PipeChat Digest #4808 - Thursday, October 7, 2004
 
Re:  OFF-TOPIC (for some): the other shoe drops
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: Ellington, jazz, Goodall and Rutter
  by "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk>
Patience...
  by "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com>
Re: OFF-TOPIC (for some): the other shoe drops
  by "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk>
Apologies...Re: Patience...
  by "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com>
Re: Apologies...Re: Patience...
  by "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net>
OFF-TOPIC: offensive? curious ...
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: Acoustic delay theories: Vierne Messe Solenelle
  by "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com>
Re: OFF-TOPIC (for some): the other shoe drops
  by "Dr. Amy Fleming" <docamy@alltel.net>
Re: OFF-TOPIC (for some): the other shoe drops
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
why I took offense--off topic
  by <RMB10@aol.com>
Re: OFF-TOPIC (for some): the other shoe drops
  by "Burgie" <beejayusa@cox.net>
OFF-TOPIC: finding offense where there should be none
  by <quilisma@cox.net>
ON-TOPIC: a cautionary tale
  by "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net>
Re: why I took offense--off topic
  by "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com>
 

(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC (for some): the other shoe drops From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:03:33 EDT   >Well, we found out what the 20-foot-deep hole in our front yard is about =   >... they're doing soil tests to see if this property will support >foundations for multi-story condos.   <Snip> What does this have to do with organs? I get my postings in digest form = and posts like this waste a ton of space. There's no way for me to delete the = "off topic" posts from the digests. >*I* still wonder who BUYS these $250K condos and $500K houses they're >building Well, my mother lives in CA in the Bay Area--on the Peninsula, where I = grew up. She's a nurse, a widow. She lives in a $400K townhouse. I have = friends in Santa Barbara, not a place with much of any kind of industry except tourism, and land there starts at a minimum of $1 million an acre. My = college pastor and his wife, sold their home in the exclusive Montecito area, and = moved to downtown SB, to a smaller home when their boys went off to college, = since they no longer needed a large home. They love their historic 1920's Arts = and Crafts style home in the historic district of Santa Barbara. They paid = cash when they bought the house. Some other friends in SB just bought a 2 bedroom home on a little lane in downtown Santa Barbara, asking price was = $1.25m. So, yes, there are plenty of people buying these homes. In the = neighborhood I grew up in, the average home is selling for well over $1m. My mother opted for a townhouse because as a widow, she didn't need a house, she = wanted something with minimal upkeep, since she is still working--out of choice, = not necessity. Some people choose to live in these areas. I live in South Carolina--the cost of living is quite low compared to CA, but if my house = was in San Francisco, Santa Barbara, or San Diego, my little brick bungalow--which = is paid for--would go for at least $750,000. I find posts like Bud's quite offensive. However, I will tell you, that = as part of my church's development, we will be building Habitat for humanity =   homes on our property. We have set aside some of our acreage and had it = zoned for residential use. We also have some set aside for a Hospice and for = an assisted living/nursing home. So there are churches who are doing things = to help. I know that we're not the only church doing it, but you have to = get out and look for them. Off my sopabox now. Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: Ellington, jazz, Goodall and Rutter From: "Colin Mitchell" <cmys13085@yahoo.co.uk> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 04:18:44 -0700 (PDT)   Hello,   I liked George's reply, which said so much in a very few words.   If music is a "living" art, then there MUST be interaction between sacred and secular, or we end up living in musical "ivory towers." (As good a description of an organ as any!)   Very local to me is the old Roman/Victorian spa town of Ilkley (we have HISTORY), associated with which is the popular Yorkshire folk-song, "On Ilkla' moor b'aht 'at" .....this translating as "On Ilkley Moor without a hat." It is THE original eco-song, about a man who is advised to wear a hat lest he might die of cold, and should he die, he would be eaten by worms. Then the worms would be eaten by ducks, then "we" would eat the ducks. Consequently, our man on Ilkely Moor would have been Sunday Lunch! (I didn't actually think that Ducks ate worms, but it's called artistic licence I suppose).   Now, the tune to this particular folk-song was very well known in the Victorian era as that used locally for "While Shepherds watched their flocks by night."   Consequently, there was an amusing inter-play between folk song and hymnody, and all in the best possible taste.   It was quite common for my grandfather's generation to sing hymns as they worked in the mills and factories.....my uncle sang hymns to his dairy herd.   I suppose there are still a few things we do rather well here in the UK, and one of them is "middle of the road" church music, which has wide appeal and yet retains a sense of sanctity. Howard Goodall is a fine example of this, and who could not like his beautiful Psalm 23 "The lord is my shepherd" as used for the TV series "The vicar of Dibley."   Of course, the supreme example of the "genre" is to be found in the output of John Rutter, and every Christmas, the churches and concert-halls dance and rock to his wonderful tunes and arrangements.   They make a delightful change from Tallis, Byrd and Tomkins.   Of course, this sort of musical interaction is not restricted to the US or the UK. History is littered with similar examples, and another country which has given us great examples of "folk" melody for church use, has been the Czech Republic.   