, Ohio runyonr@muohio.edu         on 10/5/04 4:25 PM, BlueeyedBear@aol.com at BlueeyedBear@aol.com wrote:   > hello, all. i have a strange question, and i know it's a long shot... > > but does anybody know how to get a copy of the second volume of the = two-volume > set of spitta's book on j.s. bach? it was originally a 3-volume set, = and then > dover bound it as two volumes, but this edition is now out of print. i = have > the first volume and am looking for the second. any ideas? > > scot > > ****************************************************************** > "Pipe Up and Be Heard!" > PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics > HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org > List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org > Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org > List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> > List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> > List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> >    
(back) Subject: Re: renewal music...to me From: "Octaaf" <octaaf@charter.net> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 18:00:28 -0500   Glenda wrote: "Is there anyone on the list playing Titelouze and Scheidemann every Sunday? Just wondering. I've not attended any of those services."   Glenda, you got it spot on! But to answer your question ... on occasion, yes I do play Titelouze and Scheidemann on Sunday ... usually upon = request. I'm fortunate that the congregation actually enjoys hearing Early music during prelude and communion.   Cheers,   Tim      
(back) Subject: the problem isn't early music ... From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 18:11:37 -0700   The problem is playing early music WELL.   If your organ can't handle it, leave it alone.   If you aren't sympathetic to it, leave it alone.   Titelouze and Scheidemann CAN be gorgeous, but it's HARD work to MAKE them gorgeous, particularly on an indifferent electro-pneumatic organ tuned in equal temperament.   Cheers,   Bud