Folk music of quality has inspired some of the greatest of all compositions....Bartok, Kodaly, Vaughan-Williams, Tchaikovsky etc etc.   Inspiration comes from a variety of sources, and if folk music has inspired much of Europe, then America certainly inspired me when I last visited. Right there, on the streets, in the malls and markets, there is (still?) a fantastic wealth of live music, superbly performed in a variety of styles. I recall being quite intrigued by a junior jazz band playing at Quincy Market, Boston.....the music was in their bones.   If America had only one fantastic musical thing, then it would be the quality associated with the black-music tradition, which inspired their "white masters" to write some outstanding music, of which Gershwin was the supreme example. The black tradition of jazz and blues is a goldmine of tunes and rhythms which have set the feet of the whole western world tapping. Thanks for that!   I think it is worth embracing for liturgical use.   This is, I suspect, the long version of what George was saying!   Regards,   Colin Mitchell UK     --- Georgewbayley@aol.com wrote:   > 5 October 2004 > > Dear Desiree et al. > > Ellington's "Come Sunday" is an extraordinary piece. > Here at St. Peter's in > Lewes, Delaware, though we subscribe to the great > Anglican choral tradition > from the music of William Byrd to John Tavener, we > are not exclusive.       _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Patience... From: "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 04:30:25 -0700 (PDT)   A direct e-mail to you, Monty....   [snip]   > > I find posts like Bud's quite offensive.   Please try to be patient with Bud. If I not wrong, he is very frustrated with his current living situation. His last position was also frustrating to him in many ways.   I'm guessing that perhaps this list (and maybe one other) is one way he can maintain some sanity, by not only venting his frustrations sometimes, but also by sharing his musical knowledge with us and being helpful.   Yes, life it not always easy. I, for example, am recovering from a foot operation...I'm a little older than Bud, by the way... (I had the same operation before on the other leg... calcium deposits on the heel had to be removed, and my ripped Achilles tendon put back in place)... Since this operation is sorty of the "second time around," I'm able to deal with the recovery period better because I have an idea of how things are going to go during the recovery period...   I'm very grateful that where I work so many people ask how I'm doing, and when I will be O. K. Yes, for some people they would be annoyed/frustrated that others ask so much. But for me, I'm very grateful... if people didn't ask I would wonder if I had offended a person or some people...   Often life can be very frustrating... For example, we may want to find a suitable employment situation, but it can be like finding a needle in a haystack...   All too often, for example, we may want to find something on the internet, but if Google or some other search engine cannot bring the information up for us, we don't know where to search...   I'm so glad to hear through your postings that you are happy at your present church... I assume that you are also continuing to work at a funeral home as well...   I must also say that Mary Lib Avinger was patient when she taught me... it had been ten years since I had had organ lessons, and she knew exactly how to get me going again... In one of her short notes she wrote me that she misses playing the organ and the handbells, but I'm sure since she has macular degeneration of the eyes she realized that she just had to say "goodbye" to that part of her life... I didn't hear from her last year, but I guess she is getting along O. K.   Best wishes,     Morton Belcher       God bless,   __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC (for some): the other shoe drops From: "Harry Grove" <musicman@cottagemusic.co.uk> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 12:29:11 +0100   ----- Original Message ----- From: <RMB10@aol.com> To: <pipechat@pipechat.org> Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 12:03 PM Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC (for some): the other shoe drops     > However, I will tell you, that as > part of my church's development, we will be building Habitat for = humanity > homes on our property. We have set aside some of our acreage and had = it > zoned > for residential use. We also have some set aside for a Hospice and for =   > an > assisted living/nursing home. So there are churches who are doing = things > to > help.   I love going 'off-topic' ..... it feels so naughty ! Rather like being = back at school and hoping that the teachers won't discover you doing whatever = it is you shouln't be doing !   Here, in 'smokey-hollow', it's the Parish Council who are involved in re-developing things (and I know about it, 'cause I'm one of the Councillors). We're trying to develop a) low-cost housing, so that youngsters won't have to leave the village = when they marry ... b) a new buriel ground, so the oldsters won't need to leave the village = when they die (and be buried in the town gound) ... c) low-level accomodation for the retired ("Back 'Em, Stack 'Em an' Rack 'Em" before they die ...) d) possibly a new school, since the Infant (pre to yr3) school is being re-defined as Primary ( up to yr.6).   Possibly the order of the above should have been re-written, but then, = which came first; the chicken or the egg ?   This is giving us 'zoning' problems because apart from being a small village, and one listed as a 'Conservation Area' because of it's age, = beauty and historic buildings, we're over-populated by NIMBY's (Not In My Back Yard) who have paid (sky) high prices and want to live in a chocolate box village - all black and white cottages - and not have modern (if sympathetic) houses and a buriel ground behind their properties.   Harry Grove [a.k.a. a musicman rejoicing in being deliciously 'off-topic']   PS We're rehearsing Goss (I heard a voice), Bach (Vater, unser in Himmelreich), Farrant (If ye love me) , Mozart (He is blessed .. the Benedictus) and a new piece from RSCM tonight.    
(back) Subject: Apologies...Re: Patience... From: "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 07:37:34 -0700 (PDT)   Ladies and Gentlemen of the list:   I don't know if the fault was with my computer or with myself (my keying-in of information)...   But my face is red, because I had not intended my "Patience" posting to go to the list...   My apologies...   Morton Belcher fellow list member...       __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com  
(back) Subject: Re: Apologies...Re: Patience... From: "Alan Freed" <acfreed0904@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 10:53:16 -0400   On 10/7/04 10:37 AM, "littlebayus@yahoo.com" <littlebayus@yahoo.com> = wrote:   > But my face is red, because I had not intended my > "Patience" posting to go to the list... > > My apologies... > No sweat, Morton. We all profited by reading it. I'll add only that Bud has paid his dues on this list and others, huge multiples of times, over = and over. If he wanted to write about the tides at San Diego, it would be a privilege for any of us to read it.   Alan  
(back) Subject: OFF-TOPIC: offensive? curious ... From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 08:32:23 -0700   I have always regarded pipechat as an online community of friends and colleagues ... like most families, we have our ups and downs and cat-fights; then we hug and make up.   Perhaps Monty doesn't know that my partner and I are both disabled; we recently very nearly lost this cottage; thanks to the generosity of many friends, including some on this list, we were able to bring the bills current, and make arrangements for my second-oldest foster son (of nine that I've raised, BTW) to move down from Portland to take care of us.   Had we lost the cottage, we would have simply had to walk away from everything except our clothes and my books. Neither of us is able to do a move, and we can't afford to have anyone else do it for us.   I'm in a wheelchair now, and very seldom leave the house; my partner is a long-time AIDS survivor (15 years); current law would separate us if either had to go into an assisted living facility or hospice, because we aren't married (and can't marry). I doubt either of us would survive that for very long ... we have been together for a VERY long time.   To bring this somewhat on-topic, I HAVE applied for a couple of church jobs, even though it would be a TREMENDOUS effort simply GETTING there, but both turned out to have west-gallery choirs and organs and no handicapped access ... that's true of most older churches in San Diego, which were "grandfathered" out of both the Americans With Disabilities Act and state handicapped access laws. That was also why I had to resign my last position in Newport Beach. I could no longer climb the steps to the choir loft.   I always assumed that I would play until I dropped, or at least until around age 70 or so ... but two strokes and two heart attacks intervened. Being a church lay-worker all my life, I have no savings or pension to fall back on; my Social Security disability application is winding its way through the appeals process. They can't seem to comprehend why an organist in a wheelchair can no longer play the organ (chuckle) ... Your Tax Dollars At Work.   Again, thank you ALL for your generosity and support. We're both survivors; we'll make it through this.   Cheers,   Bud                  
(back) Subject: Re: Acoustic delay theories: Vierne Messe Solenelle From: "Andy Lawrence" <andy@ablorgans.com> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 11:10:25 -0500   This won't help you in your immediate situation, and doesn't directly = answer your question because I'm sure Vierne didn't do this, but where I play the =   organ is actually on one end of the church, the console on the other, and almost not in the room. So we set up a monitor for the organist with a = mic at the pipes and a monitor speaker near the organist, with a volume = control on the console.   Note that it does not work, nor is it intended for, assisting in registration. People have thought it was for that purpose and been disappointed. There's no substitute for wandering around the room and listening. But for giving you instant feedback of what you are playing, = it works great. Perhaps in extreme situations one could even wear = headphones, though we've never needed to try that, and never will because of the visibility of the organist to the congregation.   Andy   > > So, what is common practice in such situations? I mean, even if the > gallery organist follows on closed-circuit TV, by the time the sound > reaches the choir, then reaches me... by the time that my pipes' > sound reaches the choir and her in the gallery.... it's just mind > boggling. What is the ideal set up or strategy? >       A.B.Lawrence Pipe Organ Service PO Box 111 Burlington, VT 05402 (802)578-3936 Visit our website at www.ablorgans.com  
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC (for some): the other shoe drops From: "Dr. Amy Fleming" <docamy@alltel.net> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 13:41:42 -0500   Dear Bud - I have always wondered why you have stayed in that area with = the cost of living so high. There are nice places to live all over the = country. The pace is slower too, making life less stressful (I used to live in FL = and fight traffic to and from work - UGH!) Amy    
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC (for some): the other shoe drops From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 12:15:13 -0700       Dr. Amy Fleming wrote:   > Dear Bud - I have always wondered why you have stayed in that area with = the > cost of living so high. There are nice places to live all over the = country. > The pace is slower too, making life less stressful (I used to live in FL = and > fight traffic to and from work - UGH!) Amy > >   1. my partner's family is here 2. AIDS services (for him) 3. cardiac trauma unit five minutes away (for me) 4. we've lived here for thirty years (except for a sojourn in Huntington Beach when I was at St. Matthew's) 5. the weather (grin) ... neither one of us can handle cold weather   We've had offers from friends in Tucson, Akron, Dallas ... but I have a fairly big extended family here who can help take care of us, move us locally, etc. ... I can't IMAGINE how we'd organize a move out of state. It put me in bed for two weeks just getting us from Huntington Beach back to San Diego.   Cheers,   Bud          
(back) Subject: why I took offense--off topic From: <RMB10@aol.com> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:06:58 EDT   Let me explain why I took offense to the original post that Bud wrote... I work two jobs to have the things I do. That is my choice and I enjoy = it. There are times, though, when I still struggle to makes ends meet. = However, the comment about the people living in $250,000 condos and $500,000 homes = in California rubbed me wrong, because those people are my friends and = family out there in the Bay Area and in Santa Barbara, which actually have HIGHER = costs of living than San Diego does. The San Francisco area, where I grew up, = has one of the highest real estate costs in the country. I took it as an = insult that I was some sort of "privileged" person because I grew up in that = kind of environment--the battle between the "haves" and the "have nots." If I = came across harshly, I apologize, but living in those expensive places isn't = all it's cracked up to be, either. I grew up there, went to college there, = and left. I'm much happier out of California and living in the South. The = pace of life is slower here, the cost of living is less, the people are more genuine, and church positions are more available. However, it's just = the judgement call about wealth and development that I felt that set me off. = If a woman (my mom) who was a widowed at age 28 with an 8 month old baby (me) = can make it on her own in California, anyone can. The quote that my pastor uses = at church a lot is something that I keep reminding myself: "To whom much is given, musch is required." I've been blessed with a lot of things, and I = need to give of my time, my money, and my talent. My mother instilled that in me =   even as a child. I don't take for granted what I've been given or what I = have. I work hard for it and will always do so...I'm willing to share it, BUT I =   get angry when I feel like I'm being shamed for being "privileged". Monty Bennett  
(back) Subject: Re: OFF-TOPIC (for some): the other shoe drops From: "Burgie" <beejayusa@cox.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 13:08:22 -0700   We stay here because it has some of the nicest weather in the world which really helps when you have asthma. It gets to cold I get pneumonia, Too hot/dry can't breathe. It's also as close as I can get to family without killing myself. It is real cheap to live up there but in the winter it gets down to the low teens and in the summer it gets up over 100 with humidity at 95+%I left San Diego in 1982 and it took me over 20 years to come back home. Even though I was born and raised in a small hick town in Northern CA I have always considered San Diego Home. If I had to I would live on the beach rather then move back home or worse. I even thought I would like to live in Las Vegas which is considerably cheaper till I spent a week there and my eyes swelled shut and lungs tied in a knot. We have had several offers for various parts of the country which we are grateful for but I don't plan on going someplace to spend the rest of my life in a hospital. Out of last five years in Northern CA I spent 2 in various hospitals due to pneumonia and paralysis due to neuropathy. Since moving to Southern CA I have regained the use of my legs, my t-cell has gone up and my viral load has dropped to non detectable. Until I moved to San Diego, other the doctors appointments I left the house 1 day a month to do grocery shopping and lay in supplies for the month. Then I would have to recuperate for a week. I had no friends or family around me other then Bud. Since moving to San Diego I have taken over the grounds maintenance for our complex, I have done a lot of repairs in our house, I 'vet made friends which I do odd jobs for, my energy level has improved a thousand fold. Sure we could move someplace cheaper if I wanted to go back to being a hermit and miserable. This is probably more then you ever wanted to know about me but it explains why I won't leave San Diego. What good would it do to save money if you had no energy to spend it or enjoy life.   Burgie   PS Personally the stress is what keeps me going. I flourish under stress. I use to be a short order cook. LOL     Dr. Amy Fleming wrote:   >Dear Bud - I have always wondered why you have stayed in that area with = the >cost of living so high. There are nice places to live all over the = country. >The pace is slower too, making life less stressful (I used to live in FL = and >fight traffic to and from work - UGH!) Amy > > >****************************************************************** >"Pipe Up and Be Heard!" >PipeChat: A discussion List for pipe/digital organs & related topics >HOMEPAGE : http://www.pipechat.org >List: mailto:pipechat@pipechat.org >Administration: mailto:admin@pipechat.org >List-Subscribe: <mailto:pipechat-on@pipechat.org> >List-Digest: <mailto:pipechat-digest@pipechat.org> >List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:pipechat-off@pipechat.org> > > > >    
(back) Subject: OFF-TOPIC: finding offense where there should be none From: <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 13:32:43 -0700   I don't resent rich people ... I just don't happen to be one (grin).   I wasn't criticizing those who can afford $250K condos and $500K houses .... I was merely commenting on the cost of living in California.   As to "making it" in California, I did ... 1976-1993 ... until I became disabled the first time. At one point I was working FOUR jobs in order to do it, but I did it.   I recovered from that, and worked full-time again 1997-2003, during which time I had a family of four to support on $36K per annum.   At that point, the body gave out.   I'm sixty years old.   I've had two strokes and two heart attacks.   I'm in a wheelchair.   I CHOSE church music, and I often CHOSE to accept lower-paying jobs because of the liturgy, or the music, or the organ, or the choir.   I drove a truck, kept books in a gym, set type in a graphics house, and worked as a social worker to make ends meet.   *I* resent the implication that I'm some sort of slacker or "welfare queen."   I have paid into Social Security since I was 14, when First Presbyterian in Tallahassee required me to get a Social Security card so they could deduct taxes from my $25-a-month salary as evening organist (!).   As a church lay-worker, I'm not eligible for state disability insurance or unemployment insurance. Churches MAY opt into those programs, and some DO; St. Matthew's chose NOT to.   I don't REQUIRE anyone's sympathy, or anyone's help. Those who gave either, gave it freely. And for that I thank you from the bottom of my heart.   Cheers,   Bud    
(back) Subject: ON-TOPIC: a cautionary tale From: "Liquescent" <quilisma@cox.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 13:38:40 -0700   I would say all of this is ON-TOPIC, as it points out the dangers of choosing a career in church music.   Bud      
(back) Subject: Re: why I took offense--off topic From: "Noel Stoutenburg" <mjolnir@ticnet.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 2004 16:58:28 -0500   Monty wrote:   >However, it's just the >judgement call about wealth and development that I felt that set me off. = If a >woman (my mom) who was a widowed at age 28 with an 8 month old baby (me) = can make >it on her own in California, anyone can. > Not sure how old you are, your out of college, and have moved away, which puts you probably no less than 30; being a denizen of alist devoted to pipe organs makes it likely that you've had several celebrations of your 30th birthday anniversary, too, even if you haven't started keeping track of the number of times you've celbrated your 39th. My point: I suspect if your mother were in California today, trying to do what she did then, she might have a much harder time of it. On the whole, as a society, we in the U.S. are a much, well, maybe "meaner" isn't the right word, but "more selfish" bunch than we once were. =     Here's a song which I'd like to see, inspired by "America needs you, Harry Truman", set with organ accompaniment (just to keep this more or less on topic): "America would have been better today without you, Spiro and Richard."   ns